Joe wrote:
Desertion is defining as leaving with "intent to remain away
permenantly"

True, it's also defined as leaving in order to avoid hazardous duty.

So, you're right... those who flee to Canada are guilty of desertion.

That does *not* make them guilty of treason.





(Article 85 UCMJ.) Since the intent is often difficult to prove, most
cases
are simply charged as Unauthorized Absence (Article 86 UCMJ).
Virtually all
Article 86 cases serious enough for court martial will go to a Special
Court
Martial where the maximum penalty is Confinement for 6 months,
reduction to pay
grade E-1, forfeiture of pay, and a Bad Conduct Discharge.


If Charged with Desertion, the case is usually heard at a General Court
Martial, where the Maximum punishment for Article 85 (IIRC) is 5 years
confinement and a Dishonorable Discharge.


** *** ** quote ** *** **
UCMJ article 85 (c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to
desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by
death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the
desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such
punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.
** *** ** quote ** *** **

It is proclaimed daily that we're at war. You've made that claim
yourself, including stating that IYHO torture is justified because of
the despicable nature of the enemy... as though the U.S. habitually (or
even occasionally) made war on perfectly reasonable & morally elevated
enemies... so do you think that deserters should be tortured, too? It
would certainly discourage further desertion!

You also have avoided answering the question, when are you going to
combat duty in Iraq? Or if you feel you're too old, how about sending
one or more of your kids?

Doug King

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:16:52 -0500, DSK wrote
this crap:

Thom Stewart wrote:
Doug,

Do you consider D. Arnold a traitor? He severed with distinction before
going against his Army Oath.


Do you mean Benedict Arnold?

Heck yes he is a traitor. Among other things, he was commissioned as a
general officer by the British after attempting to hand over West Point
(an important strategic fort at the time). You're right, before that he
served with great distinction... some would say he was the best American
general of the Revolutionary War.


You are incorrect, again. He was never given a command by the
British.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The British provided handsomely for Arnold, but never completely
trusted him. He was never given an important military command. They
moved to London where he found no job, some admiration and even some
contempt. He moved his family to Canada where he reentered the
shipping business. The Tories there disliked him and had no use for
him, and eventually he returned his family to London.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/served/arnold.html






This post is 100% free of steroids

Doug,

You are correct. Benedict Arnold was guilty of a traitorous act and
deserting to the enemy.

This bring into question the act of desertion in war time. Is it
treason? It is a question? I'm really not sure.

Ole Thom




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsPage

Horvath wrote:
You are incorrect, again. He was never given a command by the
British.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold

"Arnold was appointed brigadier beneral in the British Army and engaged
Continental forces on a few occasions. One significant battle occurred
on January 5, 1781 when Richmond, Virginia was burned by British naval
forces led by Arnold."

YMMV

DSK

I'm willing to bet that Horvath never apologizes or admits his error.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Horvath wrote:
You are incorrect, again. He was never given a command by the
British.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold

"Arnold was appointed brigadier beneral in the British Army and engaged
Continental forces on a few occasions. One significant battle occurred on
January 5, 1781 when Richmond, Virginia was burned by British naval forces
led by Arnold."

YMMV

DSK

Thom Stewart wrote:
Doug,

You are correct. Benedict Arnold was guilty of a traitorous act and
deserting to the enemy.

This bring into question the act of desertion in war time. Is it
treason? It is a question? I'm really not sure.


Obviously I don't have the *definitive* answer (where's Jax when you
need him?) but it seems to me that is a wider difference between
desertion & treason than there is between desertion & going AWOL.

Treason is the deliberate betrayal and causing of great harm...
generally as great as one can manage... such as concealing vital
military intel or lying about it, so as to bring about large numbers of
casualties.

Desertion during war time? Does it have to be a "declared" war? What
about a 'police action' which can of course be just as deadly?

DSK

He may have not comitted Treason. But he is a Traitor as well as a
deserter.

A man who cannot honor his word is worthless. Honor your word.

Show me where I said Torture is justified..

I said your and my defination of torture is different. I do not endorse
or support any torture.

You did not listen... I did my tour, I do not think I'm to old to do
another... but Uncle sam say I'm to old for our military at 43. If
there comes a time when Im needed I be the first in line Bucko. But I'm
trained as a Merchant Marine Master and the greatest thing I could do
for my country would be to Master a ship. Not to much need now in Iraq
for that. The point of the whole thread dunderhead ...was now even
Canada agrees these deserters are scum and not needed as citizens. That
they need to pay the fiddler.

