"Bob Crantz" wrote
{snipped}
We need more lawyers!

Bob Crantz - Master of verbal irony!
Scout

wrote...
If you care about society, ......

You are absolutely correct - IF you care about society. Most young people do
not, at least as much as they care about themselves. They've been told
correctly "If you think schools and teachers are tough wait til you get a job
and a boss!" so they are terrified of having to actually work, whether at a job
or for a technical degree.

Looking back at my own life, I struggled thru engineering courses while business
and liberal arts majors partied on dad's dime ... and ended up working for them.
Except for basics like math and physics most of what I learned was soon OBE
(Anybody need a vacuum tube circuit designed lately?). If I had it to do over
I'd opt for law then politics, or bag education entirely and go into the Jesus
business.

"Vito" wrote in message
...
wrote...
If you care about society, ......

You are absolutely correct - IF you care about society. Most young people
do
not, at least as much as they care about themselves. They've been told
correctly "If you think schools and teachers are tough wait til you get a
job
and a boss!" so they are terrified of having to actually work, whether at
a job
or for a technical degree.

Looking back at my own life, I struggled thru engineering courses while
business
and liberal arts majors partied on dad's dime ... and ended up working for
them.
Except for basics like math and physics most of what I learned was soon
OBE
(Anybody need a vacuum tube circuit designed lately?). If I had it to do
over
I'd opt for law then politics, or bag education entirely and go into the
Jesus
business.


Praise the Lord!

I fall to my knees weeping!

Lord!

You have seen the light! Glory!

Vito, the Goldwater Conservative, sees with clear vision!

Amen! Amen! Amen!!!!

There is still one thing you left out. You can apply your science knowledge
to become wealthy and famous!

That's right!

The answer is PSEUDOSCIENCE.

That's right! Selling hope in the form of pseudoscience to willing victims
who will pay vast sums to be told, analyzed and treated with dubious
scientific practice!

Healing magnets!

Polarized water!

Meridian alignment!

Power line shields!

Healing crystals!

Sound therapy!

Aroma therapy!

Color therapy!

Fung Shui!

It's all there!

Putting the great discoveries of SCIENCE to dubious and questionable
practice!

This exciting growth industry merges SCIENCE, FAITH, MYSTICISM, and SLIGHTLY
ILLEGAL PRACTICES to make you RICH!

Cash in on your science training now!

Amen!

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:42:19 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Scout" wrote in message
...
"Bob Crantz" wrote
*Why is he calling for more math and science majors?

Because virtually every school district in the US, with PhD'd
administrators who know zero about technology preparation, are ok with
vocational schools filled with special ed students and behavioral
problems. The real technicians of tomorrow will hold engineering degrees.
Everyone else will just be pumping too much grease into zirc fittings
because they can't read the spec sheets.
Ken Gray, researcher at Penn State Univ, preaches against the misuse and
abuse of vocational schools by their sending districts, and argues that
the vocational schools should be populated by the middle 50% (by academic
performance) of students. The upper (gifted) and the lower (learning
disabled) should be left in the hands of the special education teachers,
and not in the hands of the engineers and technicians who've been hired to
teach their expertise. Sending schools do tend to keep the gifted
students, but purge their classes of problematic kids, rationalizing that
kids who can't read and won't do homework can learn hands-on how to build
a working robot or program a CNC milling machine.
I contend that a competent HVAC technician is better educated than most
guidance counselors!
Amen!
Scout

Funny you mention this. I recently attended a charter school meeting where
the teachers discussed how they taught mathematics. Many parents were there.
Everyone sat around nodding to the importance of math education (like a
mantra). Yet, of the parents I knew, not one used math beyond addition and
subtraction in their jobs. I asked a few teachers to tell me what
mathematics is in one sentence. They couldn't.

You should expand your circle of parental acquaintences. I ran a
manufacturing plant making a woodworking machinery, had control of
design engineering and just about everyone who worked there used math
past simple addition and subtraction. Including machine operators on
the shop floor who were required to learn advanced metrology,
Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing, and statistics for SPC and
DOE. Contributing to value add

Before that I worked for a company that produced offshore oil field
equipment. Ever wonder how the trigonometry to convert the structure
designs to welded reality gets done? By some of those parents you
don't know. Contributing to value add.

Most learning comes from the home, with the school system being a
facilitator. These kids would learn mathematics better if they saw the
importance of it applied in life. Where will they see that?

Mathematics skills, to be kept must be practiced regularly.

Then, if one works hard at acquiring and maintaining the skills, they are
usually branded as an "overachiever".

First one is pushed to accomplish something difficult, then when it is done
they are earmarked with some dysfunction and pushed into the corner.

When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. Travel the road less travelled, think
out of the box. I even go as far to say that crime may pay and point out
many successful white collar and organizational criminals. Then I point out
that lawyers do all this and more legally!

