OT-Torture
 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two U.S. human rights groups on Tuesday sued Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, saying he first authorized and then failed to
stop torture of prisoners in Iraq .... "Secretary Rumsfeld bears direct and
ultimate responsibility for this descent into horror by personally
authorizing unlawful interrogation techniques and by abdicating his legal
duty to stop torture," said Lucas Guttentag, lead counsel in the case. The
suit against Rumsfeld focuses on an order he signed on Dec. 2, 2002 which
authorized new interrogation techniques for detainees in the "war on terror"
being held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. The techniques included "stress
positions," hooding, 20-hour interrogations, removal of clothing, exploiting
phobias to induce stress, prolonged isolation and sensory deprivation.
.......

The administration led by President Bush (news - web sites) says only a
handful of low-ranking personnel were involved.

"jlrogers±³©" wrote in message
. com...
Sounds like a frat initiation.

Vito wrote:
The techniques included "stress
positions," hooding, 20-hour interrogations, removal of clothing,
exploiting phobias to induce stress, prolonged isolation and sensory
deprivation. ......


Yes, I agree. My beef is that, having OK'd these "tortures", they let the
grunts take the heat for using them.

The techniques included "stress
positions," hooding, 20-hour interrogations, removal of clothing,
exploiting phobias to induce stress, prolonged isolation and sensory
deprivation. ......

"jlrogers±³©" wrote...
Sounds like a frat initiation.

Vito wrote:
Yes, I agree. My beef is that, having OK'd these "tortures", they let the
grunts take the heat for using them.


You don't mind that these "frat initiation" type procedures killed
number of prisoners?

It's not unknown for hazing to be fatal, but not dozens at one time &
place. And usually a murder prosecution follows.

My beef is that the current group in power have arrogated to themselves
the right to kill or imprison anybody they want, for any reason or no
reason, and use torture. That's generally not accepted among civilized
nations as the way "good guys" behave.

DSK

"DSK" wrote
You don't mind that these "frat initiation" type procedures killed
number of prisoners?

It's not unknown for hazing to be fatal, but not dozens at one time &
place. And usually a murder prosecution follows.

I'm unaware of any prisoners being 'hazed' to death, let alone dozens. The
news hasn't reported serious injuries let alone any deaths. The "tortures"
we've been crying about are putting fake menstrual blood on a prisoner
making him too unclean to pray, parading them naked before women, "harlots"
teasing them until they get an erection, standing hooded on a washtub having
been told that they will be electrocuted if they step off it - all things I
deem hazing instead of torture. If you know of more serious torture like
nails pulled out or bones broken please fill me in.


My beef is that the current group in power have arrogated to themselves
the right to kill or imprison anybody they want, for any reason or no
reason, and use torture. That's generally not accepted among civilized
nations as the way "good guys" behave.

Good beef.

Vito wrote:
I'm unaware of any prisoners being 'hazed' to death, let alone dozens

Well, you haven't been paying attention then. According to the Army
itself, "at least 25" fatalities have occured to prisoners being questioned.

I guess if the pro-Bush/Cheney flacks talk loud & often about how it was
only a little good clean fun then everybody will believe them.

Isn't it interesting how the Army, the Pentagon, the DIA, and other
military sources so often contradict the White House spinmeisters?

DSK

Yeah right, Sure Doug.. whatever... we know you are not bias and take
your word as proof positive.

Uh hu...please provide proof to your "at least 25" quote

Joe

Joe wrote:
Yeah right, Sure Doug.. whatever... we know you are not bias and take
your word as proof positive.

Uh hu...please provide proof to your "at least 25" quote


Of course, this is all from extreme left-wing news sources like AP,
Reuters, etc etc. Note almost all of them are quoting Army or DIA sources


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in614905.shtml
Note the date, the count goes up as time goes by

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR450292004
scroll about 2/3 down... accounts of at least a dozen deaths

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=7609330
another dozen, this time in Afghanistan & Cuba... of course the Bush
Administration denies everything (sound familiar)

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...ck=3&cset=true
seven more, including a few suspicious "suicides"

Is that over 25 yet? This is from the first 3 or 4 pages of Google hits.
I was looking for the Army's report to Congress, which I heard on the
radio. It's in there somewhere I'm sure.

But hey, don't feel you have to believe me. It's all a lot of
America-hating libby-rull hogwash, isn't Joe?

DSK

First story said " No other confirmations of this story could be found"
So you would rather take the word of a dead know combatant that the
word of US officals...figures..

Second from Amnesty intl show more abuse to girls genitals in the UK
than anything going on in Iraq. And I noticed they had nothing to say
about the murders blowing up civilians, chopping off heads, and the use
of roadside bombs.


third said The U.S. military Saturday dismissed concerns expressed by a
U.N. rights investigator about allegations of prisoner abuse in
Afghanistan, saying an internal investigation had found that detainees
were treated humanely. I know you would rather take the word of a U.N.
thief and thats your right. But do not expect me to believe it. Pure
fantasy.

