On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.

What has that got to do with them being legal or illegal. Either way, weak
people will do bad things to themselves.

Horvath wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.


So what? Ive seen thousand wacked out on Jack Daniels and such.

I agree with Gilligan, Legalise it and let the losers snuff themselfs
out,
less burden on the system. The cost will drop, and less drug related
crimes will happen. **** we should do like Canada and give the herion
guys lots of needles and a enough smack to OD.

Joe





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Right you are Joe. Let the weakling kills themselves. If it's legal the
profit motive is less, so less crime. Fat people are addicted to food, you
don;t see them killing for food (yet) or chubbies selling food on the street
corner.

Simply look at what Prohibition did to the US. The war on drugs is the same.
If something is outlawed, it just gives a monopoly to the criminals.

All victimless crimes should be legal.

Gilligan



"Joe" wrote in message
om...
Horvath wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.


So what? Ive seen thousand wacked out on Jack Daniels and such.

I agree with Gilligan, Legalise it and let the losers snuff themselfs
out,
less burden on the system. The cost will drop, and less drug related
crimes will happen. **** we should do like Canada and give the herion
guys lots of needles and a enough smack to OD.

Joe





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

On 24 Nov 2004 18:55:21 -0800, (Joe) wrote
this crap:

Horvath wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.


So what? Ive seen thousand wacked out on Jack Daniels and such.


You have no idea what you are talking about. It's completely
different.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Horvath wrote in message . ..
On 24 Nov 2004 18:55:21 -0800, (Joe) wrote
this crap:

Horvath wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.


So what? Ive seen thousand wacked out on Jack Daniels and such.


You have no idea what you are talking about. It's completely
different.


BULL****! Ive seen it all from junkies covered with cotton feaver
sores to dead drunks with there faces split in half when they had a
head on wreck with a telephone pole. Once I had the pleasure of
scraping a young girl off a submarine she did a swan dive on from 8
stories up, she was drunk and doing acid. Oh and the guy who choked on
his own vomit while on smack, he drowned.

But face it Horvath aint nothing you can do. If they want it they
will get it and take it.

Ive got better things to do then babysit retards who can not control
thier own actions or handle thier drug of choice. And I think anyone
should be free to do or take what ever he or she choses to do. Be an
adult and be responsiable for your own actions.

BTW I also know many people that smoke weed daily and own multi
million dollars businesses or have high profile careers and have no
problem with it at all. Just like I know some people that know when to
say when while drinking.

It aint the type of drug, it's the type of person using that drug.
Like Gilligan said, all victim less crimes should be abolished. And
the people that do victimise others should pay to the max.


Joe








Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

But, how does one define a 'victim'?

Does a victim have to be a human being? If so, it would
not be a crime to kill endangered species. It would
not be a crime to wantonly pollute the environment.
You could just dump your crap anywhere. And what
about shooting somebody's dog. A dog certainly is not
human.

Until you can define 'victim' it is ludicrous to use
the term 'victimless crime'.

Can the environment be a victim? Can a fetus be a victim?
Can an empty building somebody torches be a victim?

"Victimless crime" - a typical example of liberal doublespeak.

Shame on Gilligan and any others for using the term, let
alone advocating for it.

CN


"Joe" wrote in message om...
Horvath wrote in message . ..
On 24 Nov 2004 18:55:21 -0800, (Joe) wrote
this crap:

Horvath wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.


So what? Ive seen thousand wacked out on Jack Daniels and such.


You have no idea what you are talking about. It's completely
different.


BULL****! Ive seen it all from junkies covered with cotton feaver
sores to dead drunks with there faces split in half when they had a
head on wreck with a telephone pole. Once I had the pleasure of
scraping a young girl off a submarine she did a swan dive on from 8
stories up, she was drunk and doing acid. Oh and the guy who choked on
his own vomit while on smack, he drowned.

But face it Horvath aint nothing you can do. If they want it they
will get it and take it.

Ive got better things to do then babysit retards who can not control
thier own actions or handle thier drug of choice. And I think anyone
should be free to do or take what ever he or she choses to do. Be an
adult and be responsiable for your own actions.

BTW I also know many people that smoke weed daily and own multi
million dollars businesses or have high profile careers and have no
problem with it at all. Just like I know some people that know when to
say when while drinking.

It aint the type of drug, it's the type of person using that drug.
Like Gilligan said, all victim less crimes should be abolished. And
the people that do victimise others should pay to the max.


Joe








Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

No shame at all. I'm 100% consistent:

"I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal. I think business should have
minimal regulation. I believe in well defined and vigorously
enforced
property rights. I believe in the Constitution.
You are a wacko Neo-Con. All you can comprehend is far right religious
wackoism or the opposite extreme, far left wackoism. If you choose to drive
down the highway of life with your right tires constantly rubbing the curb,
go ahead. You wacko!

Gilligan, who proudly voted Republican by writing in Goldwater."

