Performance Defined
 

What constitutes performance in a sailboat design is a common point of
dissension among sailors. Let's cut to the chase. A 40 foot vessel that
sails at 10 knots on a reach, but falters at 40 degrees true is not a
great performing boat in spite of it's formidable downwind ability.
From the perspective of a designer and sailor, performance equates to
the widest range of directional velocity or VMG. In short; the higher
pointing hull is superior regardless of speed or size. A small racer
like a J24 is a better performing boat than a Catalina 42. Does this
mean the J24 is faster. Perhaps at times and in certain conditions, but
the Catalina 42 LWL will prove to be too much for the J24 off the wind.
No matter, the J24 is the better performing boat. Let's try an
off-the-wall example...a Mazda Miata vs. a Ford Crown Victoria. The
Crown Vic, used by police is a big fairly fast car. It's faster than
the Miata and can hold high speeds longer with less driver fatigue. But
the Miata is a better performing car. It's responsive
transmission/engine, fine balance and suspension make it able to turn
faster and return generous feedback to the wheel and brakes. The faster
car is not the better performing car in all cases. Performance is not
all about speed...with cars or boats.
And so it is with sailboats. A J24 is a better performing boat than a
C&C 32, in spite of the fact that the C&C is faster in many situations.
The only other true performance boats on this list are Loco's and
Donal's. You can cry and wine all day and night about it. Jeff can
claim his boat goes 200 knots downwind. Mooron can claim his boat would
fare better over 2000 miles of reaching through tsunamis. Neal can
claim he'll fly a 344% genoa generating an S/AD of 77.9. It doesn't
matter. You can all claim my interior is not suited for Atlantic
crossings. It wasn't bought for that. You can jump up and down that
she'll be uncomfortable in 10 foot swells. We won't take Thomas into
that any time soon.
We bought the best boat for our needs and conditions. What angers so
many folks here is that our choice just happens to easily eclipse
there's and that's more than they can handle.
We simply have the nicest boat here...and the best performing one as
well.

(Yes. I stole the opening from a certain book on racing. So what? It
only afirms my point.)

Capt. Robert B
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

How can you have the "best performing boat here"
if you just stated the only Loco and Donal have
true performance boats?
S.

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
: What constitutes performance in a sailboat
design is a common point of
: dissension among sailors. Let's cut to the
chase. A 40 foot vessel that
: sails at 10 knots on a reach, but falters at 40
degrees true is not a
: great performing boat in spite of it's
formidable downwind ability.
: From the perspective of a designer and sailor,
performance equates to
: the widest range of directional velocity or VMG.
In short; the higher
: pointing hull is superior regardless of speed or
size. A small racer
: like a J24 is a better performing boat than a
Catalina 42. Does this
: mean the J24 is faster. Perhaps at times and in
certain conditions, but
: the Catalina 42 LWL will prove to be too much
for the J24 off the wind.
: No matter, the J24 is the better performing
boat. Let's try an
: off-the-wall example...a Mazda Miata vs. a Ford
Crown Victoria. The
: Crown Vic, used by police is a big fairly fast
car. It's faster than
: the Miata and can hold high speeds longer with
less driver fatigue. But
: the Miata is a better performing car. It's
responsive
: transmission/engine, fine balance and suspension
make it able to turn
: faster and return generous feedback to the wheel
and brakes. The faster
: car is not the better performing car in all
cases. Performance is not
: all about speed...with cars or boats.
: And so it is with sailboats. A J24 is a better
performing boat than a
: C&C 32, in spite of the fact that the C&C is
faster in many situations.
: The only other true performance boats on this
list are Loco's and
: Donal's. You can cry and wine all day and night
about it. Jeff can
: claim his boat goes 200 knots downwind. Mooron
can claim his boat would
: fare better over 2000 miles of reaching through
tsunamis. Neal can
: claim he'll fly a 344% genoa generating an S/AD
of 77.9. It doesn't
: matter. You can all claim my interior is not
suited for Atlantic
: crossings. It wasn't bought for that. You can
jump up and down that
: she'll be uncomfortable in 10 foot swells. We
won't take Thomas into
: that any time soon.
: We bought the best boat for our needs and
conditions. What angers so
: many folks here is that our choice just happens
to easily eclipse
: there's and that's more than they can handle.
: We simply have the nicest boat here...and the
best performing one as
: well.
:
: (Yes. I stole the opening from a certain book on
racing. So what? It
: only afirms my point.)
:
: Capt. Robert B
: 35s5
: NY
:

Performance Defined
 

How can you have the "best performing boat here"
if you just stated the only Loco and Donal have
true performance boats?