And the last one require me to Log in---Sorry that aint happening. But
so what if a few jihad morons off themselfs because they now know they
are defeated? We should pass out 10 foot sections of rope IMO. What...
you think we should build them rubber rooms?

Your right...looks like a bunch of American Hating libby-rull hogwash
and you went ofter it hook line and sinker.

None of it has any PROOF. And you never supplied a link to your
infamous "at least 25" quote.

And again you would rather dog the USA because of a few rotten apples
than condone the attack that killed 125 and wounded another 130. Did
you see the pictures on the news ?the walls splattered with body parts
and blood, piles of shoes blown off peoples feet, some still contains
feet, people digging thru blood soaked sreads of clothing to try to ID
the dead. All because scumball cowards want to stop democracy...

Sheeze and we are the bad guys right?

Grow Up Doug. Open your eyes.

Joe

Joe wrote:
None of it has any PROOF.

What do you expect Joe? Flaming letters in the sky?

I suspect you didn't read more than the first 3 sentences of each
article. They all referenced Army or DIA reports on prisoner abuse, wich
is why they showed up on a Google search for same.

... And you never supplied a link to your
infamous "at least 25" quote.


I guess you can't add, either. Two dozen here, half a dozen there, 3 or
4 more, ten more, etc etc... That certainly doesn't add up to "at least
25," which is the number I heard reported to Congress.

You might be more tempted to go for this one
http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/terrorism.htm#prisoner

although you'll have to wade through many many pages and do some
counting to add up the deaths. A few minutes reading saw mention of ten
or so deaths.

But hey, that's the dadgum libby-rull traitor Navy official web site!
Buncha left-wing hogwash, huh Joe!

And again you would rather dog the USA because of a few rotten apples

You mean like the rotten apples at the top who ordered the torture?


Sheeze and we are the bad guys right?


Torturing people certainly weakens our claim to be the good guys, which
is why I despise it.

Grow Up Doug. Open your eyes.


My eyes & ears are definitely open, Joe.

Why do you insist that everybody who disagrees with you must be evil
terrorist-lovers? Notice how the same name-calling is starting up
against the AARP... those dadgum libby-rull old people! They should be
tortured too!

I don't quite understand how you can fall for it over and over... unless
you have a deep psychological need to hate others.

DSK

And again you would rather dog the USA because of a few rotten apples
than condone the attack that killed 125 and wounded another 130.

Did you see the pictures on the news? The walls splattered with body
parts and blood, piles of shoes blown off peoples feet, some still
contains feet, people digging thru blood soaked sreads of clothing to
try to ID the dead. All because scumball cowards want to stop
democracy...


Sheeze and we are the bad guys right?

WTF Doug. You seems to have a need to hate our troops because of the
actions of a few. Yet you ignore the real Terror Killing, Maining, and
real abuses of the Iraqi people. Why is that Doug. Do you have a deep
psychological hate for our guys and a set of big ass blinders to the
real evil or what?

Joe

Dave,

Dougboat did not say a dozen.

He quoted "at least 25" said that he heard it on the radio.

Al Shapton has a radio show right.

Does Ted Kennedy, Jane Fonda, the Dixie Chicks, M. Moore, Al Jazeere?

Just wondering what radio Doug tuned into and threw away the knob.

Joe

"DSK" wrote
Vito wrote:
I'm unaware of any prisoners being 'hazed' to death, let alone dozens

Well, you haven't been paying attention then. According to the Army
itself, "at least 25" fatalities have occured to prisoners being
questioned.

I watch the major news channels and read Time but this is the first I've
heard this. Tnx.

"DSK" wrote

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in614905.shtml
Note the date, the count goes up as time goes by
.......

Oh, OK, I was thinking more about systematic torture approved by the brass
rather than more isolated field incidents - not that the latter should be
ignored. In fact, there is a story in this weeks Time about a Marine Lt
shooting two prisoners under questionable circumstances. I didn't consider
that torture - murder maybe, or just a mistake under pressure, but not
torture. The pair died instantly. The Lt is being tried for murder.

Joe wrote:
Sheeze and we are the bad guys right?


Torture? That's what good guys do, right?


WTF Doug. You seems to have a need to hate our troops because of the
actions of a few.

Quote *anything* I have ever posted that even hints that I "hate our
troops."

DSK

Dave wrote:
Not surprising. As you can see from other posts, Doug seems to play a bit
fast and loose with the "facts."

Yeah yeah, when proven wrong, lie. I suppose if we get this tactic from
Vice President Cheney, why shouldn't you play the same cards?

First you insisted there were no fatalities due to US torturing of
prisoners. Now you seem to be backpedaling but still insisting that I
must be wrong.

When will you face reality?

