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Teaching question
Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry.
I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Teaching question
I would increase spending on her education. Results are in direct proportion
to money spent. BC "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Teaching question
Jon,
I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and 50% is about people and getting them to work together smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that. I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a solution. Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in. My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory. Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each other. Other instructors I know have reported similar problems. I've taught three women with identical problems to your student. These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success. These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent. One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20 minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory problems. Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable to hold a permanent position. At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn. My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory, or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly. Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever it is, it's a physical limitation. I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them, to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory problems I've found the people rush away after class like they are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues because it threatens their self esteem. I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest of the crew. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no place for such people. My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal person, but it would someone with memory problems. At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often get lost often while driving. Ask about that. Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings, and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical issue. Bart Jonathan Ganz wrote I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
wrote in message
... On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:46:52 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz" wrote: Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She's been conditioned to fail. She probably feels guilt when she does anything right,.... She needs to do SOMETHING, and she knows it. I agree! I've known a number of people like that - often women from religeous homes. She may snap out of it with continued successes, even slow ones, and lots of praise, but she might not without professional help. Question is, as an instructor do you want to take on the responsibility, recognizing that helping her may lead to emotional involvment. If yes, never criticize HER. If you need to correct her say "That's incorrect" never "YOU are wrong". If not, do what you can but gently recommend behavior modification counseling (deprogramming) by telling her that she is holding herself back. |
Teaching question
Did you consider asking her, in the most polite fashion possible, how you
might be able to help. Be honest with her, tell her what you're thinking, then go from there. John Cairns "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Teaching question
Bart:
Most women are not spatially oriented as men are. I've worked extensively with women machinists, technicians, electrical and mechanical engineers. As a general rule, spatial things such as tying knots, running rigging, routing circuit boards, running pipes etc, women are at a handicap compared to men. It's not their fault, they are wired differently. Yes, the rare woman can perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception. Women excel at other things that men have a poor time doing. Learn to accept the differences, respect them and make the most of it. For the most part, sailing is man's world. Putting women into it will not ruin sailing, but could lead to the ruination of women. Bob Crantz "Bart Senior" wrote in message t... Jon, I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and 50% is about people and getting them to work together smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that. I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a solution. Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in. My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory. Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each other. Other instructors I know have reported similar problems. I've taught three women with identical problems to your student. These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success. These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent. One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20 minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory problems. Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable to hold a permanent position. At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn. My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory, or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly. Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever it is, it's a physical limitation. I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them, to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory problems I've found the people rush away after class like they are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues because it threatens their self esteem. I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest of the crew. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no place for such people. My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal person, but it would someone with memory problems. At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often get lost often while driving. Ask about that. Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings, and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical issue. Bart Jonathan Ganz wrote I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
Women have smaller brains than that of their male counterpart. Since the
ability to think is partly determined by the size of the brain it is obvious to an accurate researcher if I were to ignore the differences between the male and female brain. The question to be posed is, with the knowledge of the function of the human brain, can a scientist accurately determine if the differences in the way males and females perform various tasks is a biological phenomena, or rather as a result of social persuasion? All kinds of research have shown that the bigger the brain, generally, the smarter the animal. (1) However, as Emily Dickinson might agree, it is not the size of the brain that counts, but rather what is contained within the brain. Human male brains are, on average, approximately 10% larger than that of the female, but this is because of men's larger body size: more muscle cells imply more neurons to control them. (3) If the size of the brain is not the determinate factor of the differences between the male and female brain what is? Of special interest to researchers of this subject was the amount of gray matter, the part of the brain that allows us to think. The researchers wanted to know if women have as much gray matter as men. (1) It would be logical to conclude that if there is less gray matter, the component of the brain associated with the thinking process, than obviously, biologically men and superior in intellect to women. However, as is the case with many biological researches, more questions arose than were answered. According to one psychology professor at the University of Pennsylvania, there is no difference in the amount of gray matter in men and women. To make up for the smaller brain size, women have 55.4% gray matter vs. 50.8% in men. (1) Thus disputing the hypothesis that the difference in amount of gray matter is the reason for the difference in the way men and woman perform various tasks. If this is an accurate conclusion, the question still remains, why are men more inclined to perform better on spatial, intuitive, nonverbal tasks, such as mathematics, while woman tend to excel at verbal, sorting, detail-oriented tasks such as English? (4) Some scientists believe that the answer to this question lies in the evolutionary development of the brain. Over the last couple of decades, proponents of evolutionary psychology have been piecing together a case that the mind is naturally sexed. Our male and female forebears faced different evolutionary pressures in their struggle to survive and reproduce in the Pleistocene grasslands, and as a result they have different mental aptitudes and even differently organized brains. (5) This would suggest that since men were the ones that hunted they are better equipped to analyze spatial-oriented tasks. At first this appears a logical conclusion. In order to hunt for food the male would have to be aware of how far the prey is. However, I have to question, if humans are simply animals, then why can this logical not be applied to all animals? In the jungle the lioness is the one that hunts, not the lion. Yet, although the lioness is the provider, and is capable of defending herself, since they travel in packs, the lion is considered the King of the jungle. I believe that it would be viewed as preposterous to suggest that we would have a Queen of the jungle instead of a King. The reason for this is not biological, but rather a social aspect. Recent decades have witnessed two contradictory processes: the development of scientific research into the differences between the sexes, and the political denial that such differences exist. A hundred years ago, the observation that men were different from women, in a whole range of aptitudes, skills, and abilities, would have been leaden truism, a statement of the yawning obvious. Such a remark, uttered today, would evoke very different reactions. Said by a man, it would suggest a certain social ineptitude, a naïveté in matters of sexual politics. A woman venturing such an opinion would be scorned as a traitor to her sex, betraying the hard-fought "victories" of recent decades as women have sought equality of status, opportunity and respect. (2) Imagine a Bryn Mawr woman saying that biologically women are inferior to men. This would be an affront to the feminist movement that our "politically correct" society has been forced to include. Yes, women tend to be more verbal; this has been supported by