Actually, Donal may have a slight performance edge...hard to say. His
boat is fast. Very close based on what I've been reading. Loco's boat
is not far behind at all. No one has anything close.

RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

Nice troll, Boobie, especially quoting a presumably "famous" book
without attribution. Thus, if anyone contradicts anything, you can
jump in say, "So you think so-and-so doesn't know what he's talking
about?"

Defining "performance" strictly as pointing ability may be of some
value to a round-the-buoys racer, but is meaningless for almost all
other sailors. I just posted the polars for two well known "high
performance" racers, which show that while they may be to achieve very
small angles, the VMG at 45 degrees is almost as good, if not better,
especially in light air. If this is true for a C&C 99, why would the
owner of the Cat 42 who doesn't race give rat's ass if his boat
"falters" at 40 degrees?

Performance is truly defined as how well something fulfills its
intended purpose. Thus, a round-the-buoys racer has to point well to
be considered "high performance." A cruiser has to do other things
well, including providing a stable, comfortable environment; well
ventilated; allowing basic living functions to continue while
underway; provide a comfortable home away from home, regardless of the
destination, plus many other attributes. A "racer/cruiser" should do
both well; if it doesn't, it can't be considered "high performance."

Further, to perform well, a boat should be used for its intended
purpose. In my opinion, a racer that is never raced, or a cruiser
that is never cruised is not a high performance boat regardless of its
pedigree. A fine philosophical point, perhaps, but someone who never
races has no credibility to claim the "best performing racer"
regardless of how the term is defined.

So maybe you have the "best performing flat water day sailer" in the
group, Bob. Congrats.


Capt. Rob wrote:
What constitutes performance in a sailboat design is a common point of
dissension among sailors. Let's cut to the chase. A 40 foot vessel that
sails at 10 knots on a reach, but falters at 40 degrees true is not a
great performing boat in spite of it's formidable downwind ability.
From the perspective of a designer and sailor, performance equates to
the widest range of directional velocity or VMG. In short; the higher
pointing hull is superior regardless of speed or size. A small racer
like a J24 is a better performing boat than a Catalina 42. Does this
mean the J24 is faster. Perhaps at times and in certain conditions, but
the Catalina 42 LWL will prove to be too much for the J24 off the wind.
No matter, the J24 is the better performing boat. Let's try an
off-the-wall example...a Mazda Miata vs. a Ford Crown Victoria. The
Crown Vic, used by police is a big fairly fast car. It's faster than
the Miata and can hold high speeds longer with less driver fatigue. But
the Miata is a better performing car. It's responsive
transmission/engine, fine balance and suspension make it able to turn
faster and return generous feedback to the wheel and brakes. The faster
car is not the better performing car in all cases. Performance is not
all about speed...with cars or boats.
And so it is with sailboats. A J24 is a better performing boat than a
C&C 32, in spite of the fact that the C&C is faster in many situations.
The only other true performance boats on this list are Loco's and
Donal's. You can cry and wine all day and night about it. Jeff can
claim his boat goes 200 knots downwind. Mooron can claim his boat would
fare better over 2000 miles of reaching through tsunamis. Neal can
claim he'll fly a 344% genoa generating an S/AD of 77.9. It doesn't
matter. You can all claim my interior is not suited for Atlantic
crossings. It wasn't bought for that. You can jump up and down that
she'll be uncomfortable in 10 foot swells. We won't take Thomas into
that any time soon.
We bought the best boat for our needs and conditions. What angers so
many folks here is that our choice just happens to easily eclipse
there's and that's more than they can handle.
We simply have the nicest boat here...and the best performing one as
well.

(Yes. I stole the opening from a certain book on racing. So what? It
only afirms my point.)