Become a lawyer - people will fear and respect you!

Most people adopt the attitude that it is better to behave in a manner
that you never need a lawyer. The fear is that a circumstantial or
random encounter will put you in the position where the sharks can
start circling. There certainly is no respect for a profession where
the goal is to transfer money from one entity to another and skim 40
percent as it goes by. There is no value added with this process.

The best (or least ethical) of this breed do become wealthy. That is
not the same as garnering respect.

And of course the above is a gross generalization with approrpiate
apologies to those few ethical and productive members of the
profession. I know several.

Become a mathematician - people will laugh!

There is some truth to that. They laughed Demming right out of the
country. And he organized the Japanese to take over the auto and many
other industries. Wonder who laughed last.

Amen!

Bob Crantz, preparing youth today to run the world tomorrow!

And doing a wonderful job

Amen!

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:42:19 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Scout" wrote in message
...
"Bob Crantz" wrote
*Why is he calling for more math and science majors?

Because virtually every school district in the US, with PhD'd
administrators who know zero about technology preparation, are ok with
vocational schools filled with special ed students and behavioral
problems. The real technicians of tomorrow will hold engineering
degrees.
Everyone else will just be pumping too much grease into zirc fittings
because they can't read the spec sheets.
Ken Gray, researcher at Penn State Univ, preaches against the misuse and
abuse of vocational schools by their sending districts, and argues that
the vocational schools should be populated by the middle 50% (by
academic
performance) of students. The upper (gifted) and the lower (learning
disabled) should be left in the hands of the special education teachers,
and not in the hands of the engineers and technicians who've been hired
to
teach their expertise. Sending schools do tend to keep the gifted
students, but purge their classes of problematic kids, rationalizing
that
kids who can't read and won't do homework can learn hands-on how to
build
a working robot or program a CNC milling machine.
I contend that a competent HVAC technician is better educated than most
guidance counselors!
Amen!
Scout

Funny you mention this. I recently attended a charter school meeting where
the teachers discussed how they taught mathematics. Many parents were
there.
Everyone sat around nodding to the importance of math education (like a
mantra). Yet, of the parents I knew, not one used math beyond addition and
subtraction in their jobs. I asked a few teachers to tell me what
mathematics is in one sentence. They couldn't.

You should expand your circle of parental acquaintences. I ran a
manufacturing plant making a woodworking machinery, had control of
design engineering and just about everyone who worked there used math
past simple addition and subtraction. Including machine operators on
the shop floor who were required to learn advanced metrology,
Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing, and statistics for SPC and
DOE. Contributing to value add

I know many people who have those skills. Most are unemployed. Those skills
are not advanced math. Those not unemployed are now paralegals or legal
secretaries.



Before that I worked for a company that produced offshore oil field
equipment. Ever wonder how the trigonometry to convert the structure
designs to welded reality gets done? By some of those parents you
don't know. Contributing to value add.

Today, by autocad. Back then, a very large framing square.



Most learning comes from the home, with the school system being a
facilitator. These kids would learn mathematics better if they saw the
importance of it applied in life. Where will they see that?

Mathematics skills, to be kept must be practiced regularly.

Then, if one works hard at acquiring and maintaining the skills, they are
usually branded as an "overachiever".

First one is pushed to accomplish something difficult, then when it is
done
they are earmarked with some dysfunction and pushed into the corner.

When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. Travel the road less travelled,
think
out of the box. I even go as far to say that crime may pay and point out
many successful white collar and organizational criminals. Then I point
out
that lawyers do all this and more legally!

Become a lawyer - people will fear and respect you!

Most people adopt the attitude that it is better to behave in a manner
that you never need a lawyer. The fear is that a circumstantial or
random encounter will put you in the position where the sharks can
start circling. There certainly is no respect for a profession where
the goal is to transfer money from one entity to another and skim 40
percent as it goes by. There is no value added with this process.

Great point. Where's the value added in government?

The value added in lawyers comes from future prevention of injury. Lawyers
reduce risk.



The best (or least ethical) of this breed do become wealthy. That is
not the same as garnering respect.

And of course the above is a gross generalization with approrpiate
apologies to those few ethical and productive members of the
profession. I know several.


With most people money, however gotten, earns respect. Those that can't get
money usually despise it.



Become a mathematician - people will laugh!

There is some truth to that. They laughed Demming right out of the
country. And he organized the Japanese to take over the auto and many
other industries. Wonder who laughed last.

The lawyers who sued for the x-cars and other Detroit crap.



Amen!

Bob Crantz, preparing youth today to run the world tomorrow!

And doing a wonderful job

Thank you kind sir!


Amen!
And AMEN to you too!