No one wants any of their children to go to war bonehead, but many are
very proud that there children carry on.. and defend freedom. I hope
your parents were proud of your service.

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...
He may have not comitted Treason. But he is a Traitor as well as a
deserter.

A man who cannot honor his word is worthless. Honor your word.
No one wants any of their children to go to war bonehead, but many are
very proud that there children carry on.. and defend freedom. I hope
your parents were proud of your service.

Joe


So, by your own admission, bush jr. is worthless and a traitor? Funny that
the bush twins aren't serving their country proudly. Wonder why?

John Cairns

"John Cairns" wrote

Funny that
the bush twins aren't serving their country proudly. Wonder why?


You've got it all wrong. The country is serving the Bush twins --- at
bars all across this great land . . .

CN

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:17:22 -0500, DSK wrote
this crap:

Horvath wrote:
You are incorrect, again. He was never given a command by the
British.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold

"Arnold was appointed brigadier beneral in the British Army and engaged
Continental forces on a few occasions. One significant battle occurred
on January 5, 1781 when Richmond, Virginia was burned by British naval
forces led by Arnold."

YMMV

DSK


That's correct. Your pussy ass finally rises to a challenge.


I still spit on you.





This post is 100% free of steroids

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:45:38 -0800, "JG" wrote
this crap:

I'm willing to bet that Horvath never apologizes or admits his error.


What error, Jon-boy?





This post is 100% free of steroids

Joe wrote:
He may have not comitted Treason. But he is a Traitor as well as a
deserter.


I guess there's no need to go by the old fashioned quaint method of a
trial, nor any of that innocent until proven guilty stuff, eh Joe? just
assume he's guilty because you're inflamed with hatred. And not only
that, but call him names too.


A man who cannot honor his word is worthless. Honor your word.


Uh huh. You seem to forget to apply that principle sometimes. What about
finding Osama? What about WMDs?


Show me where I said Torture is justified..


Dozens of posts over the past few months.

First you insisted that it wasn't taking place. Then you insisted that
it was all just some good clean fun. Then you started calling me names.
All through the whole procedure you insisted that when fighting evil
terrorists, that we must become as evil as they are... not quite in
those words, of course...



I said your and my defination of torture is different. I do not endorse
or support any torture.


Really? What if by extreme torture, like maiming or killing one of those
evil terrorists, we might possibly get info that would save an American
soldier? You raised that exact issue and expressed strong approval.


You did not listen...

You just think so, because now you're own words are biting you.

... I did my tour, I do not think I'm to old to do
another... but Uncle sam say I'm to old for our military at 43.

Give it try, Joe. Go on down to the recruiter. If he really says you're
too old, then lie about your age. It's nothing but a number, right?

You believe the Iraq war is right, and moral, and justified, yet you are
looking for excuses to not serve. And at the same time, you are
hollering all kinds of insults against others for not serving.

Personally, I bet the Army is desperate enough for warm bodies that
they'd take you. I know reservists in their 50s getting sent over to Iraq.




... If
there comes a time when Im needed I be the first in line Bucko.

Talk is cheap.


....The point of the whole thread dunderhead ...was now even
Canada agrees these deserters are scum and not needed as citizens. That
they need to pay the fiddler.


AFAIK Canada has said no such thing. They simply will not grant asylum
to the deserters.



No one wants any of their children to go to war bonehead

Really? Then why are you so enthusiastic about this Iraq war? Why are
you foaming at the mouth about how awful these guys are? The one in
particular you pointed out has already done a tour in Afghanistan, yet
you called him a coward and a traitor.


.... but many are
very proud that there children carry on.. and defend freedom. I hope
your parents were proud of your service.


Of course. And I am proud of the fact that every generation of my family
has served in the US military since we have been living here, in some
branches of the family that goes back to the Revolutionary War.

That does not give me the right to call other people horrible names, nor
to make feeble excuses why my gov't lied in order to start a war for
their own profit, and established a policy of torturing prisoners.

Douglas King ex-BT1(SW)

Joe wrote:
He may have not comitted Treason. But he is a Traitor as well as a
deserter.


I guess there's no need to go by the old fashioned quaint method of a
trial, nor any of that innocent until proven guilty stuff, eh Joe?


He will get a court marshall. He went on TV and admitted he was a
traitor. What about that do you not understand?

just
assume he's guilty because you're inflamed with hatred. And not only
that, but call him names too.

I call a spade a spade.

A man who cannot honor his word is worthless. Honor your word.


Uh huh. You seem to forget to apply that principle sometimes. What
about
finding Osama? What about WMDs?

