I was joking about the off-topic nature of course. :-)

Thanks for the insight. She seems to have a rather
menial job (admitting clerk for a hospital), but that
involves rote not memorization. She's been at it
for 20+ years.

Good suggestions. Thanks!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
news
Jon,

I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and
50% is about people and getting them to work together
smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that.

I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a
solution.

Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who
at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which
offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought
they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in.
My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or
consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory.
Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each
other.

Other instructors I know have reported similar problems.

I've taught three women with identical problems to your student.
These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed
they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just
minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success.

These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent.
One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and
tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had
difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to
tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20
minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying
seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory
problems.

Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This
was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was
ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and
worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems
that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable
to hold a permanent position.

At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention
deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay
focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn.

My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is
this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they
can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory,
or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly.
Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever
it is, it's a physical limitation.

I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them,
to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory
problems I've found the people rush away after class like they
are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues
because it threatens their self esteem.

I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was
unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest
of the crew.

I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot
develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger
their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no
place for such people.

My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated
to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say
other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal
person, but it would someone with memory problems.

At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked
her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not
be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often
get lost often while driving. Ask about that.

Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from
sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings,
and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical
issue.

Bart


Jonathan Ganz wrote
I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

10 NG pts for a workable solution.

Jonathan

That's what I've been doing. She insists that she "needs the practice."
I think I'm going to get her in a regular sailing class. She'll get some
support from the other students, which may help.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"John Cairns" wrote in message
...
Did you consider asking her, in the most polite fashion possible, how you
might be able to help. Be honest with her, tell her what you're thinking,
then go from there.
John Cairns
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry.

I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

10 NG pts for a workable solution.

Jonathan

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I got that also. As I mentioned in another post, she's
been in a fairly menial job for a long time. I think we'll
keep at it for now.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:46:52 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Hey, here's an on-topic post.... sorry.

I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

10 NG pts for a workable solution.

Jonathan

She's been conditioned to fail. She probably feels guilt when she does
anything right, because she knows shes not supposed to be able to do
anything. It will take a lot of patience, and positive reinforcement
for her to overcome it. She probably has the same problems trying to
do anything, not just sailing. Her sailing lessons are anything but a
waste of money. She needs to do SOMETHING, and she knows it.

BB

Stop looking for miracles and start praising the little bitty achievements.
You guys have got her so afraid she's going to do something wrong that she's
agonizing over making everything right. She might have some
obsessive/compulsive tendencies, which would slow the learning process way
down. Have you asked her directly why she is having problems? You are
dealing with an adult here and not a kid...I'm sure she is picking up the
bad vibes from all you guys...after a while, in the spirit of trying to be
nice and patient, you're probably coming off as being patronizing. My first
suggestion would be is that she needs to be taught by a woman sailor. You
guys might reflect exactly why she has chosen an activity away from her
husband.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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the rare woman can
perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception

Bull pucky....yes, women do lag behind men in these areas, but it is because
those areas are not stressed as being important in their younger
lives....there is no reason on earth why tying a knot or running rigging
would be a difficult task for MOST women if shown how....yes, there are
inherent genetic dispositions that are different for men and women, but
these differences are not that far apart and certainly don't preclude some
ability...blanket generalizations sometimes indicate a bigoted attitude....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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You're an idiot.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
ink.net...
Bart:

Most women are not spatially oriented as men are. I've worked extensively
with women machinists, technicians, electrical and mechanical engineers.
As
a general rule, spatial things such as tying knots, running rigging,
routing
circuit boards, running pipes etc, women are at a handicap compared to
men.
It's not their fault, they are wired differently. Yes, the rare woman can
perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception. Women excel at
other things that men have a poor time doing. Learn to accept the
differences, respect them and make the most of it. For the most part,
sailing is man's world. Putting women into it will not ruin sailing, but
could lead to the ruination of women.

Bob Crantz



"Bart Senior" wrote in message
news
Jon,

I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and
50% is about people and getting them to work together
smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that.

I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a
solution.

Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who
at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which
offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought
they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in.
My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or
consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory.
Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each
other.

Other instructors I know have reported similar problems.

I've taught three women with identical problems to your student.
These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed
they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just
minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success.

These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent.
One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and
tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had
difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to
tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20
minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying
seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory
problems.

Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This
was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was
ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and
worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems
that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable
to hold a permanent position.

At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention
deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay
focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn.

My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is
this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they
can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory,
or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly.
Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever
it is, it's a physical limitation.

I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them,
to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory
problems I've found the people rush away after class like they
are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues
because it threatens their self esteem.

I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was
unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest
of the crew.

I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot
develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger
their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no
place for such people.

My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated
to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say
other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal
person, but it would someone with memory problems.

At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked
her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not
be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often
get lost often while driving. Ask about that.

Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from
sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings,
and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical
issue.

