Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23
Coronado 27
Siedlemann 30
Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7
Farr 38
C&C 34R
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:

Since I've actually been in PHRF races ...

Oh? How many?


... and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:
...
Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand
the basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?

The possibility that the slower boats might not finish within the time
limit. Which is why a club might split the boats into groups (fast yacht,
slow yacht, white sails, etc).


--
Capt Scumbalino

The possibility that the slower boats might not finish within the time
limit. Which is why a club might split the boats into groups (fast
yacht,
slow yacht, white sails, etc).


That's true....these boats may be broken down into various classes, but
that's not the BIG PHRF FLAW I'm looking for.


RB
35s5
NY

Well Robert,

All rating rules have flaws.

If you are (in the case) eluding to the fact that, if this race is one
class, the rating spread is way too wide. You would have a scratch to
itch of 15 (give or take) minutes - in short - the 34r would have to
finish over a mile ahead of the Spirit. - I didn't bother to look up
all the ratings.

This is the short answer (believe it!)

The serious flaw in PHRF is the fact that a boats rating might get
adjusted to advantage by a history of not attracting effective crews and
so have an unfair advantage once the rating is too old to be easily
contested.

Another flaw in PHRF is that the history (at least in the areas I have
sailed) is based on "around the bouys" races and it has a know problem
when used on a "windward-leeward" race as the history includes some
broard reaching which is often the strong point of the older
racer/cruiser boats.

There are really only 2 types of rating rules:
Measured characterisic rules (this actually includes one-design)
Performance history rules (the PHRF and Portsmouth family)
(Well, then there is Americap - now Americap II that is secret and still
under development)

If your problem is something else, it must be way down the list.

Matt Colie (WSSC PC'03)


Capt. Rob wrote:
Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23 219
Coronado 27 228
Siedlemann 30
Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7 81
Farr 38 90
C&C 34R 78
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF
NY

The serious flaw in PHRF is the fact that a boats rating might get
adjusted to advantage by a history of not attracting effective crews



Correct! When 35s5's, Farr's and 36.7's are crewed by pro's and semi
pro's, it can be tough to measure up to a well sailed Catalina 30 than
hardly has a history of attracting a pro crew. My friend's Catalin 30
wins often by that simple fact, beating out more serious racers. The
more serious boat needs a serious crew at times to beat it's less
seriously crewed cousins.
It's the fatal flaw of PHRF. When talking to a few friends about racing
the 35s5 and looking at the racings, they all said we'd have to sail
the 35s5 with far more skill than an old Ericson, Columbia or Pearson
to win. Most of my friends race one design. While PHRF racing is still
a valuable learning tool, it's too much of a mess to be taken
seriously!

Boat for boat is all that matters when two vessels are of roughy the
same dimensions.


RB
35s5...a damn fast boat!
NY

Depends on the skipper and his crew. For instance, the C&C 34R
with a putz, such as yourself as skipper would surely be beaten
by the Coronado 27 with Loco at the helm.

Scotty


"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only
read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race
consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23
Coronado 27
Siedlemann 30
Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7
Farr 38
C&C 34R
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of
boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't
understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF
NY

The biggest problem from Bob's point of view is that the rules always
favor the best skippers.

Matt Colie wrote:
Well Robert,

All rating rules have flaws.

If you are (in the case) eluding to the fact that, if this race is one
class, the rating spread is way too wide. You would have a scratch to
itch of 15 (give or take) minutes - in short - the 34r would have to
finish over a mile ahead of the Spirit. - I didn't bother to look up
all the ratings.

This is the short answer (believe it!)

The serious flaw in PHRF is the fact that a boats rating might get
adjusted to advantage by a history of not attracting effective crews and
so have an unfair advantage once the rating is too old to be easily
contested.

Another flaw in PHRF is that the history (at least in the areas I have
sailed) is based on "around the bouys" races and it has a know problem
when used on a "windward-leeward" race as the history includes some
broard reaching which is often the strong point of the older
racer/cruiser boats.

There are really only 2 types of rating rules:
Measured characterisic rules (this actually includes one-design)
Performance history rules (the PHRF and Portsmouth family)
(Well, then there is Americap - now Americap II that is secret and still
under development)

If your problem is something else, it must be way down the list.

Matt Colie (WSSC PC'03)


Capt. Rob wrote:
Since I've actually been in PHRF races and most of you only read about
them, here's a little test for you. The Wednesday night race consists
of the following boats:

Spirit 23 219
Coronado 27 228 Siedlemann 30 Catalina 30
J24
Nordic 30
Express 30
Kirie Elite 32
Beneteau 35s5
Beneteau 36.7 81
Farr 38 90 C&C 34R 78
C&C 115

Quite a range of boats and ratings....NOW...what is the biggest
inherent flaw in this race...and most races with a range of boats like
this? Spare me the answers with NO answers. If you can't understand the
basic flaw don't pretend that you can.
Well?


Robert B
35s5...a boat that would have a tougher time winning PHRF
NY

The biggest problem from Bob's point of view is that the rules always
favor the best skippers.


I think you missed the point. The best skippers favor the best boats,
skewing the PHRF in favor of lesser boats with "good" skippers.

RB
35s5...a damn fast boat!
NY

Bob, most guys at least wait until after their first race to
whine about their boats' rating.

Sheesh, get the thing in the water first!

SBV

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
The biggest problem from Bob's point of view is that the rules
always
favor the best skippers.


I think you missed the point. The best skippers favor the best
boats,
skewing the PHRF in favor of lesser boats with "good" skippers.

RB
35s5...a damn fast boat!
NY

Already working on excuses for how well you are going to sail your boat...


"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
The serious flaw in PHRF is the fact that a boats rating might get
adjusted to advantage by a history of not attracting effective crews



Correct! When 35s5's, Farr's and 36.7's are crewed by pro's and semi
pro's, it can be tough to measure up to a well sailed Catalina 30 than
hardly has a history of attracting a pro crew. My friend's Catalin 30
wins often by that simple fact, beating out more serious racers. The
more serious boat needs a serious crew at times to beat it's less
seriously crewed cousins.
It's the fatal flaw of PHRF. When talking to a few friends about racing
the 35s5 and looking at the racings, they all said we'd have to sail
the 35s5 with far more skill than an old Ericson, Columbia or Pearson
to win. Most of my friends race one design. While PHRF racing is still
a valuable learning tool, it's too much of a mess to be taken
seriously!

Boat for boat is all that matters when two vessels are of roughy the
same dimensions.


RB
35s5...a damn fast boat!
NY