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The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
Joe wrote:
Both Doug and Bart are wrong on this one......... No, we're not. ... courage is very important trait for an "outstanding skipper". I would never want to go sailing with an outstandingly brave skipper. In fact, a skipper who makes declarations that he's not afraid, or that the crew should not be afraid, etc etc, is exactly the kind of macho butt head who is dangerous on the water. The kind of skipper who is intent on proving how brave he is, and (just for example) would refuse to 'run away' from a Cat 5 hurricane. JL hit the nail on the head. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
"Scotty" wrote: "Seahag" wrote: "Scotty" wrote: "Bart Senior" .@. wrote: What are the attributes of an outstanding skipper? Allowing the 'crew' to sunbathe on the foredeck while you handle the boat. Allowing the crew to work the helm and sails while I go below to eat fried chicken. Take a good hard look at yourself, and tell me which attributes you feel need improvement in yourself. Need to lose weight. Tell me what you plan to do to effect such improvements. Buy larger clothes. Heehee! Allowing the crew to smoke downwind is nice too... That wasn't ''allowed'', that was MUTINY ! At least the dog didn't barf in the cockpit! Seahag |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
Doug,
Having worked beside and for 100's of skippers I can tell you when the **** hit the fans having courage can save you and your crews life. And a coward can get you all killed. We were talking about "outstanding Skippers" not just good or OK skippers or average weekend trawler Captn's Jolly Rogers is right... that sometimes the bravest thing to do is refuse to do the job, but he is dead wrong when he left out batteling the elements. Many times Ive seen "Outstanding Skippers " as you guys would call them fall into the weekend warrior status due to not have the courage to tackle the task at hand. Has nothing to do with going out and acting macho IMO. And I would not sail with anyone who makes declarations that he's never afraid. I do not like liars. And if he's never been afraid at sea, then he hasen't been to sea long enough to know sqwat .....and is no one I would trust. The most courage you can see is a man or woman doing his or her job despite the fear. Thats what makes them "Outstanding" IMO. Joe |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
"Joe" wrote in message oups.com... | Doug, | | Having worked beside and for 100's of skippers I can tell you when the | **** hit the fans having courage can save you and your crews life. And | a coward can get you all killed. | | We were talking about "outstanding Skippers" not just good or OK | skippers or average weekend trawler Captn's | | Jolly Rogers is right... that sometimes the bravest thing to do is | refuse to do the job, but he is dead wrong when he left out batteling | the elements. Many times Ive seen "Outstanding Skippers " as you guys | would call them fall into the weekend warrior status due to not have | the courage to tackle the task at hand. | | Has nothing to do with going out and acting macho IMO. | | And I would not sail with anyone who makes declarations that he's never | afraid. I do not like liars. And if he's never been afraid at sea, then | he hasen't been to sea long enough to know sqwat .....and is no one I | would trust. | | The most courage you can see is a man or woman doing his or her job | despite the fear. | Thats what makes them "Outstanding" IMO. | | Joe | But, is it not generally understood that fear causes degradation in clear thinking? And is not clear thinking of paramount importance in any emergency? CN |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
Joe wrote:
Doug, Having worked beside and for 100's of skippers I can tell you when the **** hit the fans having courage can save you and your crews life. And a coward can get you all killed. ??? How about not being there in the first place? Any skipper who deliberately exposes his vessel & crew to unnecessary danger because he is "brave" is a fool and a hazard. We were talking about "outstanding Skippers" not just good or OK skippers or average weekend trawler Captn's Yes we were. Jolly Rogers is right... that sometimes the bravest thing to do is refuse to do the job, but he is dead wrong when he left out batteling the elements. Many times Ive seen "Outstanding Skippers " as you guys would call them fall into the weekend warrior status due to not have the courage to tackle the task at hand. Like what? Has nothing to do with going out and acting macho IMO. And I would not sail with anyone who makes declarations that he's never afraid. I do not like liars. And if he's never been afraid at sea, then he hasen't been to sea long enough to know sqwat .....and is no one I would trust. Agreed. The most courage you can see is a man or woman doing his or her job despite the fear. Thats what makes them "Outstanding" IMO. Agreed again. Now please explain how a skipper who avoids danger, in other words a "coward" in your terms, can get his crew killed. DSK |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
My point exactly.