Capt. Robert B
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

Performance is truly defined as how well something fulfills its
intended purpose.


Oh, I guess that means that if the guy with the Island Packet 35 feels
his boat performs great within his goals, then that's good performance?
Sorry, Jeff, making up your own definition for sailing performance
won't cut it. Your boat sails poorly in light air, is tedious to tack
(your own) words and is weak upwind. Even compared to newer cats it's
still not a good performer. However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,
goes upwind, tacks on a dime and is able to work in light air and is
still considered a good performer against more modern designs. You
enter as many qualifications as you want but the basic facts are not
altered.
You own a cruising boat that does well off the wind, tacks badly, can't
sail well in light air, can't point, has a numb helm....all by your own
admission now less....man, I sure gotta get me one of those!


RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,

Your boat is a turtle downwind in light air [5-15kts] and you know it. In
heavier air you need to broad reach because your squirrelly boat can't run
DDW.

Fin Keeler!

CM

Performance Defined
 

However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,

Your boat is a turtle downwind in light air [5-15kts] and you know it.
In
heavier air you need to broad reach because your squirrelly boat can't
run
DDW.


Nonsense. I've already posted from 35s5 owners who've simply stated
that the 35s5 requires some experience to be fast downwind. I already
sailed it downwind in 20 knots and it was cooking. I guess I just have
the knack. (Actually the owner was on board showing me). You don't even
know enough about boats to know why her design is tricky
downwind....HINT...it aint about be squirrely. She tracks great in
fact. So try again!

John, we clearly don't agree on the 35s5. She gets a bit flustered
downwind, but that's when skill is supposed to take over! We've had her
over 12 knots more times than I can count. We agree on the upwind
balance, fin or wing she's really amazing.

Robert, congratulations on the 35s5. We've had our for 8 years
running
and the boat has been practically bullet proof. We sail her hard and
have had surfing at 15 knots. Upwind we are right there with the J105's

and other racers. I don't agree with John about downwind being tricky.
We're just about untouchable downwind, though I admit upwind is the
boat's forte, making 7 knots at 33 degrees with ease. That's slightly
better than the polars Karen sent, but remember that sails are much
better now and we spent a lot on ours!

Snap into a slim jim!

RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,

What, it sails well on port tack *and* starboard tack?? Wow!


--
Capt Scumbalino

Performance Defined
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

Nonsense. I've already posted from 35s5 owners who've simply stated
that the 35s5 requires some experience to be fast downwind. [snip the Yada
Yada Yada]

Yeah! Sure Bob!... talk to the Hand! ...Talk to the Hand!

Your boat is a Slug downwind!

CM

Performance Defined
 

Nice troll, Boobie, especially quoting a presumably "famous" book
without attribution. Thus, if anyone contradicts anything, you can
jump in say, "So you think so-and-so doesn't know what he's talking
about?"


Thanks, Jeff. But I'll tell you the truth...since we've had some fun
and actually generated some interesting sailing talk. It's not from a
book at all. I made that up just to keep certain folk at bay. Worked
like a charm! Or did it?


RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

I believe he means "all points of sail". But you
know, sailing ability was never his strong suit.
S.

"Capt. Scumbalino"
wrote in message
. ..
: Capt. Rob wrote:
:
: However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,
:
: What, it sails well on port tack *and* starboard
tack?? Wow!
:
:
: --
: Capt Scumbalino
:
:

Performance Defined
 

11. NotPony
Nov 12, 7:46 pm show options

Newsgroups: alt.sailing.asa
I believe he means "all points of sail". But you
know, sailing ability was never his strong suit.
S.


I guess he meant "terminology" but you know basic English was never his
strong suit!


RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Performance is truly defined as how well something fulfills its
intended purpose.


Oh, I guess that means that if the guy with the Island Packet 35 feels
his boat performs great within his goals, then that's good performance?

Certainly. Its a great performing cruiser!

Sorry, Jeff, making up your own definition for sailing performance
won't cut it.

Sorry Bob, you're the one making up a definition. Performance is
"fulfilling the intended purpose." Look it up.

Your boat sails poorly in light air, is tedious to tack
(your own) words and is weak upwind.

