You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,
But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security, quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue water
sailing.

"BrianH" wrote
http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.

Bart Senior wrote:
You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

I agree, it was such a silly comment I thought it better not
to respond. "It happens every day on performance boats" !!!

One of the bizarre outcomes of this incident was the
response of Bavaria Yachts who tried to initially claim the
yacht had hit a rock - since disproved - a panic damage
limitation exercise. All over the world, this model is being
modified to strengthen the keel mountings. But the
disquieting thing is of a company that lets such apparent
design and quality assurance failures out of the factory
door and its implication on the quality of other models,
perhaps unfairly. I hope so, judging by the vast masses of
charter boats out there from this company. Especially in the
Adriatic where this incident happened and where I also keep
my boat, which is what stimulated my interest as I see so
many there.

A damning preliminary survey report by the German marine
surveyors Zucker & Partners is here (in German):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...survey-new.pdf
And a rebuttal by Bavaria Yachts (in English) is he
http://www.sailing.hu/files/pressrelease42m_4.pdf
And the response to that from the charter company
responsible for the regatta is here (in English):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/news.php?news=16

A further preliminary survey by a Croatian consultancy (in
English) with some very revealing photographs is he
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...cro-survey.pdf

BrianH.



"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,

But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security, quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue water
sailing.


"BrianH" wrote

http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.

"BrianH" wrote in message
...
Bart Senior wrote:
You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

I agree, it was such a silly comment I thought it better not
to respond. "It happens every day on performance boats" !!!

One of the bizarre outcomes of this incident was the
response of Bavaria Yachts who tried to initially claim the
yacht had hit a rock - since disproved - a panic damage
limitation exercise. All over the world, this model is being
modified to strengthen the keel mountings. But the
disquieting thing is of a company that lets such apparent
design and quality assurance failures out of the factory
door and its implication on the quality of other models,
perhaps unfairly. I hope so, judging by the vast masses of
charter boats out there from this company. Especially in the
Adriatic where this incident happened and where I also keep
my boat, which is what stimulated my interest as I see so
many there.

A damning preliminary survey report by the German marine
surveyors Zucker & Partners is here (in German):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...survey-new.pdf
And a rebuttal by Bavaria Yachts (in English) is he
http://www.sailing.hu/files/pressrelease42m_4.pdf
And the response to that from the charter company
responsible for the regatta is here (in English):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/news.php?news=16

A further preliminary survey by a Croatian consultancy (in
English) with some very revealing photographs is he
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...cro-survey.pdf

BrianH.



"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,

But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security,
quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at
the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue water
sailing.


"BrianH" wrote

http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.





What I can't get over is how few bolts the Bavaria keels are held on by,
especially given the size of boat/keel.

My little Foxcub has _10_ keel bolts!!!

I'd trust my little boat (17'6") over a big Bavaria any day, thanks.

Christine

"Christine Sheffield" wrote in message
...

"BrianH" wrote in message
...
Bart Senior wrote:
You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

I agree, it was such a silly comment I thought it better not
to respond. "It happens every day on performance boats" !!!

One of the bizarre outcomes of this incident was the
response of Bavaria Yachts who tried to initially claim the
yacht had hit a rock - since disproved - a panic damage
limitation exercise. All over the world, this model is being
modified to strengthen the keel mountings. But the
disquieting thing is of a company that lets such apparent
design and quality assurance failures out of the factory
door and its implication on the quality of other models,
perhaps unfairly. I hope so, judging by the vast masses of
charter boats out there from this company. Especially in the
Adriatic where this incident happened and where I also keep
my boat, which is what stimulated my interest as I see so
many there.

A damning preliminary survey report by the German marine
surveyors Zucker & Partners is here (in German):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...survey-new.pdf
And a rebuttal by Bavaria Yachts (in English) is he
http://www.sailing.hu/files/pressrelease42m_4.pdf
And the response to that from the charter company
responsible for the regatta is here (in English):
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/news.php?news=16

A further preliminary survey by a Croatian consultancy (in
English) with some very revealing photographs is he
http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/ne...cro-survey.pdf

BrianH.



"Bjarke Christensen" (nej,

But this is a MATCH. It's designed for performance over security,
quality
and cost. It happens "every day" on performance boats. Just looking at
the
keel design you can tell it's not the designed to last nor to blue
water
sailing.


"BrianH" wrote

http://www.sailing.hu/files/82/82558_640x480.jpg
Here's a picture of a Bavaria Match 42 keel .....
Full photo set at:
http://www.sailing.hu/galeriak/verse...ira_mare_kupa/

Report in English at:
http://team.sailing.hu/Accident%20in%20Croatia.pdf

HTH.