If they have courage they can overcome the fear and do what is needed to be done. Thats the difference between skippers and outstanding skippers. Anyone one top of a 60 foot mast offshore in a storm alone better be skeered enough for the adrieline to kick in and provide super human strength needed :0). A person without courage may decide it is safer to hope the sail shreads and might hide below. Joe |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
"Seahag" wrote Heehee! Allowing the crew to smoke downwind is nice too... That wasn't ''allowed'', that was MUTINY ! At least the dog didn't barf in the cockpit! this time. |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
87. DSK
Nov 3, 10:08 am show options Newsgroups: alt.sailing.asa From: DSK - Find messages by this author Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:08:12 -0500 Local: Thurs, Nov 3 2005 10:08 am Subject: The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Joe wrote: Doug, Having worked beside and for 100's of skippers I can tell you when the **** hit the fans having courage can save you and your crews life. And a coward can get you all killed. ??? How about not being there in the first place? How about not having a choice? The sea can change in a heartbeat Doug. You should know that. Any skipper who deliberately exposes his vessel & crew to unnecessary danger because he is "brave" is a fool and a hazard. Yes he is. A coward may always opt out .....and say it is not necessary that it is just to dangerious. A person with courage will say it is necessary and do what is needed. If he is an "outstanding" skipper he will get the job done and not one will be hurt. We were talking about "outstanding Skippers" not just good or OK skippers or average weekend trawler Captn's Yes we were. Jolly Rogers is right... that sometimes the bravest thing to do is refuse to do the job, but he is dead wrong when he left out batteling the elements. Many times Ive seen "Outstanding Skippers " as you guys would call them fall into the weekend warrior status due to not have the courage to tackle the task at hand. Like what? To refuse a load and get everyone fired, takes courage IMO. Out racing on a 62 pearson and the owner had a tape drive foresail on one of those dangerious roll up furlers. A tape delaminted and tangled the fore sail making it stuck half way open. He bitched and wined and was ready to throw in the towel because he thought it was just way to dangerious to shimmy up 15 feet with a knife and cut the tape fouling things up. I shimmied up and cut it without a problem after taking 10 min to convince him, we lost the race btw. One time while working for Mobil we were in route to a rig offshore rig when another companies rig hit a poison gas pocket, no helos would land, The SB boat in the area refused to move in but my skipper moved in offloaded everyone. I thought it took alot of courage and we were all scared. They say if you smell this gas your dead. Had he asked the corporate office for permission the bean counters would of freaked and shut it down, had he hesitated the guys on the rig would of all died if the wind shifted. Now please explain how a skipper who avoids danger, in other words a "coward" in your terms, can get his crew killed. I never said a person who avoids danger is a coward,................ you did. Joe DSK |
Redcloud
Joe, how was your trip?