And yet, it will go upwind faster than your boat in a breeze.

Even compared to newer cats it's
still not a good performer. However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,
goes upwind, tacks on a dime and is able to work in light air and is
still considered a good performer against more modern designs.

yada yada yada. It might mean something if you raced it.

You enter as many qualifications as you want but the
basic facts are not altered.

Right. You bought a "racer/cruiser" that might be a good racer but is
a below average cruiser. Given that its hard to call it a "great
performer." Buts its no matter, you don't race and you don't cruise,
so I guess that makes you a "poor performer."

You own a cruising boat that does well off the wind, tacks badly, can't
sail well in light air, can't point, has a numb helm....all by your own
admission now less....

I own a cruising boat that can handle any conditions I'm likely to
encounter on the East Coast. It can go upwind as fast as your boat
and it flies off the wind; all with a small rig that can be
singlehanded. It has three staterooms, two with queen size bunks, all
with great ventilation, standing room and plenty of lockers. A head
and shower that you can actually use underway. A galley bigger than
many apartments have, big enough to cook a Thanksgiving dinner for
eight, who can be served in the saloon. No A/C because it don't need it.

I carry a dinghy on davits and a kayak on deck. A cockpit that 8
people can stretch out on, a foredeck made for sunbathing. I can do
100 miles and arrive for dinner refreshed. The boat is even unsinkable!

This boat has taken us from Toronto to Maine to Key West and back.
We've lived on board close to 600 nights, and still use it more than
half the summer. We're planning a trip to Newfoundland that will take
three summers to complete.

So I ask the assembled masses: which boat has or will best fulfill its
intended purpose, or putting it more simply, is the best performer:
Boobie's Bendy, or my PDQ?

Performance Defined
 

And yet, it will go upwind faster than your boat in a breeze.

Not higher than 40 degrees it won't! And not in light air AT ALL it
won't. Tedious tacking, poor in light air, numb helm boat!!!

You bought a "racer/cruiser" that might be a good racer but is
a below average cruiser.

While good performance is not open to wild interpretation with
sailboats, what makes a good cruiser certainly is. My friend cruises
his J30 and finds it to be perfect. Same for the tiny Bristol 27. Just
because you need a floating livingroom at sea, doesn't mean the rest of
the world wants that! Zikes!

It has three staterooms, two with queen size bunks, all
with great ventilation, standing room and plenty of lockers.

It's a much bigger boat, Jeff, or do you thing boats are only measured
LOA?


carry a dinghy on davits and a kayak on deck.

You have to. You sure won't have any fun sailing! Might I suggest
towing a J22?

So I ask the assembled masses: which boat has or will best fulfill its
intended purpose,

Our boat hasn't even been delivered yet, but based on your reaction to
it...I guess we win again!

You bought a "racer/cruiser" that might be a good racer but is
a below average cruiser. Given that its hard to call it a "great
performer."

Why is it hard? It won boat of year for it's performance and design.
Various magazines called it a performance boat. And that's what it is.
A J29 is also a performance boat, Jeff, even if I sail it on a pond or
stuff it in a hanger.

A head
and shower that you can actually use underway.

I used the head underway and in 20 knots. What exactly do you find
problematic? Are you unable to move your bowels or urinate on an angle?

Jeff, you lose again! Feed me, Seymour, Feed me!!!


RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. Rob wrote:
Performance is truly defined as how well something fulfills its
intended purpose.


Oh, I guess that means that if the guy with the Island Packet 35 feels
his boat performs great within his goals, then that's good performance?

Certainly. Its a great performing cruiser!

Sorry, Jeff, making up your own definition for sailing performance
won't cut it.

Sorry Bob, you're the one making up a definition. Performance is
"fulfilling the intended purpose." Look it up.

Your boat sails poorly in light air, is tedious to tack
(your own) words and is weak upwind.

And yet, it will go upwind faster than your boat in a breeze.

Even compared to newer cats it's
still not a good performer. However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,
goes upwind, tacks on a dime and is able to work in light air and is
still considered a good performer against more modern designs.

yada yada yada. It might mean something if you raced it.

You enter as many qualifications as you want but the basic facts are not
altered.

