I was born there.....

CM

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
I've never been there.

Scotty

"Scout" wrote in message
...
we'd all have to go back to Africa
Scout

"katysails" wrote in message
...
So if everyone is from somewhere else, and we all go back to where
we came
from, would the world be any better?
Or any different?

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote
Donal wrote:
Quite correct, Neal! Especially in Australia - where the
land has
all
been
stolen from the (ab)original owners.

Same in America... including South America. Same in much of
Europe too,
especially those islands sticking out at the top.

And in Israel .... and the theft is still proceding.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Vito wrote:
Oy, talk about a narrow viewpoint. Ever wonder why you cannot comment or
diasgree without launching an ad hominum attack?

???

Other than to point out that you're wrong, please point to any 'ad
hominem' attacks I've made.

I'd call "narrow viewpoint" such an attack - of course if you're from NYC or
similar culture YMMV


Recent DNA studies show that, rather than stealing from the Canaanites,
the
Jews were simply Canaanites with a different religion

Baloney. References, please.

Discovery Channel


Meanwhile, back at the ranch, or rather about 70AD IIRC, Rome tired of
koher
pigheadeness, slaughtered the troublemakers and packed the rest into
exile
throughout the empire as slaves.

The Jewish Diaspora was less than 50% of the population. .....

That's not what the emperor was told .... orders were "kill 'em all" If you
know otherwise please cite.

That leaves a very large percent still there chugging along day to day.

Rather that leaves a very large number of people chugging along, including a
few Jews gone underground.

... Some (most?) of these people kept their
religion but lost their Canaan ethenicity and culture and took on those
of
their hosts over the next two millenia. Then along came Hitler

No notable event in almost two thousand years? Isn't this leaving out a
good bit?

Nothing important to this discussion. Christians tried their best to
destroy all of the knowledge and science western man ahd accumulated and
replace it with their myths but that has little effect on Euro-Jewish
history.


Having no place to go, but with historial ties to Roman Judea, these
EUROPEANS invaded what had become Palistine and created the Jewish State
of
Israel.

Uh huh. If this were the case, then what was the Balfour Doctrine all
about, about twenty years earlier? And why would Balfour, an English
politician, have found it expedient to make any statements on the
subject unless there were a politically (& economically... never forget
the money angle!) significant Zionist movement already under way?

I never said there was NO Zionist movement - a flow of outsiders into
Palistine - before the war. But it was a trickle compared to the flood of
"DPs" that came after. Until the halocost, Euro Jews had as little interest
in moving to Palistine as US Jews do today - they had their own rich
comfortable Euro-Jewish culture, even their own language (Yiddish). The few
who did go were assimilated.

Noted and approved. You're a better man than I. Now all you need are at
least one or two facts.

I'm sorry. You are right of course. The whole world, which is flat and
square, was once flooded, Moishe did indeed part the Red Sea (not the sea of
reeds mentioned in the original myth), Joshuah bit the bottle of Geritol,
and so on. Glory gee to bezus!

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:22:35 -0500, DSK said:

No notable event in almost two thousand years? Isn't this leaving out a
good bit?

You mean inconsequential things like the Inquisition?

That oughta get Vito going.

Naw, it was pretty inconsequential to Jews - just another pogrom.

Other than to point out that you're wrong, please point to any 'ad
hominem' attacks I've made.


Vito wrote:
I'd call "narrow viewpoint" such an attack

OK, I apologize for calling your viewpoint narrow. I should have
realized you'd be offended at any expectation of including real world facts.




Jews were simply Canaanites with a different religion

Baloney. References, please.


Discovery Channel

Oh, you saw it on TV so it's a definite fact?

Please explain how DNA testing can identify the consanguinity between
people who lived 3,000 years ago, when the identity of the people tested
is an open question.


The Jewish Diaspora was less than 50% of the population. .....


That's not what the emperor was told .... orders were "kill 'em all" If you
know otherwise please cite.

I suggest you read a bit of actual history. The episodes in question can
be found in Vespasian, Trajan, and Josephus. Some of the Septuarchy
talks a lot about it too.



That leaves a very large percent still there chugging along day to day.


Rather that leaves a very large number of people chugging along, including a
few Jews gone underground.

???

A thousand years later, the Crusaders found large Jewish populations in
the Holy Land. The Muslim rulers of the area, under various dynasties,
usually found it prudent & profitable to give a number of special
dispensations to Jews in these territories.


