Many people have various "learning disabilities", and a high percentage
of them who've reached adulthood, know and understand what they are and
what works best for them so they can "work" through the problem.
You might ask this woman if there is a particular way that you could
show/explain things that she has found helps her to grasp the concept.
It also may be as simple as she's never been seriously involved with any
kind of mechanical process and even the basic function of knots and
rigging is new to her

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry.

I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

2 hours is a bit long... Has she rigged that boat before?

If so you need to pull another boat up next to her and challenge her
to a rigging race. Explain to her that you think it she has a problem
and you want to find out her weakness. A race is a good way to see
what she does not understand. Stop the race and address the issues as
they arise. You do have 2 boats right? If not do it with a stop watch.


I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

Why? is she afraid the boat will tip over. If so you need to go ahead
and filp it over. Better yet have her flip it over. Offer her a free
day if she can flip it on a light wind day without shifting ballast.




I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc.

Then there is no question....if you are indeed and instructor you
keep teaching as long as she is willing to try.

I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

Shouldent you address all these issues up front with her?
Perhaps hand her a report card, and teach her how to improve her
grades!


She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Homework. Is that so important?

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

I've had many, they were called Deckhands.

As long as they keep coming back saying thats what they want to do,
and they try hard, and dont give up you stick with em.

If they are totally lost and have no chance of ever making it no
matter what
............you got to let em know.

They might beg for another chance then you have to set a standard and
tell them if they can not meet the standard they must leave.

How high you set your standards is up to you.

She sounds to me like she honestly wants to keep going at it and she
keeps trying. Thats good enough for me, as long as she is not a danger
to herself or anyone else.

Joe



10 NG pts for a workable solution.

Jonathan

There's no such program within an hour or two of where she lives. I'm not
teaching her on the bay. It's in a lake in the middle of California.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katysails" wrote in message
...
I would be happy to hand her off to a woman teacher, but
there are none associated with this program yet.

Send her to Womanship or refer her to the NWSA.....after all, you are
interested in her well-being and what's best for her and not just what
money
she brings into your program, hmmm?

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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No. This was her first time. I can do it in 15 minutes. Most of
the students can do it in 1/2 hour at their second try. I'm thinking
that the best approach is to get her in with other students. They
tend to help each other.

We do have two boats. The next class I teach will have four
in each.

Can't tip these without raising the centerboard. It's heavy
enough to sink if it goes over. We use the Holder 14 for
this, and she's already taken that class, so she got some
experience capsizing. That can't be it.

I'm going to keep trying. At least until her money runs out. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry.

I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

2 hours is a bit long... Has she rigged that boat before?

If so you need to pull another boat up next to her and challenge her
to a rigging race. Explain to her that you think it she has a problem
and you want to find out her weakness. A race is a good way to see
what she does not understand. Stop the race and address the issues as
they arise. You do have 2 boats right? If not do it with a stop watch.


I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

Why? is she afraid the boat will tip over. If so you need to go ahead
and filp it over. Better yet have her flip it over. Offer her a free
day if she can flip it on a light wind day without shifting ballast.




I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc.

Then there is no question....if you are indeed and instructor you
keep teaching as long as she is willing to try.

I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

Shouldent you address all these issues up front with her?
Perhaps hand her a report card, and teach her how to improve her
grades!


She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Homework. Is that so important?

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

I've had many, they were called Deckhands.

As long as they keep coming back saying thats what they want to do,
and they try hard, and dont give up you stick with em.

If they are totally lost and have no chance of ever making it no
matter what
...........you got to let em know.

They might beg for another chance then you have to set a standard and
tell them if they can not meet the standard they must leave.

How high you set your standards is up to you.

She sounds to me like she honestly wants to keep going at it and she
keeps trying. Thats good enough for me, as long as she is not a danger
to herself or anyone else.

Joe



10 NG pts for a workable solution.

Jonathan

It's obvious, Jon. She's got the hots for you. In her own demented little
mind, she looks up to you and wants your attention. Just tell her you're gay
and that there's no chance for her.

Dr. Scott

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
No. This was her first time. I can do it in 15 minutes. Most of
the students can do it in 1/2 hour at their second try. I'm thinking
that the best approach is to get her in with other students. They
tend to help each other.

We do have two boats. The next class I teach will have four
in each.

Can't tip these without raising the centerboard. It's heavy
enough to sink if it goes over. We use the Holder 14 for
this, and she's already taken that class, so she got some
experience capsizing. That can't be it.

I'm going to keep trying. At least until her money runs out. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry.

I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

2 hours is a bit long... Has she rigged that boat before?

If so you need to pull another boat up next to her and challenge her
to a rigging race. Explain to her that you think it she has a problem
and you want to find out her weakness. A race is a good way to see
what she does not understand. Stop the race and address the issues as
they arise. You do have 2 boats right? If not do it with a stop watch.