Right. You bought a "racer/cruiser" that might be a good racer but is a
below average cruiser. Given that its hard to call it a "great
performer." Buts its no matter, you don't race and you don't cruise, so I
guess that makes you a "poor performer."

You own a cruising boat that does well off the wind, tacks badly, can't
sail well in light air, can't point, has a numb helm....all by your own
admission now less....

I own a cruising boat that can handle any conditions I'm likely to
encounter on the East Coast. It can go upwind as fast as your boat and it
flies off the wind; all with a small rig that can be singlehanded. It has
three staterooms, two with queen size bunks, all with great ventilation,
standing room and plenty of lockers. A head and shower that you can
actually use underway. A galley bigger than many apartments have, big
enough to cook a Thanksgiving dinner for eight, who can be served in the
saloon. No A/C because it don't need it.

I carry a dinghy on davits and a kayak on deck. A cockpit that 8 people
can stretch out on, a foredeck made for sunbathing. I can do 100 miles
and arrive for dinner refreshed. The boat is even unsinkable!

This boat has taken us from Toronto to Maine to Key West and back. We've
lived on board close to 600 nights, and still use it more than half the
summer. We're planning a trip to Newfoundland that will take three
summers to complete.

So I ask the assembled masses: which boat has or will best fulfill its
intended purpose, or putting it more simply, is the best performer:
Boobie's Bendy, or my PDQ?

You know, Jeff, all this stuff is going to go completely over bubbles' head.
One last thing , bubbles' boat will best fulfill it's owners intended
purpose, a desperate attempt to impress the ignorant. Don't forget, it isn't
about sailing, it's about looking good at the dock.

John Cairns

Performance Defined
 

You know, Jeff, all this stuff is going to go completely over bubbles'
head.


Hey, don't you own one of those cup boat Catalina 28's???
Bwahahahahahaha! If you can dream it...it is!

RB
35s5....a square rigged boat!
NY

Performance Defined
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
You know, Jeff, all this stuff is going to go completely over bubbles'
head.


Hey, don't you own one of those cup boat Catalina 28's???
Bwahahahahahaha! If you can dream it...it is!

RB
35s5....a square rigged boat!
NY


WTF? I think you need to lay off the sugar snacks, bubbles.

John Cairns

Performance Defined
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
And yet, it will go upwind faster than your boat in a breeze.

Not higher than 40 degrees it won't!

Lets see those polars, boobie! I've already shown how a 407 and 99
don't really do any better than 45. Ranting on about how you have to
do 40 just shows that you're a total fool!

And not in light air AT ALL it
won't. Tedious tacking, poor in light air, numb helm boat!!!

I can live with my choice. It doesn't bother me that you might have
the best boat within 3 miles of your slip. But then, I can cruise the
entire world; you're stuck thinking that Execution Rock is the gateway
to "deep into the Sound"! BWHAHAHAHAHA!



You bought a "racer/cruiser" that might be a good racer but is
a below average cruiser.

While good performance is not open to wild interpretation with
sailboats,

According to what? Your fictitious book?

what makes a good cruiser certainly is. My friend cruises
his J30 and finds it to be perfect. Same for the tiny Bristol 27.

You always have a convenient "friend" that supports your every claim.
I'll bet you had an imaginary friend as a child!

Just
because you need a floating livingroom at sea, doesn't mean the rest of
the world wants that! Zikes!

You're just dripping with envy, aren't you boobie? Just because you
think you need a boat that points at 40 degrees, doesn't mean that
there's another non-racer that cares about it.

Its a good thing to, because your boat won't actually point at 40
degrees; not with that wing keel, and you know it! Even if your
compass says you're doing 40, you'll be making about 8 degrees of
leeway! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! cough choke ... Scuze me!




It has three staterooms, two with queen size bunks, all
with great ventilation, standing room and plenty of lockers.

It's a much bigger boat, Jeff, or do you thing boats are only measured
LOA?

That's why I've gone easy on you, Bob. I was taught not to make fun
of the less fortunate.




carry a dinghy on davits and a kayak on deck.

You have to. You sure won't have any fun sailing! Might I suggest
towing a J22?

I've always been partial to Solings.