No notable event in almost two thousand years? Isn't this leaving out a
good bit?

Nothing important to this discussion.

In other words, nothing that supports your statements. A large number of
events that contradict them, though.



... Christians tried their best to
destroy all of the knowledge and science western man ahd accumulated and
replace it with their myths but that has little effect on Euro-Jewish
history.

???

It seems likely that the Christian churches adopted/adapted local
customs and pagan rituals & holidays wholesale. What does a tree have to
do with Christmas, or a bunny with Easter? You're getting your eras and
epochs all confused. The Catholic Church was the repository of all
knowledge in the West, and all types of learning was sought after. Look
at some of the stories of pilgrimages, bringing back scrolls of
Aristotle etc etc. Read a bit about Alfred the Great, Alcuin, the
Carolingian Renaissance, etc etc.

The Church did not set itself against knowledge until the later
Renaissance, when science began to contradict some of the doctrines the
Church had simply made up generations earlier.

Then you have people like Bishop Ussher, who no doubt was a fairly
intelligent man, but applied his brainpower rather foolishly and the
result of course is laughed at. The Church decided at some point to deal
in hocus-pocus and fol-de-rol instead of actual knowledge, probably
because it's easier to pretend to be smart than to actually learn stuff
and peasants usually don't know the difference.

The result plagues our society today.



Having no place to go, but with historial ties to Roman Judea, these
EUROPEANS invaded what had become Palistine and created the Jewish State
of
Israel.


Uh huh. If this were the case, then what was the Balfour Doctrine all
about, about twenty years earlier?


I never said there was NO Zionist movement

Oh, OK. You just forgot to mention it and would prefer to think it's an
insignificant little detail, right?

... - a flow of outsiders into
Palistine - before the war.

Well, where do you think the "Palestinians" came from? Dropped from
Heaven into that place? They were merely another group who wandered in
and usurped the land. So why, in your opinion, does their right to
accupy historical Judea and Israel supercede the Jews? Does this right
include killing all Jews who happen to still live there and stealing
their property?



.... Until the halocost, Euro Jews had as little interest
in moving to Palistine as US Jews do today - they had their own rich
comfortable Euro-Jewish culture, even their own language (Yiddish). The few
who did go were assimilated.

IMHO that's a bit of an exaggeration. It's true that emigration into
Israel picked up quite a lot after WW2... the biggest numbers were from
Russia, though. And it's only logical that once the state of Israel was
established and a going concern, that more Jewish people moved there.
BTW Quite a lot of them did not speak Yiddish at all. Please note that
Yiddish at this point is basically a dead language, Israel's language is
Hebrew.

So? You want to be called an 'African-Canadian?

SV

"Overproof" wrote in message
news:Ej_qd.209200$df2.50711@edtnps89...
I was born there.....

CM

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
I've never been there.

Scotty

"Scout" wrote in message
...
we'd all have to go back to Africa
Scout

"katysails" wrote in message
...
So if everyone is from somewhere else, and we all go back to
where
we came
from, would the world be any better?
Or any different?

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote
Donal wrote:
Quite correct, Neal! Especially in Australia - where the
land has
all
been
stolen from the (ab)original owners.

Same in America... including South America. Same in much of
Europe too,
especially those islands sticking out at the top.

And in Israel .... and the theft is still proceding.

"DSK" wrote
Vito wrote:

Jews were simply Canaanites with a different religion

Please explain how DNA testing can identify the consanguinity between
people who lived 3,000 years ago, when the identity of the people tested
is an open question.

Simple. According to legend Moishe's people came from near what's now
Baghdad via Egypt, killed all of the indigineous peoples in the "promised
land" and replaced them. Were that true there would be DNA evidence that
one gene pool had been replaced by another. Just the opposite is true.

Yiddish at this point is basically a dead language,....

That's not what I hear from the Bronx ... as in Bronx cheer.