I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

Why? is she afraid the boat will tip over. If so you need to go ahead
and filp it over. Better yet have her flip it over. Offer her a free
day if she can flip it on a light wind day without shifting ballast.




I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc.

Then there is no question....if you are indeed and instructor you
keep teaching as long as she is willing to try.

I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

Shouldent you address all these issues up front with her?
Perhaps hand her a report card, and teach her how to improve her
grades!


She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Homework. Is that so important?

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

I've had many, they were called Deckhands.

As long as they keep coming back saying thats what they want to do,
and they try hard, and dont give up you stick with em.

If they are totally lost and have no chance of ever making it no
matter what
...........you got to let em know.

They might beg for another chance then you have to set a standard and
tell them if they can not meet the standard they must leave.

How high you set your standards is up to you.

She sounds to me like she honestly wants to keep going at it and she
keeps trying. Thats good enough for me, as long as she is not a danger
to herself or anyone else.

Joe



10 NG pts for a workable solution.

Jonathan

I'm not dealing in blanket generalizations as you are in several of your
statements ("women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is because
those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger
lives...."), I'm dealing with scientific measurement (brain size) and the
results of numerous scientific studies (behavorial science) and I even go
far enough to claim what I postulate as not being a blanket generalization
(I acknowledge that some women can perform exceptionally in male-wired
tasks).
Why is it that women always seek something to complain about rather than
accept things at face value?

BC


"katysails" wrote in message
...
the rare woman can
perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception

Bull pucky....yes, women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is
because
those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger
lives....there is no reason on earth why tying a knot or running rigging
would be a difficult task for MOST women if shown how....yes, there are
inherent genetic dispositions that are different for men and women, but
these differences are not that far apart and certainly don't preclude some
ability...blanket generalizations sometimes indicate a bigoted
attitude....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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The problems I noticed were common to men and women
albeit they seems more prevalent in women.

Bob Crantz wrote

Most women are not spatially oriented as men are.

snip

"Bart Senior" wrote

I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and
50% is about people and getting them to work together
smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that.

I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a
solution.

Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who
at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which
offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought
they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in.
My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or
consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory.
Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each
other.

Other instructors I know have reported similar problems.

I've taught three women with identical problems to your student.
These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed
they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just
minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success.

These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent.
One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and
tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had
difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to
tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20
minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying
seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory
problems.

Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This
was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was
ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and
worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems
that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable
to hold a permanent position.

At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention
deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay
focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn.

My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is
this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they
can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory,
or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly.
Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever
it is, it's a physical limitation.

I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them,
to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory
problems I've found the people rush away after class like they
are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues
because it threatens their self esteem.

I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was
unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest
of the crew.

I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot
develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger
their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no
place for such people.

My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated
to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say
other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal
person, but it would someone with memory problems.

At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked
her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not
be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often
get lost often while driving. Ask about that.

Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from
sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings,
and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical
issue.

Bart


Jonathan Ganz wrote
I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

10 NG pts for a workable solution.

Jonathan

Let me know what you find out about her
memory retention.

Jonathan Ganz wrote

Thanks for the insight. She seems to have a rather
menial job (admitting clerk for a hospital), but that
involves rote not memorization. She's been at it
for 20+ years.

"Bart Senior" wrote

I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a
solution.

Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who
at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which
offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought
they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in.
My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or
consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory.
Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each
other.

Other instructors I know have reported similar problems.

I've taught three women with identical problems to your student.
These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed
they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just
minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success.

These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent.
One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and
tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had
difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to
tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20
minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying
seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory
problems.

Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This
was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was
ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and
worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems
that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable
to hold a permanent position.

At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention
deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay
focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn.

My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is
this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they
can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory,
or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly.
Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever
it is, it's a physical limitation.

I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them,
to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory
problems I've found the people rush away after class like they
are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues
because it threatens their self esteem.

I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was
unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest
of the crew.

I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot
develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger
their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no
place for such people.

My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated
to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say
other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal
person, but it would someone with memory problems.

At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked
her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not
be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often
get lost often while driving. Ask about that.

Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from
sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings,
and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical
issue.

Jonathan Ganz wrote
I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

katy

Don't assume men instructors are not senstive to these things.
The longer you teach the better you get at it. Some students
don't respond to even the best instruction. Such people are
a danger to themselves and others.

katysails wrote
Stop looking for miracles and start praising the little bitty
achievements.
You guys have got her so afraid she's going to do something wrong that
she's
agonizing over making everything right. She might have some

blanket generalizations as you are in several of your
statements ("women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is because
those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger
lives....")

That is not a generalization, that is a fact, supported by numerous
educational studies regarding the emphasis on teaching math in secondary
grades...you look them up...they're there...

Why is it that women always seek something to complain about rather than
accept things at face value?

I;I'm not complaining...I'm correcting your erroneous viewpoint...I take
most thing s at face value...

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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