tests, which revealed that females speak twice as many words as the man, and has done so even before the age of two. (4) Yes, men tend to receive higher scores on logic-oriented tests; comparing the scores of SATs can support this. Women score significantly lower than men on the SAT. In 1994, the most recent information available, they had an average score of 881 (out of a possible 1600 points, 400 is the minimum), while men scored an average of 926 points, nearly 50 points higher. (6) Despite the information presented to show that there is a difference in the way the male and female brain operates, I still fail to see how any of the information presented proves that one sex is superior to that of another. There are several well-known female mathematicians and scientists. This fact disproves the idea that men are superior to women in logical tasks. Langston Hughes is a famous male poet, which would disprove the idea that females are superior to men linguistically. However, the addition of the word "generally" does make a difference. I would have to agree that generally there are intellectual tasks that men are better at than females. However, I am not convinced that this is a biological superiority, rather than social. Are women naturally more inclined to play with Barbie Dolls, or is the societal expectation to do this the cause. Is it the societal expectation for a man to use his wit to be the "bread winner" in the family, the real reason why male dancers are not as respected as a male scientist? What is biological predisposition, and societal demand? So far, research has only been able to point out the aesthetic differences of the male and female brain, and to speculate what these differences mean in terms of the way in which the two sexes perform various tasks. Therefore I must still maintain the phrase that was instilled in me by my father; I am capable of doing anything I put my mind to. WWW Sources 1}Gender gaps on the Brain,Size of brain not determinate factor of intelligence. 2. 2}Excerpts From Brain Sex,The biological vs. The political brain. 3. 3}Are There Differences between the Brains of Males and Females?,Intellectual differences among the sexes. 4. 4}Left/Right Brain?,Left or right brained. 5. 5}La Difference,Who is the better sex? 6. 6}Traumatic Tests: Gender Bias and the SATs,SAT statistics.conclude that men are superior to women in intellect, right? Now I would not be a proud Bryn Mawr woman if I were to agree with this logic. However, I would not be "Bob Crantz" wrote in message ink.net... Bart: Most women are not spatially oriented as men are. I've worked extensively with women machinists, technicians, electrical and mechanical engineers. As a general rule, spatial things such as tying knots, running rigging, routing circuit boards, running pipes etc, women are at a handicap compared to men. It's not their fault, they are wired differently. Yes, the rare woman can perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception. Women excel at other things that men have a poor time doing. Learn to accept the differences, respect them and make the most of it. For the most part, sailing is man's world. Putting women into it will not ruin sailing, but could lead to the ruination of women. Bob Crantz "Bart Senior" wrote in message t... Jon, I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and 50% is about people and getting them to work together smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that. I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a solution. Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in. My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory. Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each other. Other instructors I know have reported similar problems. I've taught three women with identical problems to your student. These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success. These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent. One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20 minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory problems. Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable to hold a permanent position. At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn. My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory, or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly. Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever it is, it's a physical limitation. I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them, to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory problems I've found the people rush away after class like they are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues because it threatens their self esteem. I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest of the crew. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no place for such people. My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal person, but it would someone with memory problems. At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often get lost often while driving. Ask about that. Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings, and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical issue. Bart Jonathan Ganz wrote I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
Send her here to the east coast. We'll teach her.
We deal with people like that every day. S. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... : Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. : : I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get : it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple : Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. : Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It : seemed like everything was a struggle for her. : : I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on : the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost : zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though : the wind was very light on the lake. : : I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also : hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had : two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic : sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said : she wants some independence from her husband, her : own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, : and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know : why she's having problems like this... didn't know what : to do. : : She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline : the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets : totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take : 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her : through it and showing her countless times. : : Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? : : 10 NG pts for a workable solution. : : Jonathan : : -- : "j" ganz @@ : www.sailnow.com : : : |
Teaching question
Interesting, but not much chance or interest in that from either
of us. She's much, much older and as far as I can tell quite happy with her husband. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Vito" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:46:52 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz" wrote: Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She's been conditioned to fail. She probably feels guilt when she does anything right,.... She needs to do SOMETHING, and she knows it. I agree! I've known a number of people like that - often women from religeous homes. She may snap out of it with continued successes, even slow ones, and lots of praise, but she might not without professional help. Question is, as an instructor do you want to take on the responsibility, recognizing that helping her may lead to emotional involvment. If yes, never criticize HER. If you need to correct her say "That's incorrect" never "YOU are wrong". If not, do what you can but gently recommend behavior modification counseling (deprogramming) by telling her that she is holding herself back. |
Teaching question
Go away idiot.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bob Crantz" wrote in message ink.net... I would increase spending on her education. Results are in direct proportion to money spent. BC "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Teaching question
I was joking about the off-topic nature of course. :-)
Thanks for the insight. She seems to have a rather menial job (admitting clerk for a hospital), but that involves rote not memorization. She's been at it for 20+ years. Good suggestions. Thanks! -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bart Senior" wrote in message t... Jon, I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and 50% is about people and getting them to work together smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that. I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a solution. Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in. My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory. Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each other. Other instructors I know have reported similar problems. I've taught three women with identical problems to your student. These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success. These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent. One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20 minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory problems. Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable to hold a permanent position. At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn. My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory, or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly. Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever it is, it's a physical limitation. I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them, to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory problems I've found the people rush away after class like they are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues because it threatens their self esteem. I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest of the crew. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no place for such people. My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal person, but it would someone with memory problems. At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often get lost often while driving. Ask about that. Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings, and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical issue. Bart Jonathan Ganz wrote I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
That's what I've been doing. She insists that she "needs the practice."