So I ask the assembled masses: which boat has or will best fulfill its
intended purpose,

Our boat hasn't even been delivered yet, but based on your reaction to
it...I guess we win again!

You bought a "racer/cruiser" that might be a good racer but is
a below average cruiser. Given that its hard to call it a "great
performer."

Why is it hard? It won boat of year for it's performance and design.
Various magazines called it a performance boat. And that's what it is.
A J29 is also a performance boat, Jeff, even if I sail it on a pond or
stuff it in a hanger.

A head
and shower that you can actually use underway.

I used the head underway and in 20 knots. What exactly do you find
problematic? Are you unable to move your bowels or urinate on an angle?

I guess it helps to have a nurse around full time to clean you up.

Performance Defined
 

ts a good thing to, because your boat won't actually point at 40
degrees; not with that wing keel, and you know it!


Owners of the 35s5 report making better than 6 knots at 35 degrees
COMMONLY. The 35s5 and several other First series boats have been noted
for excellent upwind ability, besting some pure racers when newer more
advanced sails were used.
Why not ask some owners and see what they have to say? It's easy to
just jump up an down and yell "No, no no!"
But you might be better served by the facts and actual experiences from
owners, as I have.

RB
35s5...the more close winded boat
NY

Performance Defined
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
ts a good thing to, because your boat won't actually point at 40
degrees; not with that wing keel, and you know it!


Owners of the 35s5 report making better than 6 knots at 35 degrees
COMMONLY.

Its those imaginary friends again.

Here's a hint: all of those reports are to the apparent wind, not the
true wind. You do understand the difference, don't you?

The 35s5 and several other First series boats have been noted
for excellent upwind ability, besting some pure racers when newer more
advanced sails were used.
Why not ask some owners and see what they have to say? It's easy to
just jump up an down and yell "No, no no!"
But you might be better served by the facts and actual experiences from
owners, as I have.

yada yada yada

lets see those polars, boobie! show us the polars!



RB
35s5...the more break winded boat
NY

Performance Defined
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message


From the perspective of a designer and sailor, performance equates to
the widest range of directional velocity or VMG.

Performance is not
all about speed...with cars or boats.

Am I the only one who notes a bit of contradiction here?

Max

Performance Defined
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

How can you have the "best performing boat here"
if you just stated the only Loco and Donal have
true performance boats?

Actually, Donal may have a slight performance edge...hard to say. His
boat is fast. Very close based on what I've been reading. Loco's boat
is not far behind at all. No one has anything close.

Well, I'd dump that dog of a Beneteau fer sure.

Max

Performance Defined
 

"Jeff" wrote in message news:F-

Nice troll, Boobie, especially quoting a presumably "famous" book without
attribution.

He probably wrote it, Jeff.

Max

Performance Defined
 

Am I the only one who notes a bit of contradiction here?


Probably, Maxiprop. If performance was only about speed we all be
driving dragsters and hydrofoils.


RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

But you might be better served by the facts and actual experiences from

owners, as I have.

yada yada yada


Translation: I don't want to learn anything that might prove me wrong!
The info is out there, Jeff. Are you man enough to get it? Polars mean
little. The 35s5 is noted to outperform it's polars just like the 36.7
does with hi tech sails. On the other hand there's a thread online
about how the PDQ CAN'T sail to it's polars! Wanna see it?

RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
35s5....a square rigged boat!

Now that's funny! The longer you sail the funnier you get.

Performance Defined
 

35s5....a square rigged boat!


Now that's funny! The longer you sail the funnier you get.


Proof at last that Loco and Jeff have never sailed. They are humorless!

RB
35s5...a boat that likes to laugh...at other boats!
NY

Performance Defined
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
But you might be better served by the facts and actual experiences from

owners, as I have.

yada yada yada


Translation: I don't want to learn anything that might prove me wrong!

Translation: you're trying to "gain points" by pushing an argument
that was conceded on day one. Your boat goes upwind well and points
well.

However, that is not the only criterion that boats are judged by, at
least for most people.

Further, you keep claiming that "pointing" is all that counts, even if
VMG is reduced. You show your total ignorance of sailing. Where are
those benny polars that show hull speed at 30 degrees true?