All the problems you have mentioned exist because of ill defined property
rights.

Pollution, shooting dog = destroying some elses property.

Victim = someone who has had their unalienable rights violated.

Unalienable rights = life, liberty, property (the fruits of your labor)

Victimless crime = a "crime" created by the state where two or more enter
into a non coercive mutual agreement to the benefit of both parties,
including individual action. The state defines the behavior (even of a
single individual) or outcome of the agreement as a crime. Examples:
prostitution, reading certain material, consuming certain substances,
gambling, smoking, displaying the Declaration of Independence in schools,
hanging the ten commandments in a public place, saying things that may be
"offensive", travel to Cuba, etc. No one's unalienable rights are violated
by these actions.



"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
But, how does one define a 'victim'?

Does a victim have to be a human being? If so, it would
not be a crime to kill endangered species. It would
not be a crime to wantonly pollute the environment.
You could just dump your crap anywhere. And what
about shooting somebody's dog. A dog certainly is not
human.

Until you can define 'victim' it is ludicrous to use
the term 'victimless crime'.

Can the environment be a victim? Can a fetus be a victim?
Can an empty building somebody torches be a victim?

"Victimless crime" - a typical example of liberal doublespeak.

Shame on Gilligan and any others for using the term, let
alone advocating for it.

CN


"Joe" wrote in message
om...
Horvath wrote in message
. ..
On 24 Nov 2004 18:55:21 -0800, (Joe) wrote
this crap:

Horvath wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal
or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.


So what? Ive seen thousand wacked out on Jack Daniels and such.


You have no idea what you are talking about. It's completely
different.


BULL****! Ive seen it all from junkies covered with cotton feaver
sores to dead drunks with there faces split in half when they had a
head on wreck with a telephone pole. Once I had the pleasure of
scraping a young girl off a submarine she did a swan dive on from 8
stories up, she was drunk and doing acid. Oh and the guy who choked on
his own vomit while on smack, he drowned.

But face it Horvath aint nothing you can do. If they want it they
will get it and take it.

Ive got better things to do then babysit retards who can not control
thier own actions or handle thier drug of choice. And I think anyone
should be free to do or take what ever he or she choses to do. Be an
adult and be responsiable for your own actions.

BTW I also know many people that smoke weed daily and own multi
million dollars businesses or have high profile careers and have no
problem with it at all. Just like I know some people that know when to
say when while drinking.

It aint the type of drug, it's the type of person using that drug.
Like Gilligan said, all victim less crimes should be abolished. And
the people that do victimise others should pay to the max.


Joe








Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

We are talking about the term 'victimless crime' and I fail
to see that is exclusively to do with property rights.

Simply not so! Allow me to give you some examples.
Certain things such the very air we breath cannot be
defined as property rights yet laws have been passed
that make it illegal for people to smoke in enclosed
spaces. This is because smoking is not a victimless
crime. Smokers force others to breathe their smoke.
They take away an unalienable right - to breath air
that is clean and does not smell or harm one's health.

There is property such one's lawn, house, dog etc.
You are correct with respect to that. Where your
argument breaks down is on things such as air,
freedom of movement, freedom to think and say
what one wishes. These have nothing whatsoever
to do with property yet they come under the
term unalienable rights.

Let's take abortion. In spite of what liberal Supreme
Court Judges ruled in Roe v. Wade, a woman's right
to choose is NOT an unalienable right. Rather, it is
a legal right conferred by the Court. Why is it not
a victimless crime? It is not a victimless crime because
there is a victim - the aborted baby. Yet it is legal.

Confused? You should be. It proves that the term
victimless crime is too vague to ever expect consideration
when you argue "all victimless crimes should be legal".

What occurs is a prolonged argument of what comprises
a victimless crime and no progress is ever made toward
the goal of legalizing that which cannot be defined
either by property rights or unalienable rights.

A smart libertarian would argue that all unalienable rights
are protected by the Constitution and that to grow and
smoke ones own herb is protected by the Constitution.
Don't call smoking your own homegrown weed
a victimless crime as it is not a crime of any type
according to the Constitution. You already have
one foot in the jailhouse simply because you
admit it is a crime. Adding the word victimless
to the word crime does not negate the fact that
it's still a crime.

Get it.? In words even a mountain man from the liberal
state of Colorado would understand, don't get down
in the mud and wrestle with the pigs - you will find
they like it.

CN




"Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net...
No shame at all. I'm 100% consistent:

"I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal. I think business should have
minimal regulation. I believe in well defined and vigorously
enforced
property rights. I believe in the Constitution.
You are a wacko Neo-Con. All you can comprehend is far right religious
wackoism or the opposite extreme, far left wackoism. If you choose to drive
down the highway of life with your right tires constantly rubbing the curb,
go ahead. You wacko!

Gilligan, who proudly voted Republican by writing in Goldwater."

All the problems you have mentioned exist because of ill defined property
rights.

Pollution, shooting dog = destroying some elses property.