I had no intent of covering all of history in this forum nor debating
whether 50% or 49% or 1% of Jews escaped the Diaspora, especially with
anyone who "knows" that only Jews lived in Roman Judea but doesn't
understand genetic research - not because I deem you stupid but because such
religious beliefs cannot be challenged with truth. I made the simple
statement that Jews driven from Judea 2000 years ago had become ethnic and
cultural Europeans and that European Jews immigrated into Palestine after
ww2 to establish a Jewish state and displace the indigenous residents. The
point being that they had less right to do that as Boston's Irish have to
murder the residents of Ireland and take their place. Rather than accept
that you dissemble, bringing in and exaggerating impertinent information.
Who cares if 50% or 1% of Jews escaped Rome's diaspora - the point you'd
rather dodge is that the other 50% or 99% got hauled away elsewhere where
they intermarried with and absorbed the culture of their new neighbors. Then
after WW2 a flood of European "DPs" invaded Palistine to displace the
indigineous peoples thereof. What happened in between is moot except for the
fact that these Caananite Jews had became Europeans.

regards

Please explain how DNA testing can identify the consanguinity between
people who lived 3,000 years ago, when the identity of the people tested
is an open question.


Vito wrote:
Simple. According to legend Moishe's people came from near what's now
Baghdad via Egypt, killed all of the indigineous peoples in the "promised
land" and replaced them. Were that true there would be DNA evidence that
one gene pool had been replaced by another. Just the opposite is true.

You've ignored the basic barrier to answering the question.

How do you know the identities of the people you're getting the DNA from
after 3,000 years?

You assertions are of no value until you answer this first.

BTW in ancient warfare it was extremely uncommon to kill all the
defeated people. Where do you think slave girls & concubines came from?



I had no intent of covering all of history in this forum

Do you have any intention of discussing history?

... nor debating
whether 50% or 49% or 1% of Jews escaped the Diaspora, especially with
anyone who "knows" that only Jews lived in Roman Judea but doesn't
understand genetic research

!!!

You know all about it, you saw it on TV!


religious beliefs cannot be challenged with truth. I made the simple
statement that Jews driven from Judea 2000 years ago had become ethnic and
cultural Europeans

Somewhat, sure. But they were enough different from Christian Europeans
to be expelled and to suffer pogroms.

... and that European Jews immigrated into Palestine after
ww2 to establish a Jewish state

Slightly true but ignores 90% of what really happened to establish Israel.

... and displace the indigenous residents.

That doesn't seem to have been the Jews intention in 1947 and '48. What
really happened is that the Arabs rejected the partition, wanted *all*
the land and all Jewish property, and plotted to kill the Jews once the
British Army left them alone. Instead they got a big surprise and have
been crying "no fair, do over!" ever since.

DSK

So? You want to be called an 'African-Canadian?


Dave wrote:
Well, Mrs. Kerry says she's "African-American."


She was born in Africa, nyet??

DSK

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
Thom, take you're comments elsewhere. The only idiot I see in this tread is
the ancient geezer who has stopped thinking rationally.

--

Thats because your the idiot Jon,

Ol Thom voted as a democrat most likely to party loyality that led way
back to years when the Democratic party has some decent leaders. He
has an excuse.

You and your type have so soiled the democrat party that Ol Thom kinda
feels like he should have taken a better look at todays Democrats....
I'm guessing.

You on the other hand show clearly just how far off track the
democraps have de-railed. People like Ol Tom are your only chance to
ever get back to a party that will have an ounce of respect.

And any commet Ol Thom makes will be seen by all as a 1000 times more
crediable than your comments and ability to gay up everything.

Joe











"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Oz,

Looks like you're an idiot there as well as Jon and Nutsy here. A
minority in both countries. I'm no better, I voted with the idiots.

So, its wallow 'round the sad boys, wallow 'round, cause we're going
down!!

Ole Thom

No... you can call me Capt. Mooron... like everyone else. I'm 100%
thoroughbred Belgian! I'm proud of that fact and my global history only adds
to make me much greater than the sum of my parts.

Capt. Mooron.... Spawned in the Hot, Humid Jungle of the African Congo.....
Forged in the Rugged North Atlantic.... and Tempered by the Cold Arctic
Ice!!

You only wish you were this good!..... :-D

CM


"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
So? You want to be called an 'African-Canadian?

SV

"Overproof" wrote in message
news:Ej_qd.209200$df2.50711@edtnps89...
I was born there.....

CM

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
I've never been there.

Scotty

"Scout" wrote in message
...
we'd all have to go back to Africa
Scout

"katysails" wrote in message
...
So if everyone is from somewhere else, and we all go back to
where
we came
from, would the world be any better?
Or any different?

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote
Donal wrote:
Quite correct, Neal! Especially in Australia - where the
land has
all
been
stolen from the (ab)original owners.

Same in America... including South America. Same in much of
Europe too,
especially those islands sticking out at the top.

And in Israel .... and the theft is still proceding.