I think I'm going to get her in a regular sailing class. She'll get some support from the other students, which may help. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "John Cairns" wrote in message ... Did you consider asking her, in the most polite fashion possible, how you might be able to help. Be honest with her, tell her what you're thinking, then go from there. John Cairns "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Teaching question
I got that also. As I mentioned in another post, she's
been in a fairly menial job for a long time. I think we'll keep at it for now. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com wrote in message ... On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:46:52 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz" wrote: Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan She's been conditioned to fail. She probably feels guilt when she does anything right, because she knows shes not supposed to be able to do anything. It will take a lot of patience, and positive reinforcement for her to overcome it. She probably has the same problems trying to do anything, not just sailing. Her sailing lessons are anything but a waste of money. She needs to do SOMETHING, and she knows it. BB |
Teaching question
Stop looking for miracles and start praising the little bitty achievements.
You guys have got her so afraid she's going to do something wrong that she's agonizing over making everything right. She might have some obsessive/compulsive tendencies, which would slow the learning process way down. Have you asked her directly why she is having problems? You are dealing with an adult here and not a kid...I'm sure she is picking up the bad vibes from all you guys...after a while, in the spirit of trying to be nice and patient, you're probably coming off as being patronizing. My first suggestion would be is that she needs to be taught by a woman sailor. You guys might reflect exactly why she has chosen an activity away from her husband. -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
the rare woman can
perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception Bull pucky....yes, women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is because those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger lives....there is no reason on earth why tying a knot or running rigging would be a difficult task for MOST women if shown how....yes, there are inherent genetic dispositions that are different for men and women, but these differences are not that far apart and certainly don't preclude some ability...blanket generalizations sometimes indicate a bigoted attitude.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
You're an idiot.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bob Crantz" wrote in message ink.net... Bart: Most women are not spatially oriented as men are. I've worked extensively with women machinists, technicians, electrical and mechanical engineers. As a general rule, spatial things such as tying knots, running rigging, routing circuit boards, running pipes etc, women are at a handicap compared to men. It's not their fault, they are wired differently. Yes, the rare woman can perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception. Women excel at other things that men have a poor time doing. Learn to accept the differences, respect them and make the most of it. For the most part, sailing is man's world. Putting women into it will not ruin sailing, but could lead to the ruination of women. Bob Crantz "Bart Senior" wrote in message t... Jon, I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and 50% is about people and getting them to work together smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that. I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a solution. Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in. My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory. Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each other. Other instructors I know have reported similar problems. I've taught three women with identical problems to your student. These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success. These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent. One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20 minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory problems. Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable to hold a permanent position. At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn. My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory, or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly. Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever it is, it's a physical limitation. I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them, to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory problems I've found the people rush away after class like they are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues because it threatens their self esteem. I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest of the crew. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no place for such people. My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal person, but it would someone with memory problems. At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often get lost often while driving. Ask about that. Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings, and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical issue. Bart Jonathan Ganz wrote I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
You're an idiot.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bob Crantz" wrote in message ink.net... Women have smaller brains than that of their male counterpart. Since the ability to think is partly determined by the size of the brain it is obvious to an accurate researcher if I were to ignore the differences between the male and female brain. The question to be posed is, with the knowledge of the function of the human brain, can a scientist accurately determine if the differences in the way males and females perform various tasks is a biological phenomena, or rather as a result of social persuasion? All kinds of research have shown that the bigger the brain, generally, the smarter the animal. (1) However, as Emily Dickinson might agree, it is not the size of the brain that counts, but rather what is contained within the brain. Human male brains are, on average, approximately 10% larger than that of the female, but this is because of men's larger body size: more muscle cells imply more neurons to control them. (3) If the size of the brain is not the determinate factor of the differences between the male and female brain what is? Of special interest to researchers of this subject was the amount of gray matter, the part of the brain that allows us to think. The researchers wanted to know if women have as much gray matter as men. (1) It would be logical to conclude that if there is less gray matter, the component of the brain associated with the thinking process, than obviously, biologically men and superior in intellect to women. However, as is the case with many biological researches, more questions arose than were answered. According to one psychology professor at the University of Pennsylvania, there is no difference in the amount of gray matter in men and women. To make up for the smaller brain size, women have 55.4% gray matter vs. 50.8% in men. (1) Thus disputing the hypothesis that the difference in amount of gray matter is the reason for the difference in the way men and woman perform various tasks. If this is an accurate conclusion, the question still remains, why are men more inclined to perform better on spatial, intuitive, nonverbal tasks, such as mathematics, while woman tend to excel at verbal, sorting, detail-oriented tasks such as English? (4) Some scientists believe that the answer to this question lies in the evolutionary development of the brain. Over the last couple of decades, proponents of evolutionary psychology have been piecing together a case that the mind is naturally sexed. Our male and female forebears faced different evolutionary pressures in their struggle to survive and reproduce in the Pleistocene grasslands, and as a result they have different mental aptitudes and even differently organized brains. (5) This would suggest that since men were the ones that hunted they are better equipped to analyze spatial-oriented tasks. At first this appears a logical conclusion. In order to hunt for food the male would have to be aware of how far the prey is. However, I have to question, if humans are simply animals, then why can this logical not be applied to all animals? In the jungle the lioness is the one that hunts, not the lion. Yet, although the lioness is the provider, and is capable of defending herself, since they travel in packs, the lion is considered the King of the jungle. I believe that it would be viewed as preposterous to suggest that we would have a Queen of the jungle instead of a King. The reason for this is not biological, but rather a social aspect. Recent decades have witnessed two contradictory processes: the development of scientific research into the differences between the sexes, and the political denial that such differences exist. A hundred years ago, the observation that men were different from women, in a whole range of aptitudes, skills, and abilities, would have been leaden truism, a statement of the yawning obvious. Such a remark, uttered today, would evoke very different reactions. Said by a man, it would suggest a certain social ineptitude, a naïveté in matters of sexual politics. A woman venturing such an opinion would be scorned as a traitor to her sex, betraying the hard-fought "victories" of recent decades as women have sought equality of status, opportunity and respect. (2) Imagine a Bryn Mawr woman saying that biologically women are inferior to men. This would be an affront to the feminist movement that our "politically correct" society has been forced to include. Yes, women tend to be more verbal; this has been supported by tests, which revealed that females speak twice as many words as the man, and has done so even before the age of two. (4) Yes, men tend to receive higher scores on logic-oriented tests; comparing the scores of SATs can support this. Women score significantly lower than men on the SAT. In 1994, the most recent information available, they had an average score of 881 (out of a possible 1600 points, 400 is the minimum), while men scored an average of 926 points, nearly 50 points higher. (6) Despite the information presented to show that there is a difference in the way the male and female brain operates, I still fail to see how any of the information presented proves that one sex is superior to that of another. There are several well-known female mathematicians and scientists. This fact disproves the idea that men are superior to women in logical tasks. Langston Hughes is a famous male poet, which would disprove the idea that females are superior to men linguistically. However, the addition of the word "generally" does make a difference. I would have to agree that generally there are intellectual tasks that men are better at than females. However, I am not convinced that this is a biological superiority, rather than social. Are women naturally more inclined to play with Barbie Dolls, or is the societal expectation to do this the cause. Is it the societal expectation for a man to use his wit to be the "bread winner" in the family, the real reason why male dancers are not as respected as a male scientist? What is biological predisposition, and societal demand? So far, research has only been able to point out the aesthetic differences of the male and female brain, and to speculate what these differences mean in terms of the way in which the two sexes perform various tasks. Therefore I must still maintain the phrase that was instilled in me by my father; I am capable of doing anything I put my mind to. WWW Sources 1}Gender gaps on the Brain,Size of brain not determinate factor of intelligence. 