Victim = someone who has had their unalienable rights violated.

Unalienable rights = life, liberty, property (the fruits of your labor)

Victimless crime = a "crime" created by the state where two or more enter
into a non coercive mutual agreement to the benefit of both parties,
including individual action. The state defines the behavior (even of a
single individual) or outcome of the agreement as a crime. Examples:
prostitution, reading certain material, consuming certain substances,
gambling, smoking, displaying the Declaration of Independence in schools,
hanging the ten commandments in a public place, saying things that may be
"offensive", travel to Cuba, etc. No one's unalienable rights are violated
by these actions.



"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
But, how does one define a 'victim'?

Does a victim have to be a human being? If so, it would
not be a crime to kill endangered species. It would
not be a crime to wantonly pollute the environment.
You could just dump your crap anywhere. And what
about shooting somebody's dog. A dog certainly is not
human.

Until you can define 'victim' it is ludicrous to use
the term 'victimless crime'.

Can the environment be a victim? Can a fetus be a victim?
Can an empty building somebody torches be a victim?

"Victimless crime" - a typical example of liberal doublespeak.

Shame on Gilligan and any others for using the term, let
alone advocating for it.

CN


"Joe" wrote in message
om...
Horvath wrote in message
. ..
On 24 Nov 2004 18:55:21 -0800, (Joe) wrote
this crap:

Horvath wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal
or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.


So what? Ive seen thousand wacked out on Jack Daniels and such.


You have no idea what you are talking about. It's completely
different.


BULL****! Ive seen it all from junkies covered with cotton feaver
sores to dead drunks with there faces split in half when they had a
head on wreck with a telephone pole. Once I had the pleasure of
scraping a young girl off a submarine she did a swan dive on from 8
stories up, she was drunk and doing acid. Oh and the guy who choked on
his own vomit while on smack, he drowned.

But face it Horvath aint nothing you can do. If they want it they
will get it and take it.

Ive got better things to do then babysit retards who can not control
thier own actions or handle thier drug of choice. And I think anyone
should be free to do or take what ever he or she choses to do. Be an
adult and be responsiable for your own actions.

BTW I also know many people that smoke weed daily and own multi
million dollars businesses or have high profile careers and have no
problem with it at all. Just like I know some people that know when to
say when while drinking.

It aint the type of drug, it's the type of person using that drug.
Like Gilligan said, all victim less crimes should be abolished. And
the people that do victimise others should pay to the max.


Joe








Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Capt. Neal® wrote in message ...
But, how does one define a 'victim'?

Victim: Someone hurt by someones elses actions.


Does a victim have to be a human being? If so, it would
not be a crime to kill endangered species.

yes it would, you would be taking that species away from other people
who enjoy them. Its like stealing.

It would
not be a crime to wantonly pollute the environment.

yes it would. You do not own the enviroment...it owns you.

You could just dump your crap anywhere.

Then others would have to pay to clean it up. The ones who pay are
victims.

And what
about shooting somebody's dog. A dog certainly is not
human.

It is property of another human. And it has a right to be treated
humainly.


Until you can define 'victim' it is ludicrous to use
the term 'victimless crime'.

Can the environment be a victim?

Yes

Can a fetus be a victim?

Yes

Can an empty building somebody torches be a victim?

Yes if it has an owner, or someone has to pay to put it out.

"Victimless crime" - a typical example of liberal doublespeak.

It's not that complicated Neal.

Joe


Shame on Gilligan and any others for using the term, let
alone advocating for it.

CN






"Joe" wrote in message om...
Horvath wrote in message . ..
On 24 Nov 2004 18:55:21 -0800, (Joe) wrote
this crap:

Horvath wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:16:27 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

I'm no liberal in the modern sense at all. I'm a classic liberal or
libertarian. I think drugs should be legal.


You've probably never seen one of your good friends whacked out on
coke.


So what? Ive seen thousand wacked out on Jack Daniels and such.


You have no idea what you are talking about. It's completely
different.


BULL****! Ive seen it all from junkies covered with cotton feaver
sores to dead drunks with there faces split in half when they had a
head on wreck with a telephone pole. Once I had the pleasure of
scraping a young girl off a submarine she did a swan dive on from 8
stories up, she was drunk and doing acid. Oh and the guy who choked on
his own vomit while on smack, he drowned.

But face it Horvath aint nothing you can do. If they want it they
will get it and take it.

Ive got better things to do then babysit retards who can not control
thier own actions or handle thier drug of choice. And I think anyone
should be free to do or take what ever he or she choses to do. Be an
adult and be responsiable for your own actions.

BTW I also know many people that smoke weed daily and own multi
million dollars businesses or have high profile careers and have no
problem with it at all. Just like I know some people that know when to
say when while drinking.

It aint the type of drug, it's the type of person using that drug.
Like Gilligan said, all victim less crimes should be abolished. And
the people that do victimise others should pay to the max.


Joe








Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!