The info is out there, Jeff. Are you man enough to get it? Polars mean
little.

They mean a lot booby. Its only in your fantasy world where salesmen
are more definitive then sailors, bar room chatter more believable
than polars.

The 35s5 is noted to outperform it's polars just like the 36.7
does with hi tech sails.

Sure booby, whatever you say. One day you claim your boat regularly
outperforms its rating, then you claim they can't win because the
rating is artificially low. Now you claiming that you boats are
always better then their polars, everyone else's are worse. I suppose
there are things you can do to make a go 1% faster. Why should I
care? Why do you care? You don't race!


On the other hand there's a thread online
about how the PDQ CAN'T sail to it's polars! Wanna see it?


Sure, I'd love to. I'd love to see my polars. Of course, its
probably going to show something we already know, like overloading a
cat will slow it down, or that most cruising cats are bought by people
who like to cruise and don't really care about polars? Or that some
cat owners are interested in very high speed, and so think the PDQ is
slow by comparison? Or that some cat owners don't know how to sail
their boat? I can find a thread that asserts 8 knots at 45 degrees
true. I'm skeptical, but who knows?

Performance Defined
 

Translation: you're trying to "gain points" by pushing an argument
that was conceded on day one. Your boat goes upwind well and points
well.


Whoo hooo! I win, I win!!!!


One day you claim your boat regularly
outperforms its rating, then you claim they can't win because the
rating is artificially low.

Why must you lie? Can't you make a single real point? This has gone
quite badly for you. You've exposed yourself and the poor PDQ 36, which
is getting bitch slapped because you can't defend it. WHAT I SAID WAS,
the 35s5 rating is a problem for some because she's often crewed with
crews of more experience. That makes it tough on the occasional racer.


Where are
those benny polars that show hull speed at 30 degrees true?


Wow, you have no shame, eh? Feeling pretty desperate aren't ya? Never
ever did I say the 35s5 could sail at 30 degrees true.

RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Translation: you're trying to "gain points" by pushing an argument
that was conceded on day one. Your boat goes upwind well and points
well.


Whoo hooo! I win, I win!!!!

Nope. You're stuck with the boat. You better sell it quick, because
if you actually use it, its value will tank.



One day you claim your boat regularly
outperforms its rating, then you claim they can't win because the
rating is artificially low.

Why must you lie? Can't you make a single real point?

A lie??? You were quite explicit that the rating for you benny will
be lower than its design would imply because it attracted professional
crews. You can deny it, but your posts are there. You even said that
the ratings are skewed towards lesser boats: "The more serious boat
needs a serious crew at times to beat it's less seriously crewed cousins."

This has gone quite badly for you.

You think? It seems like everyone here agrees with me and thinks
you're a buffoon! You have to make up fictional supporters, and quote
marketing brochures. Now you're even claiming I lied about your
posts, when they're right here for everyone to see.

You've exposed yourself and the poor PDQ 36, which
is getting bitch slapped because you can't defend it.

right booby. Why don't you sail up here and show me? Oh, right, you
don't do overnights because that would be horrific. Why don't you
have it trucked up here and show me? But don't bother, I'll probably
be off sailing!


WHAT I SAID WAS,
the 35s5 rating is a problem for some because she's often crewed with
crews of more experience. That makes it tough on the occasional racer.

Why is that? If the rating is fair then the only difference is that
the better crew probably sails better. You were explicit: the rating
is lower than it should be because it "attracted" better sailors. Or
that the rating of "lesser" boats was higher because they were sailed
by less skilled owners. You said: "they all said we'd have to sail
the 35s5 with far more skill than an old Ericson, Columbia or Pearson
to win" because the ratings were skewed.

Sorry booby, you're completely busted on this. Like all of your claims.




Where are
those benny polars that show hull speed at 30 degrees true?


Wow, you have no shame, eh? Feeling pretty desperate aren't ya? Never
ever did I say the 35s5 could sail at 30 degrees true.