What I can't get over is how few bolts the Bavaria keels are held on by,
especially given the size of boat/keel.

My little Foxcub has _10_ keel bolts!!!

I'd trust my little boat (17'6") over a big Bavaria any day, thanks.

Christine


The bolts in the Bavaria are probably a fair bit thicker than the ones in
your Foxcub.

The bolting and backing plates look OK to me. It seems the problem is that
the hull was simply not thick enough to withstand the stresses involved.
There is a nice square hole where one of the backing plates was located so
the bolts didn't let go of the hull. The hull let go of the boat.

Sorry, if it's was a bit over-populistic. What I had in mind was just that
25% of the boats in the Challenge, Volvo Ocean race and so on are facing
equipment problem. - and we don't judge these bad quality. Just "high tech".

No doubt that Bavaria 42 Match has a problem. - and thereby Bavaria as such

Sorry for the customers that spend money on these. I guess it will be hard
to get a good price on a used 42 Match without extensive, and expensive,
improvements to the hull.

I'm not especially fund of Bavaria. I just think I should counterbalance the
little group of sailors that seems to think that onle ineffective,
non-computerised oldfashioned work is "good quality".

Remember the definition of "good qulity": That is when you get exactly what
you expect. Good or bad.

Bjarke

"Christine Sheffield" wrote in message
...

"BrianH" wrote in message
...
Bart Senior wrote:
You have to be joking Bjarke! Even in racing boats,
keel bolts have backing plates. This is an obvious
error in construction and reveal serious quality control
and perhaps also a design problem.

I agree, it was such a silly comment I thought it better not
to respond. "It happens every day on performance boats" !!!

snip

Remember the definition of "good qulity": That is when you get exactly
what you expect. Good or bad.


That's an unusual definition, are you saying that the quality of a product
is defined by the expectations of the purchaser?
Would that make a supermarket own brand cheap white loaf, quality bread ?
Have you ever read "Zen and the art of motor cycle maintenance" ?

Thats the essense of quality according to the ISO9000 standard
(corresponding British Standards Institute BS 5750).

If you promise the customer a piece of crap, fast and for low price, then
it's bad quality to deliver late and for a higher price, even if the product
in it self has better data.

No, that I have not read the book about Zen. Is it relevant ?

/Bjarke


"Nigel" wrote in message
...
Remember the definition of "good qulity": That is when you get exactly
what you expect. Good or bad.


That's an unusual definition, are you saying that the quality of a product
is defined by the expectations of the purchaser?
Would that make a supermarket own brand cheap white loaf, quality bread ?
Have you ever read "Zen and the art of motor cycle maintenance" ?

Thats the essense of quality according to the ISO9000 standard
(corresponding British Standards Institute BS 5750).


I beg to differ, the essence of quality through 9001:2000 is "Continual
improvement", through setting objectives, improving your processes, and
being driven by customer satisfaction and customer focus.

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal
selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er dansker) skrev i en
meddelelse
. dk...
Sorry, if it's was a bit over-populistic. What I had in
mind was just that 25% of the boats in the Challenge,
Volvo Ocean race and so on are facing equipment problem. -
and we don't judge these bad quality. Just "high tech".

No doubt that Bavaria 42 Match has a problem. - and
thereby Bavaria as such

Sorry for the customers that spend money on these. I guess
it will be hard to get a good price on a used 42 Match
without extensive, and expensive, improvements to the
hull.

I'm not especially fund of Bavaria. I just think I should
counterbalance the little group of sailors that seems to
think that onle ineffective, non-computerised oldfashioned
work is "good quality".

Remember the definition of "good qulity": That is when you
get exactly what you expect. Good or bad.

Bjarke

Hi Bjarke,

In the late summer of 2003 we were looking at a larger -
"new/second hand" - sailboat. We were talking to several
different brokers and visiting many marinas, and what really
surprised me was, that in three cases we saw different
models of pretty new Bavarias on land with a big (big!)
whole in the hull where the aftermost part of the keel is
mounted to the hull ... Whether it has something to do with
the people sailing the Bavarias or it has something to do
with the construction of the same boats ... I don't know ...

Anyway, we decided for another boat make, and that was
fortunate enough, as we in 2005 did hit something very hard
while sailing above 8 knots in fresh wind ..., but because
of the construction of the hull and keel with a very strong
frame inside the hull on which the keel is bolted with many
bolts, the damage was not that bad (but bad enough ...), at
least, we did not miss the keel, and the boat did not leak
.... so we could continue the sailing ... but the floor in
the cabin and the keel was in pretty bad shape - and we were
shocked ...

--
Flemming Torp
'kun en tåbe frygter ikke haven'