2. 2}Excerpts From Brain Sex,The biological vs. The political brain. 3. 3}Are There Differences between the Brains of Males and Females?,Intellectual differences among the sexes. 4. 4}Left/Right Brain?,Left or right brained. 5. 5}La Difference,Who is the better sex? 6. 6}Traumatic Tests: Gender Bias and the SATs,SAT statistics.conclude that men are superior to women in intellect, right? Now I would not be a proud Bryn Mawr woman if I were to agree with this logic. However, I would not be "Bob Crantz" wrote in message ink.net... Bart: Most women are not spatially oriented as men are. I've worked extensively with women machinists, technicians, electrical and mechanical engineers. As a general rule, spatial things such as tying knots, running rigging, routing circuit boards, running pipes etc, women are at a handicap compared to men. It's not their fault, they are wired differently. Yes, the rare woman can perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception. Women excel at other things that men have a poor time doing. Learn to accept the differences, respect them and make the most of it. For the most part, sailing is man's world. Putting women into it will not ruin sailing, but could lead to the ruination of women. Bob Crantz "Bart Senior" wrote in message t... Jon, I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and 50% is about people and getting them to work together smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that. I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a solution. Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in. My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory. Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each other. Other instructors I know have reported similar problems. I've taught three women with identical problems to your student. These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success. These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent. One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20 minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory problems. Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable to hold a permanent position. At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn. My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory, or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly. Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever it is, it's a physical limitation. I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them, to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory problems I've found the people rush away after class like they are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues because it threatens their self esteem. I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest of the crew. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no place for such people. My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal person, but it would someone with memory problems. At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often get lost often while driving. Ask about that. Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings, and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical issue. Bart Jonathan Ganz wrote I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
Gee that's all I've been doing...praising, praising....
I would be happy to hand her off to a woman teacher, but there are none associated with this program yet. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "katysails" wrote in message ... Stop looking for miracles and start praising the little bitty achievements. You guys have got her so afraid she's going to do something wrong that she's agonizing over making everything right. She might have some obsessive/compulsive tendencies, which would slow the learning process way down. Have you asked her directly why she is having problems? You are dealing with an adult here and not a kid...I'm sure she is picking up the bad vibes from all you guys...after a while, in the spirit of trying to be nice and patient, you're probably coming off as being patronizing. My first suggestion would be is that she needs to be taught by a woman sailor. You guys might reflect exactly why she has chosen an activity away from her husband. -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
I would be happy to hand her off to a woman teacher, but
there are none associated with this program yet. Send her to Womanship or refer her to the NWSA.....after all, you are interested in her well-being and what's best for her and not just what money she brings into your program, hmmm? -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... I was joking about the off-topic nature of course. :-) Thanks for the insight. She seems to have a rather menial job (admitting clerk for a hospital), Whew! At least she's not a burger flipper. SV |
Teaching question
Many people have various "learning disabilities", and a high percentage
of them who've reached adulthood, know and understand what they are and what works best for them so they can "work" through the problem. You might ask this woman if there is a particular way that you could show/explain things that she has found helps her to grasp the concept. It also may be as simple as she's never been seriously involved with any kind of mechanical process and even the basic function of knots and rigging is new to her |
Teaching question
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. 2 hours is a bit long... Has she rigged that boat before? If so you need to pull another boat up next to her and challenge her to a rigging race. Explain to her that you think it she has a problem and you want to find out her weakness. A race is a good way to see what she does not understand. Stop the race and address the issues as they arise. You do have 2 boats right? If not do it with a stop watch. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. Why? is she afraid the boat will tip over. If so you need to go ahead and filp it over. Better yet have her flip it over. Offer her a free day if she can flip it on a light wind day without shifting ballast. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. Then there is no question....if you are indeed and instructor you keep teaching as long as she is willing to try. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. Shouldent you address all these issues up front with her? Perhaps hand her a report card, and teach her how to improve her grades! She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Homework. Is that so important? Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? I've had many, they were called Deckhands. As long as they keep coming back saying thats what they want to do, and they try hard, and dont give up you stick with em. If they are totally lost and have no chance of ever making it no matter what ............you got to let em know. They might beg for another chance then you have to set a standard and tell them if they can not meet the standard they must leave. How high you set your standards is up to you. She sounds to me like she honestly wants to keep going at it and she keeps trying. Thats good enough for me, as long as she is not a danger to herself or anyone else. Joe 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
There's no such program within an hour or two of where she lives. I'm not
teaching her on the bay. It's in a lake in the middle of California. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "katysails" wrote in message ... I would be happy to hand her off to a woman teacher, but there are none associated with this program yet. Send her to Womanship or refer her to the NWSA.....after all, you are interested in her well-being and what's best for her and not just what money she brings into your program, hmmm? -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
No. This was her first time. I can do it in 15 minutes. Most of
the students can do it in 1/2 hour at their second try. I'm thinking that the best approach is to get her in with other students. They tend to help each other. We do have two boats. The next class I teach will have four in each. Can't tip these without raising the centerboard. It's heavy enough to sink if it goes over. We use the Holder 14 for this, and she's already taken that class, so she got some experience capsizing. That can't be it. I'm going to keep trying. At least until her money runs out. :-) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Joe" wrote in message om... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. 2 hours is a bit long... Has she rigged that boat before? If so you need to pull another boat up next to her and challenge her to a rigging race. Explain to her that you think it she has a problem and you want to find out her weakness. A race is a good way to see what she does not understand. Stop the race and address the issues as they arise. You do have 2 boats right? If not do it with a stop watch. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. Why? is she afraid the boat will tip over. If so you need to go ahead and filp it over. Better yet have her flip it over. Offer her a free day if she can flip it on a light wind day without shifting ballast. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. Then there is no question....if you are indeed and instructor you keep teaching as long as she is willing to try. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. Shouldent you address all these issues up front with her? Perhaps hand her a report card, and teach her how to improve her grades! She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Homework. Is that so important? Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? I've had many, they were called Deckhands. As long as they keep coming back saying thats what they want to do, and they try hard, and dont give up you stick with em. If they are totally lost and have no chance of ever making it no matter what ...........you got to let em know. They might beg for another chance then you have to set a standard and tell them if they can not meet the standard they must leave. How high you set your standards is up to you. She sounds to me like she honestly wants to keep going at it and she keeps trying. Thats good enough for me, as long as she is not a danger to herself or anyone else. Joe 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