Frank

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:23:33 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

Bunch snipped

I know many people who have those skills. Most are unemployed. Those skills
are not advanced math. Those not unemployed are now paralegals or legal
secretaries.

Once again, you demonstrate that those that you know do not make up a
statistically relevant sample. Those skills are in big demand where I
live. I had to hire against others seeking the same skill level and
we all had a tough time. Those still in the game continue to have
difficulty




Today, by autocad. Back then, a very large framing square.

Not quite right in either time frame. I've worked in both.





Frank

In article ,
Bob Crantz wrote:
Funny you mention this. I recently attended a charter school meeting where
the teachers discussed how they taught mathematics. Many parents were there.
Everyone sat around nodding to the importance of math education (like a
mantra). Yet, of the parents I knew, not one used math beyond addition and
subtraction in their jobs. I asked a few teachers to tell me what
mathematics is in one sentence. They couldn't.

I don't think you can blame the teachers. They're struggling to teach
the basics. I think part of the problem, however, is low
expectations. It's been shown that if you expect more from students,
you tend to get more from them.

Most learning comes from the home, with the school system being a
facilitator. These kids would learn mathematics better if they saw the
importance of it applied in life. Where will they see that?

True in many ways. My pop was an engineer, master machinest, and
inventor. He forced me to learn the multiplication tables, when the
school didn't really press the issue. He also asked me to "help" him
figure out a trig problem of his when I was in grade school. I'll
never forget struggling with the concept, doing the research (which
confounded the math teacher I had when I started asking questions
about sine's, cosines, etc., and finally coming up with a very strange
answer for a dimension (1.00something), which was actually correct.

Mathematics skills, to be kept must be practiced regularly.

1+1 = ummmm...

Then, if one works hard at acquiring and maintaining the skills, they are
usually branded as an "overachiever".

In my case, I'm a chronic under-achiever. :-)

First one is pushed to accomplish something difficult, then when it is done
they are earmarked with some dysfunction and pushed into the corner.

Also true sometimes. My pop had to have a discussion with the teacher
to assure her that it was ok.

When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. Travel the road less travelled, think
out of the box. I even go as far to say that crime may pay and point out
many successful white collar and organizational criminals. Then I point out
that lawyers do all this and more legally!

Sounds like Robert Pirsig.

Become a lawyer - people will fear and respect you!

Correct, according to my mom. :-)

Become a mathematician - people will laugh!

Correct. We always laughed at them in college.



--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Katy, you have no mercy for an antisocial geek. I really had to train
myself to have what few social skills I do have. Looking people in the
eye is something I never did naturally and so had to force myself to
do. My wife tells me she can discern volumes about a person by their
eyes but I see nothing at all. My relationships with women were always
a disaster for this reason, thank God my wife is understanding.
Lawyers are overpaid because they have a monopoly. They make the laws
too. I know very few unemployed engineers. Most physicists and
engineers I have known having trouble finding jobs never even gave a
thought to starting their own business. I did not start mine by choice
but simply because it beat unemployment. I am the worlds worst manager
and if my employees cannot manage themselves they better go somewhere
else. I dont care when they work as long as they get stuff done and if
they say they work 40 hours I believe them but would never keep track.
Self motivated people seem to be able to find work.
OTOH, my wife is a teacher(Masters in Special ed Masters in counseling)
with years of experience and she puts up with the BS from the system.
I used to tell her she should start her own educational service but she
has no desire to work for herself. It baffles me but she seems happy.
The idea of becoming a lawyer always impressed me as an excercise in
mediocrity done by sorta smart people who simply couldnt think of
anything else to do. I'd call it a lack of imagination. My brother
became a lawyer which was no surprise to me as he has no imagination
but when my youngest and smartest sister (I have seven sisters) became
a lawyer I told her it was a waste of a good mind and was very
disappointed. About half of my friends are lawyers and their careers
seem really dull.
I stand corrected about the lack of scientists in TV and movies. My
ignorance is due to having almost no contact with TV or movies.
Katy, seeing what nurses do, I have no problem paying them well.

"Bob Crantz" wrote......
When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. ......

If they want to be entertainers (musicians, sports figures, actors) suggest they
instead consider the Jesus business. There a 1000s of failures for every
singer, rock band, etc. that makes it big time but even most small town
preachers earn good livings and top televangilists outearn rock stars. Good
news is you don't have to be superstitious yourself - just able to do a gig
every Sunday - nor have an expensive education.

Amen!



"Vito" wrote in message
...
"Bob Crantz" wrote......
When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. ......

If they want to be entertainers (musicians, sports figures, actors)
suggest they
instead consider the Jesus business. There a 1000s of failures for every
singer, rock band, etc. that makes it big time but even most small town
preachers earn good livings and top televangilists outearn rock stars.
Good
news is you don't have to be superstitious yourself - just able to do a
gig
every Sunday - nor have an expensive education.