Scotty "Joe" wrote in message oups.com... Doug, Having worked beside and for 100's of skippers I can tell you when the **** hit the fans having courage can save you and your crews life. And a coward can get you all killed. We were talking about "outstanding Skippers" not just good or OK skippers or average weekend trawler Captn's Jolly Rogers is right... that sometimes the bravest thing to do is refuse to do the job, but he is dead wrong when he left out batteling the elements. Many times Ive seen "Outstanding Skippers " as you guys would call them fall into the weekend warrior status due to not have the courage to tackle the task at hand. Has nothing to do with going out and acting macho IMO. And I would not sail with anyone who makes declarations that he's never afraid. I do not like liars. And if he's never been afraid at sea, then he hasen't been to sea long enough to know sqwat .....and is no one I would trust. The most courage you can see is a man or woman doing his or her job despite the fear. Thats what makes them "Outstanding" IMO. Joe |
Redcloud
Great. Have lots of fish is the freezer. Perfect weather (5-15 knots
2-3 ft seas) cept we had one wicked front move thru, but we found a nice backdown bouy to ride it out on. Lots of weird stuff in the flosum lines, made great cover for the dolphin and lings, lots of lawn chairs and lumber,.... and a poly pro line that I had to cut out of the prop. Spent the first few days about 110 miles SSE of Galveston at my favorite fishing spot, then went into Freeport for a Halloween party, had a perfect night sail coming back up the coast... the darkest sky you ever seen with so many shooting stars we lost count. Spent a night anchored off redfish island and skipper had a blast being free to run. Got in last night around 22:00... Did I miss any thing here? Whats this 35.5 blister problems i hear about? Joe |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
Joe wrote:
Having worked beside and for 100's of skippers I can tell you when the **** hit the fans having courage can save you and your crews life. And a coward can get you all killed. ??? How about not being there in the first place? Joe wrote: How about not having a choice? The sea can change in a heartbeat Doug. You should know that. Actually, I don't know that. The sea can surprise you, but with study & forethought, surprises can be minimized... probably not ever eliminated totally. Anything as big as an ocean cannot change "suddenly" but the factors affecting it can bring about a change that may be overlooked, until it becomes all too obvious. A bad driver is often "surprised" by things in traffic that seem to pop up in front of him. An observant, defensive driver sees things long before. Any skipper who deliberately exposes his vessel & crew to unnecessary danger because he is "brave" is a fool and a hazard. Joe wrote: Yes he is. A coward may always opt out .....and say it is not necessary that it is just to dangerious. A person with courage will say it is necessary and do what is needed. If he is an "outstanding" skipper he will get the job done and not one will be hurt. Like what? if you are talking about warships, then part of that job is to perform dangerous tasks. Otherwise, I have a hard time picturing a danger that is "necessary." Like what? To refuse a load and get everyone fired, takes courage IMO. Yep. Out racing on a 62 pearson and the owner had a tape drive foresail on one of those dangerious roll up furlers. A tape delaminted and tangled the fore sail making it stuck half way open. He bitched and wined and was ready to throw in the towel because he thought it was just way to dangerious to shimmy up 15 feet with a knife and cut the tape fouling things up. I shimmied up and cut it without a problem after taking 10 min to convince him, we lost the race btw. Sounds like poor judgement coupled with poor maintenance. This is what I mean by having the foresight to avoid danger... this whole situation should have been avoided. OTOH your action was risky but it enabled the vessel to carry on. Probably one of those cases where it may seem "brave" but is actually taking the less risky of available options. One time while working for Mobil we were in route to a rig offshore rig when another companies rig hit a poison gas pocket, no helos would land, The SB boat in the area refused to move in but my skipper moved in offloaded everyone. I thought it took alot of courage and we were all scared. They say if you smell this gas your dead. Had he asked the corporate office for permission the bean counters would of freaked and shut it down, had he hesitated the guys on the rig would of all died if the wind shifted. IMHO that's another case of taking the less risky of available options... while one is obligated to rescue others at sea, it is not an obligation to place one's own life, vessel, or crew in peril. It sounds like the men on the platform would probably have died if your boat had not rescued them... for them, it was *far* less risky! An outstanding skipper also has the knowledge & skills (and foresight) to minimize dangers that may trap other skippers... and has confidence. Some might call this bravery. DSK |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
We are talking skippers now, not crew.