It's obvious, Jon. She's got the hots for you. In her own demented little
mind, she looks up to you and wants your attention. Just tell her you're gay and that there's no chance for her. Dr. Scott "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... No. This was her first time. I can do it in 15 minutes. Most of the students can do it in 1/2 hour at their second try. I'm thinking that the best approach is to get her in with other students. They tend to help each other. We do have two boats. The next class I teach will have four in each. Can't tip these without raising the centerboard. It's heavy enough to sink if it goes over. We use the Holder 14 for this, and she's already taken that class, so she got some experience capsizing. That can't be it. I'm going to keep trying. At least until her money runs out. :-) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Joe" wrote in message om... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. 2 hours is a bit long... Has she rigged that boat before? If so you need to pull another boat up next to her and challenge her to a rigging race. Explain to her that you think it she has a problem and you want to find out her weakness. A race is a good way to see what she does not understand. Stop the race and address the issues as they arise. You do have 2 boats right? If not do it with a stop watch. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. Why? is she afraid the boat will tip over. If so you need to go ahead and filp it over. Better yet have her flip it over. Offer her a free day if she can flip it on a light wind day without shifting ballast. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. Then there is no question....if you are indeed and instructor you keep teaching as long as she is willing to try. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. Shouldent you address all these issues up front with her? Perhaps hand her a report card, and teach her how to improve her grades! She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Homework. Is that so important? Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? I've had many, they were called Deckhands. As long as they keep coming back saying thats what they want to do, and they try hard, and dont give up you stick with em. If they are totally lost and have no chance of ever making it no matter what ...........you got to let em know. They might beg for another chance then you have to set a standard and tell them if they can not meet the standard they must leave. How high you set your standards is up to you. She sounds to me like she honestly wants to keep going at it and she keeps trying. Thats good enough for me, as long as she is not a danger to herself or anyone else. Joe 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
I'm not dealing in blanket generalizations as you are in several of your
statements ("women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is because those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger lives...."), I'm dealing with scientific measurement (brain size) and the results of numerous scientific studies (behavorial science) and I even go far enough to claim what I postulate as not being a blanket generalization (I acknowledge that some women can perform exceptionally in male-wired tasks). Why is it that women always seek something to complain about rather than accept things at face value? BC "katysails" wrote in message ... the rare woman can perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception Bull pucky....yes, women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is because those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger lives....there is no reason on earth why tying a knot or running rigging would be a difficult task for MOST women if shown how....yes, there are inherent genetic dispositions that are different for men and women, but these differences are not that far apart and certainly don't preclude some ability...blanket generalizations sometimes indicate a bigoted attitude.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
The problems I noticed were common to men and women
albeit they seems more prevalent in women. Bob Crantz wrote Most women are not spatially oriented as men are. snip "Bart Senior" wrote I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and 50% is about people and getting them to work together smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that. I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a solution. Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in. My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory. Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each other. Other instructors I know have reported similar problems. I've taught three women with identical problems to your student. These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success. These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent. One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20 minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory problems. Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable to hold a permanent position. At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn. My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory, or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly. Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever it is, it's a physical limitation. I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them, to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory problems I've found the people rush away after class like they are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues because it threatens their self esteem. I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest of the crew. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no place for such people. My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal person, but it would someone with memory problems. At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often get lost often while driving. Ask about that. Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings, and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical issue. Bart Jonathan Ganz wrote I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
Let me know what you find out about her
memory retention. Jonathan Ganz wrote Thanks for the insight. She seems to have a rather menial job (admitting clerk for a hospital), but that involves rote not memorization. She's been at it for 20+ years. "Bart Senior" wrote I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a solution. Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in. My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory. Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each other. Other instructors I know have reported similar problems. I've taught three women with identical problems to your student. These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success. These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent. One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20 minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory problems. Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable to hold a permanent position. At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn. My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory, or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly. Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever it is, it's a physical limitation. I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them, to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory problems I've found the people rush away after class like they are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues because it threatens their self esteem. I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest of the crew. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no place for such people. My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal person, but it would someone with memory problems. At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often get lost often while driving. Ask about that. Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings, and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical issue. Jonathan Ganz wrote I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? |
Teaching question
katy
Don't assume men instructors are not senstive to these things. The longer you teach the better you get at it. Some students don't respond to even the best instruction. Such people are a danger to themselves and others. katysails wrote Stop looking for miracles and start praising the little bitty achievements. You guys have got her so afraid she's going to do something wrong that she's agonizing over making everything right. She might have some |
Teaching question
blanket generalizations as you are in several of your
statements ("women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is because those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger lives....") That is not a generalization, that is a fact, supported by numerous educational studies regarding the emphasis on teaching math in secondary grades...you look them up...they're there... Why is it that women always seek something to complain about rather than accept things at face value? I;I'm not complaining...I'm correcting your erroneous viewpoint...I take most thing s at face value... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
Don't assume men instructors are not sensitive to these things.