The hunts not over of Ossama, Saddam had WMD and filed to prove he
disarmed. Blame Saddam.


Show me where I said Torture is justified..


Dozens of posts over the past few months.

Show me one

First you insisted that it wasn't taking place. Then you insisted that
it was all just some good clean fun. Then you started calling me names.

All through the whole procedure you insisted that when fighting evil
terrorists, that we must become as evil as they are... not quite in
those words, of course...


Yeah not quite..


I said your and my defination of torture is different. I do not
endorse
or support any torture.


Really? What if by extreme torture, like maiming or killing one of
those
evil terrorists, we might possibly get info that would save an American

soldier? You raised that exact issue and expressed strong approval.

No I did not....Prove it....post it..


You did not listen...


You just think so, because now you're own words are biting you.


Show me thoses words..I suspect it is your twisted version as usual of
mine & others words here.



... I did my tour, I do not think I'm to old to do
another... but Uncle sam say I'm to old for our military at 43.


Give it try, Joe. Go on down to the recruiter. If he really says you're

too old, then lie about your age. It's nothing but a number, right?


Wrong. The FBI does a check on your fingerprints, I be discovered
before I made it thru Bootcamp. Are you sure you were in the service?
....Let me guess, your tying to be a smart ass right?

You believe the Iraq war is right, and moral, and justified, yet you
are
looking for excuses to not serve. And at the same time, you are
hollering all kinds of insults against others for not serving.


Your twisting things again doug. I have nothing bad to say about anyone
that feel the service is not suited to them. What I have a beef about
is people that join the service then desert.



Personally, I bet the Army is desperate enough for warm bodies that
they'd take you. I know reservists in their 50s getting sent over to
Iraq.



... If
there comes a time when Im needed I be the first in line Bucko.


Talk is cheap.


....The point of the whole thread dunderhead ...was now even
Canada agrees these deserters are scum and not needed as citizens.
That
they need to pay the fiddler.


AFAIK Canada has said no such thing. They simply will not grant asylum
to the deserters.

Duhhhhhhhh. And they feel they will receive fair justice if they are
returned to face justice.



No one wants any of their children to go to war bonehead


Really? Then why are you so enthusiastic about this Iraq war?

I feel everyone on earth deserved to be free.


Why are
you foaming at the mouth about how awful these guys are? The one in
particular you pointed out has already done a tour in Afghanistan, yet
you called him a coward and a traitor.


Foaming at the mouth? Another left wing brainwashed view.
He is a traitor...He admits its. He a coward who ran to Canada instead
of standing up like a man and dealing with the conquences of his
actions. That makes him a coward IMO.

Joe





Douglas King ex-BT1(SW)

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:33:18 -0500, DSK wrote
this crap:


I guess there's no need to go by the old fashioned quaint method of a
trial, nor any of that innocent until proven guilty stuff, eh Joe? just
assume he's guilty because you're inflamed with hatred. And not only
that, but call him names too.


DSK is a lying cocksucker, and a coward.

DSK has posted blatent lies on this newsgroup, and when he is proven
to be a liar, he doesn't have the balls to defend himself.





This post is 100% free of steroids

"Horvath" wrote these truths about Douglas King...

DSK is a lying cocksucker, and a coward.

DSK has posted blatent lies on this newsgroup, and when he is proven
to be a liar, he doesn't have the balls to defend himself.


You forgot to mention he does not have the INTELLECT to defend himself. . .

CN

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:46:09 -0500, Capt. Neal®
wrote this crap:


"Horvath" wrote these truths about Douglas King...

DSK is a lying cocksucker, and a coward.

DSK has posted blatent lies on this newsgroup, and when he is proven
to be a liar, he doesn't have the balls to defend himself.


You forgot to mention he does not have the INTELLECT to defend himself. . .

CN


You are correct, buy yourself a beer.






This post is 100% free of steroids

First and foremost I wish to commend the role of the
USA in the promotion of democracy in the world.
Canada however has contributed to the protection of
democracy on many occasions.. the most significant being..
sending more than 200,000 soldiers to Europe, suffering
more than 50,000 casualties, building tanks, cannons,
fighter planes.. starting in 1939.. and continuing until
the end of World War II in 1945.
Whereas the USA did not enter that war until the
December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbour.
Canadians are brave and willing to share their
resources to protect democracy.
--
Longing to be closer to to the sun, the wind and the sea!
Spiritually at: Latitude 21 degrees 19' 9" North. _!_
Longtitude 157 degrees 56' 31" West. Aloha! ___o_(_)_o___
q