Courage is diffucult to define. I view courage as doing something that might get you killed, despite the known risks. Would an outstanding skipper do something so risky as to possibly lose his/her life? Skippers have no business doing anything risky, except as a last resort. A good skipper doesn't have fear, because he/she always has a backup plan. When you are leading you are making decisions about actions. Actions conqueor fear. Recognizing the dangers of a situation and staying calm--is that courage? Or is it level-headedness? "Capt. Neal®" wrote "Joe" wrote | | Having worked beside and for 100's of skippers I can tell you when the | **** hit the fans having courage can save you and your crews life. And | a coward can get you all killed. | | And I would not sail with anyone who makes declarations that he's never | afraid. I do not like liars. And if he's never been afraid at sea, then | he hasen't been to sea long enough to know sqwat .....and is no one I | would trust. | | The most courage you can see is a man or woman doing his or her job | despite the fear. | Thats what makes them "Outstanding" IMO. | | Joe | But, is it not generally understood that fear causes degradation in clear thinking? And is not clear thinking of paramount importance in any emergency? CN |
Redcloud
"Joe" wrote in message ups.com... Great. Have lots of fish is the freezer. Perfect weather (5-15 knots 2-3 ft seas) cept we had one wicked front move thru, but we found a nice backdown bouy to ride it out on. Lots of weird stuff in the flosum lines, made great cover for the dolphin and lings, lots of lawn chairs and lumber,.... and a poly pro line that I had to cut out of the prop. Spent the first few days about 110 miles SSE of Galveston at my favorite fishing spot, then went into Freeport for a Halloween party, had a perfect night sail coming back up the coast... the darkest sky you ever seen with so many shooting stars we lost count. Spent a night anchored off redfish island and skipper had a blast being free to run. Got in last night around 22:00... Did I miss any thing here? nope, same old ****. Glad to hear you had a good time. just the 3 of you, right? I got to go for a 3 day cruise, weather was nice. Scotty |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message But, is it not generally understood that fear causes degradation in clear thinking? And is not clear thinking of paramount importance in any emergency? No Cappy.... fear is a wonderful thing... it causes clarity of thought..... what you are describing is Panic... like when Bobsprit loses sight of land!! :-) Courage is merely the ability to harness fear...... CM |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
As I stated to Capt Neal...... you folks are mistaking fear for panic and
courage for fearlessness. Stupidity does not discriminate between the brave and the cowardly..... CM "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... We are talking skippers now, not crew. Courage is diffucult to define. I view courage as doing something that might get you killed, despite the known risks. Would an outstanding skipper do something so risky as to possibly lose his/her life? Skippers have no business doing anything risky, except as a last resort. A good skipper doesn't have fear, because he/she always has a backup plan. When you are leading you are making decisions about actions. Actions conqueor fear. Recognizing the dangers of a situation and staying calm--is that courage? Or is it level-headedness? "Capt. Neal®" wrote "Joe" wrote | | Having worked beside and for 100's of skippers I can tell you when the | **** hit the fans having courage can save you and your crews life. And | a coward can get you all killed. | | And I would not sail with anyone who makes declarations that he's never | afraid. I do not like liars. And if he's never been afraid at sea, then | he hasen't been to sea long enough to know sqwat .....and is no one I | would trust. | | The most courage you can see is a man or woman doing his or her job | despite the fear. | Thats what makes them "Outstanding" IMO. | | Joe | But, is it not generally understood that fear causes degradation in clear thinking? And is not clear thinking of paramount importance in any emergency? CN |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
"DSK" wrote in message How about not being there in the first place? Why? Any skipper who deliberately exposes his vessel & crew to unnecessary danger because he is "brave" is a fool and a hazard. .....can you cite me an example of necessary danger? CM |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message news:qStaf.101592$Io.7003@clgrps13... | | "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message | | But, is it not generally understood that fear causes degradation in clear | thinking? And is not clear thinking of paramount importance in any | emergency? | | No Cappy.... fear is a wonderful thing... it causes clarity of thought..... | what you are describing is Panic... like when Bobsprit loses sight of land!! | :-) | | Courage is merely the ability to harness fear...... | | CM | Thought is linear. One cannot experience fear (a thought) without taking away from other thought processes. Time spent thinking fearfully is time taken from thinking constructively. Fear is the mind killer - the little death . . . CN |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
Capt.Mooron wrote:
Why? Why not? Any skipper who deliberately exposes his vessel & crew to unnecessary danger because he is "brave" is a fool and a hazard. ....can you cite me an example of necessary danger? Yep. But that's what I was asking Joe, so let him go first ;) DSK |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
"DSK" wrote in message Actually, I don't know that. The sea can surprise you, but with study & forethought, surprises can be minimized... probably not ever eliminated totally. Heh... what about the Trans Atlantic sailors. They don't have much room to "get out of the way" of approaching bad weather. Is it foolhardy and dangerous to subject vessel & crew to a crossing? Is that skipper a danger and a menace? Anything as big as an ocean cannot change "suddenly" Pardon Me???? Look Man... I commercial fished the east coast of Nova Scotia. It'll change on you in 20 minutes without warning and totally oblivious of the weather forecast..... usually when you have your deep set gill pulled and half clear. CM |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
How about slapping open a pelican hook loose holding 65,000 pounds of
anchor and chain flaked out on deck under a heavy strain. Its dangerious work, but necessary, working on a deck awash, diving under a boat in rough seas, offloading underway in a 15 ft wake, I can think of a thousand things that are dangerious and necessary to accomplish many jobs at sea. The Alaskan crabbers have the most dangerious job on earth, with offshore oilfield workers next in line. Not all skippers have the courage to do the job. They are not outstanding IMO and need to stick to safer occupations our ventures. Joe |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
You watch too many poorly done SciFi movies.