The longer you teach the better you get at it. Some students don't respond to even the best instruction. Such people are a danger to themselves and others. I'm not assuming that at all...Job's scenario, though, triggered some thoughts that that might be the problem....I think it has a lot more to do with personality types than gender in a lot of cases. I personally do not learn well from touchy-feely, oh I understand, smiley types but do much better with the direct, this is the way it is approach. Some people can't tolerate that. Some women (and men) mind being sworn at...they take it personally rather than as a character trait of the person swearing. It's all in how you've been raised and how you've learned to learn. -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
Katy, you might want to consider ignoring this particular sockpuppet.
Seems like he's pushing your buttons, and it's early. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "katysails" wrote in message ... blanket generalizations as you are in several of your statements ("women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is because those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger lives....") That is not a generalization, that is a fact, supported by numerous educational studies regarding the emphasis on teaching math in secondary grades...you look them up...they're there... Why is it that women always seek something to complain about rather than accept things at face value? I;I'm not complaining...I'm correcting your erroneous viewpoint...I take most thing s at face value... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
I don't think she's making that assumption, but I do think that
many male instructors don't communicate as well with women students as they do with male students. I've seen this happen over and over. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bart Senior" wrote in message et... katy Don't assume men instructors are not senstive to these things. The longer you teach the better you get at it. Some students don't respond to even the best instruction. Such people are a danger to themselves and others. katysails wrote Stop looking for miracles and start praising the little bitty achievements. You guys have got her so afraid she's going to do something wrong that she's agonizing over making everything right. She might have some |
Teaching question
How about if I tell her you're gay, but that you're accepting of
straight women. Do you think that'll work? I wouldn't want to lie to her. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... It's obvious, Jon. She's got the hots for you. In her own demented little mind, she looks up to you and wants your attention. Just tell her you're gay and that there's no chance for her. Dr. Scott "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... No. This was her first time. I can do it in 15 minutes. Most of the students can do it in 1/2 hour at their second try. I'm thinking that the best approach is to get her in with other students. They tend to help each other. We do have two boats. The next class I teach will have four in each. Can't tip these without raising the centerboard. It's heavy enough to sink if it goes over. We use the Holder 14 for this, and she's already taken that class, so she got some experience capsizing. That can't be it. I'm going to keep trying. At least until her money runs out. :-) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Joe" wrote in message om... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry. I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it. Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It seemed like everything was a struggle for her. 2 hours is a bit long... Has she rigged that boat before? If so you need to pull another boat up next to her and challenge her to a rigging race. Explain to her that you think it she has a problem and you want to find out her weakness. A race is a good way to see what she does not understand. Stop the race and address the issues as they arise. You do have 2 boats right? If not do it with a stop watch. I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though the wind was very light on the lake. Why? is she afraid the boat will tip over. If so you need to go ahead and filp it over. Better yet have her flip it over. Offer her a free day if she can flip it on a light wind day without shifting ballast. I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said she wants some independence from her husband, her own hobby, etc. Then there is no question....if you are indeed and instructor you keep teaching as long as she is willing to try. I talked to one of the other instructors, and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know why she's having problems like this... didn't know what to do. Shouldent you address all these issues up front with her? Perhaps hand her a report card, and teach her how to improve her grades! She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take 3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her through it and showing her countless times. Homework. Is that so important? Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do? I've had many, they were called Deckhands. As long as they keep coming back saying thats what they want to do, and they try hard, and dont give up you stick with em. If they are totally lost and have no chance of ever making it no matter what ...........you got to let em know. They might beg for another chance then you have to set a standard and tell them if they can not meet the standard they must leave. How high you set your standards is up to you. She sounds to me like she honestly wants to keep going at it and she keeps trying. Thats good enough for me, as long as she is not a danger to herself or anyone else. Joe 10 NG pts for a workable solution. Jonathan |
Teaching question
I disagree with you katy,
This may not be politically correct, but political correctness has no place on a boat where lives are at stake. One cannot correct a problem without recognizing what it is first. The genetic pre-disposition beween males and females is radically different--as in "way far" apart. You say so yourself, katy, every day... "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein If women (girls) lag behind men, it has nothing to do with what is stressed when they are young. I have an 12 year old niece. It doesn't matter what I stress is important. I've tried everything with her in the last few years. She does what she pleases and has closed her mind to me. It is plain that learning is less important to girls, while boys pay attention and learn. Young girls are emotional and spend all their time thinking about boys, cloths, getting married, and children. During that time boys are training for leadership and developing confidence building skills. It is no wonder that boys think girls are stupid when they see that the girls don't pay attention and rarely have career goals when they are young. The only effective means of teaching a girl at a young age might be a cattle prod. I doubt anything else would get her attention. Girls focus on getting a boy to the excusion of all else. Once they get older and marry, their outlook changes. Parents ask children what they want to do with their lives. Boys answer honestly. Girls make up a bull**** story and rarely take steps in that direction. All that is forgotten after a while or it changes into some new goal when they find out how much work is involved. From the other perspective, girls are thinking ahead about having families long before boys do. It is fortunate for the human race that girls do think about boys, marriage, and children, because most boys do not. It is equally fortunate that boys are more logical