DSK

When will YOU face reality. Your party and your liberal
ideas were soundly rejected in the election in November.

Give it up. You look the fool.

CN


"DSK" wrote in message ...
Dave wrote:
Not surprising. As you can see from other posts, Doug seems to play a bit
fast and loose with the "facts."

Yeah yeah, when proven wrong, lie. I suppose if we get this tactic from
Vice President Cheney, why shouldn't you play the same cards?

First you insisted there were no fatalities due to US torturing of
prisoners. Now you seem to be backpedaling but still insisting that I
must be wrong.

When will you face reality?

DSK

You liberals hate the troops, you hate the war, you hate the Commander-in-Chief,
you hate the country unless it is run by an impeached, liberal, Democrat, slimeball
of a President like your man Clinton.

Face it. Your party lost the election. Nobody wants your brand of liberalism.
You and your ilk are too stupid to realize your ideas are pathetic, your methods
are anti-American, your wish is socialism and your hopes are for this country
to be defeated. You are a joke and your desires are pathetic. You are out of
touch with reality and you can't even realize when you have been rejected.

GET OUT OF HERE!

CN


"DSK" wrote in message ...
Joe wrote:
Sheeze and we are the bad guys right?


Torture? That's what good guys do, right?


WTF Doug. You seems to have a need to hate our troops because of the
actions of a few.

Quote *anything* I have ever posted that even hints that I "hate our
troops."

DSK

First you insisted there were no fatalities due to US torturing of
prisoners.


Dave wrote:
What are you smoking, Doug? Would you please identify the post in which I
said any such thing?


Sorry, I thought you were chiming in with Joe & Vito in claiming that
the torture of U.S. prisoners was just some "good clean fun."

DSK

"DSK" wrote

Sorry, I thought you were chiming in with Joe & Vito in claiming that
the torture of U.S. prisoners was just some "good clean fun."

C'mon Doug, I never said "good clean fun". However I do recognize that
intellegence info from some prisoners is needed to save US lives and see
getting it as a necessary evil. The degree of "torture" condoned should be
comenserate with the value of the info. Suppose a captive knew the location
of a hostage his group planned to behead in 12 hours. How much mental and/or
physical discomfort should I be allowed to inflict to get that info?

Hey Doug,

What about all that good clean fun washing gallons and gallons of
blood, teeth, brains, guts, and such off the block long splatter
pattern from the 125 people blown to bits by the mis-treated insurgents
this week... Now that good clean fun right?

Joe

"Vito" wrote in message

Suppose a captive knew the location
of a hostage his group planned to behead in 12 hours. How much mental
and/or
physical discomfort should I be allowed to inflict to get that info?

Any amount required to extract the information..... but that goes for both
sides and any reason. Problem is that generally speaking.... informaton
extracted under torture is not likely to be accurate nor timely.

CM

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey Doug,

What about all that good clean fun washing gallons and gallons of
blood, teeth, brains, guts, and such off the block long splatter
pattern from the 125 people blown to bits by the mis-treated insurgents
this week... Now that good clean fun right?

No different than one of your cluster bombs landing in a non military area
and killing innocent civilians under the excuse of "war is hell" and
"oops"....

CM

Wrong. One is an accident(if it ever happened), the other is a planned
mass murder.

Big Difference Moron.

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wrong. One is an accident(if it ever happened), the other is a planned
mass murder.

Big Difference Moron.

Not to the victims Joe.... I hardly think they care if it was premeditated
or the result of incompetence. You went in there knowing there would be
civilian casualties... that's premeditated in my books.

CM

Sorry, I thought you were chiming in with Joe & Vito in claiming that
the torture of U.S. prisoners was just some "good clean fun."


Vito wrote:
C'mon Doug, I never said "good clean fun". However I do recognize that
intellegence info from some prisoners is needed to save US lives and see
getting it as a necessary evil.

No, it's not. It's evil, period.

... The degree of "torture" condoned should be
comenserate with the value of the info.

In other words, the ends justify the means? Great little flexible set or
morals ya got there Vito.


... Suppose a captive knew the location
of a hostage his group planned to behead in 12 hours. How much mental and/or
physical discomfort should I be allowed to inflict to get that info?


You'd be a lot more likley to get accurate info with positive
reinforcement, although working against a deadline makes it difficult to
overcome heavy indoctrination.

One of the U.S.'s biggest liabilities in this war against terrorists is
that we have little "human intel" resources. They have to be developed.
It's a lot more likely to be able to 'turn' some of those in custody if
they are well treated and identify *us* as the good guys.

As for what terrorists do with regard to blowing up kids, beheading
innocent victims, etc etc, they are already evil. They have made their
choice. We can not allow them to make moral decisions for us.

That requires a large amount of backbone... some people find that
uncomfortable and prefer to lean on the fractured morals of others.
That's just human nature I guess.

DSK