"Capt. Neal®" wrote from thinking constructively. Fear is the mind killer - the little death . .. . |
Redcloud
yelp just the 3 of us..a great escape for sure. It was a perfect week,
had a small problem with the gen set, somehow fuel got into the oil. Will have to check it out this weekend and find out what happened. Recharged and ready to clear the decks and get back to work Joe |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
Can you walk and chew bubble gum at the same time?
Joe |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
"DSK" wrote in Joe wrote: How about not having a choice? The sea can change in a heartbeat Doug. You should know that. Actually, I don't know that. The sea can surprise you, but with study & forethought, surprises can be minimized... probably not ever eliminated totally. Anything as big as an ocean cannot change "suddenly" but the factors affecting it can bring about a change that may be overlooked, until it becomes all too obvious. But the sea changes colours... but the sea... Does not change SN |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
We are talking skippers now, not crew. Courage is diffucult to define. I view courage as doing something that might get you killed, despite the known risks. Would an outstanding skipper do something so risky as to possibly lose his/her life? Skippers have no business doing anything risky, except as a last resort. A good skipper doesn't have fear, because he/she always has a backup plan. When you are leading you are making decisions about actions. Actions conqueor fear. Recognizing the dangers of a situation and staying calm--is that courage? Or is it level-headedness? Courage can also be defined as not doing something just because your crew wants to do it. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
That's backbone.
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote Bart Senior .@. wrote: A good skipper doesn't have fear, because he/she always has a backup plan. When you are leading you are making decisions about actions. Actions conqueor fear. Courage can also be defined as not doing something just because your crew wants to do it. "j" ganz @@ |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
In article , Bart Senior .@. wrote:
That's backbone. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote Bart Senior .@. wrote: A good skipper doesn't have fear, because he/she always has a backup plan. When you are leading you are making decisions about actions. Actions conqueor fear. Courage can also be defined as not doing something just because your crew wants to do it. I wish some of our leaders on both side of the aisle had more of it. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
Joe wrote:
How about slapping open a pelican hook loose holding 65,000 pounds of anchor and chain flaked out on deck under a heavy strain. Its dangerious work, but necessary, working on a deck awash, diving under a boat in rough seas, offloading underway in a 15 ft wake, I can think of a thousand things that are dangerious and necessary to accomplish many jobs at sea. The Alaskan crabbers have the most dangerious job on earth, with offshore oilfield workers next in line. Not all skippers have the courage to do the job. They are not outstanding IMO and need to stick to safer occupations our ventures. Joe, I think those are good examples of jobs that take some bravery, but not really applicable to being an outstanding skipper. Does the skipper personally knock out the key link to drop anchor? Alaskan crabbers & oil field workers do what they do for money. It doesn't have a thing to do with being outstanding, only being willing to to take risks for pay. That said, I have a high regard for most guys who work at sea under almost any conditions. It's a tough way to make a living and takes a lot of guts as well as some brainpower. DSK |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
the skipper tells the deck hand when to trip open the hook, therefore
he is responsiable for the deckape. Like I said, some Skippers handle anchors, some handle tourist on bird watching boats and some run yachts for lubbers. The outstanding ones are the ones who get the job done no matter what is thrown at them. The ones who step up to the plate and have the courage to swing. Lets face it Doug, some people do not have the courage to be good skippers. Joe |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
Stupidity is not the same as courage.