and good at doing things, or else we'd still be living in caves. This orientation does preclude some ability, or else we'd see comparable skill levels per capita. Don't go blaming men for not teaching women, when in fact men try quite hard to do so, but often do not find receptive minds. Recently I tried to teach a young lady of 19. She would acknowledge I was right about a topic--she was bing pushed around by some boys, but steadfastly refused to confront them. Close-mindedness is a common trait in females. I could give you a hundred examples. At the same time females are more easy going and less likely to remain angry after a conflict. Every trait has a positve and negative aspect. The negative aspect are more obvious, and clues pointing to the important positive aspects. Mature married women are excellent sailing students and in general they are better students than the men. Most married women pay closer attention, and actually study the topic of sailing, more so than their husbands who tend to play it by ear. I find married women are far better at knots than men who rarely open a book or practice at home. I think this is because these women have what they want--a man, and want to keep him alive, so their interest in sailing has a serious side. If a grown woman can't learn how to tie a knot, I submit it may be one of three things: 1 A serious self-esteem problem. 2. A lifetime dependence on men which leads to a total lack of decision making ability, with an associated "helper" aspect. 3. A mental problem with either memory, logic, or both which makes complex analysis difficult or impossible. Sailing would be beneficial for women in the first two categories but it is unlikely they will be able to perform capably as a skipper in an emergency situation. The highest competence level in most skills leadership must be developed. My experience is women generally freak-out in an emergency, perhaps to let the man know he "has" to take charge. While women make fabulous as crew, should we then force leadership on them? Or should instructors encourage them to be good crew instead, and skippers when they have the ability? Bart katysails wrote the rare woman can perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception Bull pucky....yes, women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is because those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger lives....there is no reason on earth why tying a knot or running rigging would be a difficult task for MOST women if shown how....yes, there are inherent genetic dispositions that are different for men and women, but these differences are not that far apart and certainly don't preclude some ability...blanket generalizations sometimes indicate a bigoted attitude.... |
Teaching question
Bart, you are one sad, poor man....
It is plain that learning is less important to girls, while boys pay attention and learn. Bull**** Young girls are emotional and spend all their time thinking about boys, cloths, getting married, and children. Bull**** girls don't pay attention and rarely have career goals when they are young. more bull**** ....and the rest is just more and more of the same crap...... You hang around with very strange women if that's the impression you have of them....the women I know are directed, goal oriented people with carefully planned out careers...they have climbed up the ladder to the positions they hold... Unfortunately, Heinlein's little quip isn't really a truism....Many women do not do as they please...they try to please men....they have been taught culturally that that is the way to succeed...those are the women you speak of...women who have been trained by men to act that way....Stepford Women....So don't complain about the monsters that you have made...(for examples, just read some of Horvath's posts regarding women...) -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
Teaching question
I would say that of the kids we teach, the girls
tend to learn more quickly, but do have a tendency to be less interested in racing. S. "katysails" wrote in message ... : Bart, you are one sad, poor man.... : : It is plain : that learning is less important to girls, while boys pay : attention and learn. : : Bull**** : : Young girls are emotional and spend all their time thinking : about boys, cloths, getting married, and children. : : Bull**** : : girls don't pay attention and rarely : have career goals when they are young. : : more bull**** : : ...and the rest is just more and more of the same crap...... : : You hang around with very strange women if that's the impression you have of : them....the women I know are directed, goal oriented people with carefully : planned out careers...they have climbed up the ladder to the positions they : hold... : : Unfortunately, Heinlein's little quip isn't really a truism....Many women do : not do as they please...they try to please men....they have been taught : culturally that that is the way to succeed...those are the women you speak : of...women who have been trained by men to act that way....Stepford : Women....So don't complain about the monsters that you have made...(for : examples, just read some of Horvath's posts regarding women...) : : : : : -- : katysails : s/v Chanteuse : Kirie Elite 32 : http://katysails.tripod.com : : "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax : and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein : : : : --- : Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. : Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). : Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 : : |
Teaching question
I don't find any gender based differences in the learning curves of the kids
that sail on Overproof. They all seem to be eager to learn and enjoy the responsibilities that come with knowledge gained. Some kids are quicker studies in some aspects but it generally levels itself out. I can't say I have seen much difference between adult men and women in regards to learning to sail either... except maybe that some are quicker studies than others. Nothing gender based though. I've never had a problem aboard since I never raise my voice to crew unless it's due to prevention of a dangerous situation... and never in anger. I always explain things and expect input from the crew at all times. CM "Pony Express" wrote in message k.net... | I would say that of the kids we teach, the girls | tend to learn more quickly, but do have a tendency | to be less interested in racing. | S. | | "katysails" wrote in | message ... | : Bart, you are one sad, poor man.... | : | : It is plain | : that learning is less important to girls, while | boys pay | : attention and learn. | : | : Bull**** | : | : Young girls are emotional and spend all their | time thinking | : about boys, cloths, getting married, and | children. | : | : Bull**** | : | : girls don't pay attention and rarely | : have career goals when they are young. | : | : more bull**** | : | : ...and the rest is just more and more of the | same crap...... | : | : You hang around with very strange women if | that's the impression you have of | : them....the women I know are directed, goal | oriented people with carefully | : planned out careers...they have climbed up the | ladder to the positions they | : hold... | : | : Unfortunately, Heinlein's little quip isn't | really a truism....Many women do | : not do as they please...they try to please | men....they have been taught | : culturally that that is the way to | succeed...those are the women you speak | : of...women who have been trained by men to act | that way....Stepford | : Women....So don't complain about the monsters | that you have made...(for | : examples, just read some of Horvath's posts | regarding women...) | : | : | : | : | : -- | : katysails | : s/v Chanteuse | : Kirie Elite 32 | : http://katysails.tripod.com | : | : "Women and cats will do as they please, and | men and dogs should relax | : and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein | : | : | : | : --- | : Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. | : Checked by AVG anti-virus system | (http://www.grisoft.com). | : Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release | Date: 6/27/2004 | : | : | |
