Dave wrote:
Doug, you're starting to sound like the very caricature of the loony left.

It sounds that way to you because you're one of the loony right.

My beliefs & values are actually rather conservative, but because I
don't buy into your heavily advertised fascist whacko malarkey, to you I
must be a liberal. Shucks, don't hold back, Bart has already called me a
traitor! Why let him get ahead of you?

DSK

Bush doesn't have to have a history of twisting the truth,
since he lies constantly. He doesn't believe that issues
can be complex, because he's simple minded.

But, beyond that, if you believe that we're better off
economically and we're safer and more respected in
the world, you should vote for and encourage your
friends to vote for Bush.

If you believe otherwise, for for Kerry.

If you believe that there is no real difference between
the major parties, vote for Nader.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
DSK wrote in message
...
Bart Senior wrote:
As of May 17, 220 of the 229 Swift boat veterans
contacted by the group have agreed to sign an open
letter to Senator John F. Kerry that challenges his
fitness to serve as America's Commander-in-Chief.

I guess this is a good example of how "conservatives" always tell the
whole truth and nothing but the truth, Bart.

This is nothing but a trumped-up advertising campaign, of no more
substance or merit that a Pepsi commercial.

DSK

So what your saying Doug is all the officers Kerry served under are
liars?
That they just made up everything.

Seems quite a few people that were in Vietnam with Kerry see things a
whole lot differently than Kerry did. Kerry has a history of twisting
the truth, and the officers and men that sent the open letter to Kerry
do not.

So.... whos word should we trust?

Joe

As are mine. But, Dave and company are so blinded by
ideology that anyone who takes a dissenting view is
an extremist liberal.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Dave wrote:
Doug, you're starting to sound like the very caricature of the loony
left.

It sounds that way to you because you're one of the loony right.

My beliefs & values are actually rather conservative, but because I
don't buy into your heavily advertised fascist whacko malarkey, to you I
must be a liberal. Shucks, don't hold back, Bart has already called me a
traitor! Why let him get ahead of you?

DSK

The soul?? Doubtful.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:35:21 -0400, DSK said:

Shucks, don't hold back, Bart has already called me a
traitor! Why let him get ahead of you?

Nah. I leave the name calling to you and Jonathan. I'm the soul of
moderation. g

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

"Michael Moore...may win an Oscar for the kind of work that got Stephen
Glass, Jayson Blair, and Jack Kelly fired"--NPR's Scott Simon

Of course... look it up.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 12:20:31 -0400, DSK said:

In other words, 220 out of 229 Vietnam vets who *might* have some
possible tracable connection to Kerry decided that they would become
paid shills for Bush.

That's a fairly serious charge--that they're being paid for what they say.
Any evidence to back up the charge?


It seems likely to me that many of these names
quoted are totally fictional anyway.

Again, a fairly serious charge. What's the evidence?

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

"Michael Moore...may win an Oscar for the kind of work that got Stephen
Glass, Jayson Blair, and Jack Kelly fired"--NPR's Scott Simon

Your hero?? I'm shocked, shocked!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
We did to Saddam what we should of done to Hitler before he gained so
much power. Everyone knows how evil Saddam was.

Joe

If you're incapable of looking it up for yourself, then
my giving you links won't do any good.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:14:19 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
said:

Of course... look it up.

So I take it you don't have any evidence of the charges Doug is leveling
either.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...rans_for_Truth

They'd be more aptly named "Swift Boat Veterans for Dishonesty".


"Bart Senior" wrote in message ...
As of May 17, 220 of the 229 Swift boat veterans
contacted by the group have agreed to sign an open
letter to Senator John F. Kerry that challenges his
fitness to serve as America's Commander-in-Chief.

Signers of the letter include the entire chain of command
above Lt. John Kerry in Vietnam: Lt. Commander Grant
Hibbard, Lt. Commander George Elliott, Captain Charles
Plumly, Captain Adrian Lonsdale USCG, and Rear
Admiral Roy Hoffman.

Hear what they have to say about John Kerry.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/st...40515063551324

Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing,
manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the
most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant
supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)

"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and
river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw
or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities
described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been
my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority,
and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry
actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as
he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report
them. That he did not until later when it suited his political
purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind.
That he would malign my service and that of his fellow
sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally
unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."
-- Jeffrey Wainscott

"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour
indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation
with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing
from some members of that crew the morning after revealed
that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg)
Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch
on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared
to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to
me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had
exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being
advised of any medical treatment, and probably said
something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart
for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or w
hom.

Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA
after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he
proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them
criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are
here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of
engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of
Swift often did not even return fire when they were under
fire if there was a possibility that innocent people--fishermen,
in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and
the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that
we might take friendly casualties."
-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)

"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some
outrageous statements and allegations... numerous criminal
acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry,
disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict.
Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam?
Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry
gave numerous speeches and testimony before Congress
inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what
was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting
men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they
were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those
within the chain of command.

Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas
Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo
Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing
subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and
property of Vietnamese civilians."
-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)

"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them,
and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain
of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It
was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not
reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men
including Lt.(jg) Kerry.

In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the
television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men
and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains
-- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the
Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of
the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls
one to think about it."
-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)

"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander
at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the
end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the
Navy units.

Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in
my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because
the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I
could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was
booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the
waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to
market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our
operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a
formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover
and so on. That conference never happened..."
-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired)

worth considering--

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/

zobicus wrote:

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...rans_for_Truth

They'd be more aptly named "Swift Boat Veterans for Dishonesty".

The fact that their website is .com rather than .org suggests that they
are not a public service organization. A '527 organization' is defined
as one that tries to "influence the selection, nomination, election or
appointment of an individual to a federal, state, or local public office
or office in a political organization." In other words, they say they
are non-partisan and just trying to give us the facts but the fact they
*don't* give is that they are partisan by definition.

But let's be fair, take a look for yourself.
http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php

They say (quote):
"Senator John Kerry has made his 4-month combat tour in Vietnam the
centerpiece of his bid for the Presidency."

Actually, that's not the case. The Republicans have made Kerry's Viet
Nam record the centerpiece of *their* campaign against him.

Isn't it curious that this group had nothing to say during the
Democratic primaries? I also think it's rather curious that this group
of vets have nothing at all to say about requiring President Bush to
give some more details of *his* service.

DSK

You would suspect wrong.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:50:12 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
said:

If you're incapable of looking it up for yourself, then
my giving you links won't do any good.

I suspect you don't play poker very well either.