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article , DSK wrote: Joe wrote: Both Doug and Bart are wrong on this one......... No, we're not. ... courage is very important trait for an "outstanding skipper". I would never want to go sailing with an outstandingly brave skipper. In fact, a skipper who makes declarations that he's not afraid, or that the crew should not be afraid, etc etc, is exactly the kind of macho butt head who is dangerous on the water. The kind of skipper who is intent on proving how brave he is, and (just for example) would refuse to 'run away' from a Cat 5 hurricane. Yeah - what Doug said. I've been in F12 gales in the Southern Ocean. The inexperienced and the macho brave thought it was fun. The skipper was watching the 2nd mate on the helm, I was watching the radar and all 3 of us were not happy campers. It's real hard to pick up a bergy bit either visual or radar in a gale. PDW |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
In article , DSK
wrote: Joe wrote: Both Doug and Bart are wrong on this one......... No, we're not. ... courage is very important trait for an "outstanding skipper". I would never want to go sailing with an outstandingly brave skipper. In fact, a skipper who makes declarations that he's not afraid, or that the crew should not be afraid, etc etc, is exactly the kind of macho butt head who is dangerous on the water. The kind of skipper who is intent on proving how brave he is, and (just for example) would refuse to 'run away' from a Cat 5 hurricane. Yeah - what Doug said. I've been in F12 gales in the Southern Ocean. The inexperienced and the macho brave thought it was fun. The skipper was watching the 2nd mate on the helm, I was watching the radar and all 3 of us were not happy campers. It's real hard to pick up a bergy bit either visual or radar in a gale. PDW |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
In article ,
Peter Wiley wrote: In article , DSK wrote: Joe wrote: Both Doug and Bart are wrong on this one......... No, we're not. ... courage is very important trait for an "outstanding skipper". I would never want to go sailing with an outstandingly brave skipper. In fact, a skipper who makes declarations that he's not afraid, or that the crew should not be afraid, etc etc, is exactly the kind of macho butt head who is dangerous on the water. The kind of skipper who is intent on proving how brave he is, and (just for example) would refuse to 'run away' from a Cat 5 hurricane. Yeah - what Doug said. I've been in F12 gales in the Southern Ocean. The inexperienced and the macho brave thought it was fun. The skipper was watching the 2nd mate on the helm, I was watching the radar and all 3 of us were not happy campers. It's real hard to pick up a bergy bit either visual or radar in a gale. Looking at some of the footage of the single handed around alone crowd, none of them seemed particulary happy during those sort of conditions. They looked like they were just trying to make it out alive. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The Attributes of an Outstanding Skipper
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article , DSK wrote: Joe wrote: Both Doug and Bart are wrong on this one......... No, we're not. ... courage is very important trait for an "outstanding skipper". I would never want to go sailing with an outstandingly brave skipper. In fact, a skipper who makes declarations that he's not afraid, or that the crew should not be afraid, etc etc, is exactly the kind of macho butt head who is dangerous on the water. There is a very subtle difference between "an outstandingly brave skipper" and a skipper who keeps his worries hidden from the crew. The crew "think" that the skipper has total control over the boat - and the elements!!! A few years ago, there was an incident on Setanta where the crew saw that I was a bit nervous. The result was the crew became extremely distressed. If I had been a better skipper, then the crew would have been relaxed. The kind of skipper who is intent on proving how brave he is, and (just for example) would refuse to 'run away' from a Cat 5 hurricane. Yeah - what Doug said. It isn't about bravery! Regards Donal -- |
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