Teaching question
The only major difference I've seen is that men tend to believe that
they can do things with muscle power that should be done with leverage or a winch. Whereas women understand that they don't have the upper body physical strength to do something, so they tend to use a winch, etc. if they're so instructed. Men tend to ignore this the first few times. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... I don't find any gender based differences in the learning curves of the kids that sail on Overproof. They all seem to be eager to learn and enjoy the responsibilities that come with knowledge gained. Some kids are quicker studies in some aspects but it generally levels itself out. I can't say I have seen much difference between adult men and women in regards to learning to sail either... except maybe that some are quicker studies than others. Nothing gender based though. I've never had a problem aboard since I never raise my voice to crew unless it's due to prevention of a dangerous situation... and never in anger. I always explain things and expect input from the crew at all times. CM "Pony Express" wrote in message k.net... | I would say that of the kids we teach, the girls | tend to learn more quickly, but do have a tendency | to be less interested in racing. | S. | | "katysails" wrote in | message ... | : Bart, you are one sad, poor man.... | : | : It is plain | : that learning is less important to girls, while | boys pay | : attention and learn. | : | : Bull**** | : | : Young girls are emotional and spend all their | time thinking | : about boys, cloths, getting married, and | children. | : | : Bull**** | : | : girls don't pay attention and rarely | : have career goals when they are young. | : | : more bull**** | : | : ...and the rest is just more and more of the | same crap...... | : | : You hang around with very strange women if | that's the impression you have of | : them....the women I know are directed, goal | oriented people with carefully | : planned out careers...they have climbed up the | ladder to the positions they | : hold... | : | : Unfortunately, Heinlein's little quip isn't | really a truism....Many women do | : not do as they please...they try to please | men....they have been taught | : culturally that that is the way to | succeed...those are the women you speak | : of...women who have been trained by men to act | that way....Stepford | : Women....So don't complain about the monsters | that you have made...(for | : examples, just read some of Horvath's posts | regarding women...) | : | : | : | : | : -- | : katysails | : s/v Chanteuse | : Kirie Elite 32 | : http://katysails.tripod.com | : | : "Women and cats will do as they please, and | men and dogs should relax | : and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein | : | : | : | : --- | : Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. | : Checked by AVG anti-virus system | (http://www.grisoft.com). | : Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release | Date: 6/27/2004 | : | : | |
Teaching question
katysails wrote Bart, you are one sad, poor man.... It is plain that learning is less important to girls, while boys pay attention and learn. Bull**** Think back to when you were a teenager katy. I've been able to get boys to study when they were not focused, but girls give up quit, and run away to talk with their girl friends. Send them to their room and they are on the phone or in a chat room. Disconnecting the phone and internet just made them more ingenious at sneaking out, using borrowed cell phones, or pouring on the tears until someone else gives in to them. Young girls are emotional and spend all their time thinking about boys, cloths, getting married, and children. Bull**** This is what teenage girls tell me. I've seen it. It is not bull**** in the majority of the cases. . girls don't pay attention and rarely have career goals when they are young. more bull**** That my impression too. When I ask them what their career goals are they often chose lofty goals, and take no steps in that directions. When I try to mentor them and tell them what the need to do to work towards that goals they ignore they alwasy lose interest. They like the idea of having a lofty goal, but don't care to put much effort into persuing it--until they get older. ...and the rest is just more and more of the same crap...... You hang around with very strange women if that's the impression you have of them....the women I know are directed, goal oriented people with carefully planned out careers...they have climbed up the ladder to the positions they hold... I have to agree with you. Many of the women I meet are very strange. It is clear to me that age is the key factor in determining the maturity of a woman. Often it is not until around age 30-40 that they begin to rely on their brains instead of their bodies Many women tend to lack trust, be anxious, and overreact. The nicest type of woman is the helper type. They are real team players as long as they get what they want. These can be generous, caring and nurturing and display enormous empathy. In most cases women have agendas that are visible to men, but invisible to themselves. Often they are manipulative--a skill perfected in childhood they rarely grow out of. Often they don't comprehend how transparent their games are, because men give them room to hang themselves. Many times women have fear of abandonment issues because of their parents broken marriages. I've met a number of women who continually tested me, by acting crazy, just to see if I'll leave them. Passing the test only means a new harder test in a couple of weeks--because they are convinced men always leave their women. Finally it reaches a point where you have the choice of physical abuse or leaving--I chose the latter. Or if you spot this characteristic early you can leave the relationship before being tortured too long. These sorts of women like underdog causes but winning is not important, it is the struggle they enjoy. Many women I meet can't complete things. They start something take it 90% of the way and then stop and move on to something else. A man can tell a woman straight out what is important to him and what is not, and women will most often agree with everything he says, but in reality ignore it, and work towards changing his views to hers. They figure that "Love" will change his mind, or hope to get married and force the change. mind later. The most common tpe of woman I meet is the impulsivesocialite sophisticate. Underneath that is a woman who is extremely selfish and ready to drop her friends and plans if something else more engaging comes also. Unfortunately, Heinlein's little quip isn't really a truism....Many women do not do as they please...they try to please men....they have been taught culturally that that is the way to succeed...those are the women you speak of...women who have been trained by men to act that way....Stepford Women....So don't complain about the monsters that you have made...(for examples, just read some of Horvath's posts regarding women...) That is exactly my point. When they do as they please they are focused on boys. Meanwhile the boys aren't interested at that age. -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/2004 |
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