OK, what you said was:
Actually the polars for my boat
show 6.5 knots at 35 degrees, but owners do better with the newer
sails of course, claiming hull speed even closer to the wind

So lets see those polars, boobie. I'm not even doubting that you can
point up pretty high, what I've been saying, and you seem too ignorant
to understand, that the VMG improvement is tiny, and probably doesn't
cover the added leeway.

All you've done by pursuing this is to show your ignorance in the one
area that you claim superiority. Thats sounds like pretty poor
performance to me.

Performance Defined
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
What constitutes performance in a sailboat design is a common point of
dissension among sailors. Let's cut to the chase. A 40 foot vessel that
sails at 10 knots on a reach, but falters at 40 degrees true is not a
great performing boat in spite of it's formidable downwind ability.
From the perspective of a designer and sailor, performance equates to
the widest range of directional velocity or VMG. In short; the higher
pointing hull is superior regardless of speed or size. A small racer
like a J24 is a better performing boat than a Catalina 42. Does this
mean the J24 is faster. Perhaps at times and in certain conditions, but
the Catalina 42 LWL will prove to be too much for the J24 off the wind.
No matter, the J24 is the better performing boat. Let's try an
off-the-wall example...a Mazda Miata vs. a Ford Crown Victoria. The
Crown Vic, used by police is a big fairly fast car. It's faster than
the Miata and can hold high speeds longer with less driver fatigue. But
the Miata is a better performing car. It's responsive
transmission/engine, fine balance and suspension make it able to turn
faster and return generous feedback to the wheel and brakes. The faster
car is not the better performing car in all cases. Performance is not
all about speed...with cars or boats.
And so it is with sailboats. A J24 is a better performing boat than a
C&C 32, in spite of the fact that the C&C is faster in many situations.
The only other true performance boats on this list are Loco's and
Donal's. You can cry and wine all day and night about it. Jeff can
claim his boat goes 200 knots downwind. Mooron can claim his boat would
fare better over 2000 miles of reaching through tsunamis. Neal can
claim he'll fly a 344% genoa generating an S/AD of 77.9. It doesn't
matter. You can all claim my interior is not suited for Atlantic
crossings. It wasn't bought for that. You can jump up and down that
she'll be uncomfortable in 10 foot swells. We won't take Thomas into
that any time soon.
We bought the best boat for our needs and conditions. What angers so
many folks here is that our choice just happens to easily eclipse
there's and that's more than they can handle.
We simply have the nicest boat here...and the best performing one as
well.

(Yes. I stole the opening from a certain book on racing. So what? It
only afirms my point.)

Capt. Robert B
35s5
NY

This is all very credible and well thought out. You kind of ruin it
with your obnoxious closing. "we simply....." You should have put the
caveat "for our needs" to sound a little less arrogant.

Gaz

Performance Defined
 

"Capt. Rob" the angel dust kicking in, saw the following,
and recorded it for posterity
ups.com...
35s5....a square rigged boat!
RB
35s5...a boat that likes to laugh...at other boats!
NY

Not too busy today, I see.

Bwahahahahhahahahahhahhahahhahhahahhahhahahahha

John

Performance Defined
 

"Jeff" wrote

So I ask the assembled masses: which boat has or will best
fulfill its
intended purpose, or putting it more simply, is the best
performer:
Boobie's Bendy, or my PDQ?


Well, since the intended purpose of Bob's boat is to troll ASA ,
I think the Bendy is.

Scotty

Performance Defined
 

Well, since the intended purpose of Bob's boat is to troll ASA ,
I think the Bendy is.


And don't forget that moronic Jeff, the Loser had to actually PAY for
his floating travellodge!

RB
35s5
NY

Performance Defined
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Well, since the intended purpose of Bob's boat is to troll ASA
,
I think the Bendy is.


And don't forget that moronic Jeff, the Loser had to actually
PAY for
his floating travellodge!


but Jeff sure seems happy with his boat.
I only hope that someday you'll own a boat that you can be happy
with.



Fleet Admiral Scotty

Performance Defined
 

but Jeff sure seems happy with his boat.


How can you tell? He's so busy defending it, while I don't own a boat.
My wife does! If he was happy, why spend so much effort defending it
while I'm not even a boat owner?
Seem odd to me, but you can beleive what you read if you like.

RB
35s5...My wife's boat
NY