Bart


Jonathan Ganz wrote
I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

10 NG pts for a workable solution.

Jonathan

You're an idiot.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
ink.net...
Women have smaller brains than that of their male counterpart. Since the
ability to think is partly determined by the size of the brain it is
obvious
to an accurate researcher if I were to ignore the differences between the
male and female brain. The question to be posed is, with the knowledge of
the function of the human brain, can a scientist accurately determine if
the
differences in the way males and females perform various tasks is a
biological phenomena, or rather as a result of social persuasion? All
kinds
of research have shown that the bigger the brain, generally, the smarter
the
animal. (1) However, as Emily Dickinson might agree, it is not the size of
the brain that counts, but rather what is contained within the brain.
Human
male brains are, on average, approximately 10% larger than that of the
female, but this is because of men's larger body size: more muscle cells
imply more neurons to control them. (3) If the size of the brain is not
the
determinate factor of the differences between the male and female brain
what
is? Of special interest to researchers of this subject was the amount of
gray matter, the part of the brain that allows us to think. The
researchers
wanted to know if women have as much gray matter as men. (1) It would be
logical to conclude that if there is less gray matter, the component of
the
brain associated with the thinking process, than obviously, biologically
men
and superior in intellect to women. However, as is the case with many
biological researches, more questions arose than were answered. According
to
one psychology professor at the University of Pennsylvania, there is no
difference in the amount of gray matter in men and women. To make up for
the
smaller brain size, women have 55.4% gray matter vs. 50.8% in men. (1)
Thus
disputing the hypothesis that the difference in amount of gray matter is
the
reason for the difference in the way men and woman perform various tasks.
If
this is an accurate conclusion, the question still remains, why are men
more
inclined to perform better on spatial, intuitive, nonverbal tasks, such as
mathematics, while woman tend to excel at verbal, sorting, detail-oriented
tasks such as English? (4) Some scientists believe that the answer to this
question lies in the evolutionary development of the brain. Over the last
couple of decades, proponents of evolutionary psychology have been piecing
together a case that the mind is naturally sexed. Our male and female
forebears faced different evolutionary pressures in their struggle to
survive and reproduce in the Pleistocene grasslands, and as a result they
have different mental aptitudes and even differently organized brains. (5)
This would suggest that since men were the ones that hunted they are
better
equipped to analyze spatial-oriented tasks. At first this appears a
logical
conclusion. In order to hunt for food the male would have to be aware of
how
far the prey is. However, I have to question, if humans are simply
animals,
then why can this logical not be applied to all animals? In the jungle the
lioness is the one that hunts, not the lion. Yet, although the lioness is
the provider, and is capable of defending herself, since they travel in
packs, the lion is considered the King of the jungle. I believe that it
would be viewed as preposterous to suggest that we would have a Queen of
the
jungle instead of a King. The reason for this is not biological, but
rather
a social aspect. Recent decades have witnessed two contradictory
processes:
the development of scientific research into the differences between the
sexes, and the political denial that such differences exist. A hundred
years
ago, the observation that men were different from women, in a whole range
of
aptitudes, skills, and abilities, would have been leaden truism, a
statement
of the yawning obvious. Such a remark, uttered today, would evoke very
different reactions. Said by a man, it would suggest a certain social
ineptitude, a naïveté in matters of sexual politics. A woman venturing
such
an opinion would be scorned as a traitor to her sex, betraying the
hard-fought "victories" of recent decades as women have sought equality of
status, opportunity and respect. (2) Imagine a Bryn Mawr woman saying that
biologically women are inferior to men. This would be an affront to the
feminist movement that our "politically correct" society has been forced
to
include. Yes, women tend to be more verbal; this has been supported by
tests, which revealed that females speak twice as many words as the man,
and
has done so even before the age of two. (4) Yes, men tend to receive
higher
scores on logic-oriented tests; comparing the scores of SATs can support
this. Women score significantly lower than men on the SAT. In 1994, the
most
recent information available, they had an average score of 881 (out of a
possible 1600 points, 400 is the minimum), while men scored an average of
926 points, nearly 50 points higher. (6) Despite the information presented
to show that there is a difference in the way the male and female brain
operates, I still fail to see how any of the information presented proves
that one sex is superior to that of another. There are several well-known
female mathematicians and scientists. This fact disproves the idea that
men
are superior to women in logical tasks. Langston Hughes is a famous male
poet, which would disprove the idea that females are superior to men
linguistically. However, the addition of the word "generally" does make a
difference. I would have to agree that generally there are intellectual
tasks that men are better at than females. However, I am not convinced
that
this is a biological superiority, rather than social. Are women naturally
more inclined to play with Barbie Dolls, or is the societal expectation to
do this the cause. Is it the societal expectation for a man to use his wit
to be the "bread winner" in the family, the real reason why male dancers
are
not as respected as a male scientist? What is biological predisposition,
and
societal demand? So far, research has only been able to point out the
aesthetic differences of the male and female brain, and to speculate what
these differences mean in terms of the way in which the two sexes perform
various tasks. Therefore I must still maintain the phrase that was
instilled
in me by my father; I am capable of doing anything I put my mind to. WWW
Sources 1}Gender gaps on the Brain,Size of brain not determinate factor of
intelligence. 2. 2}Excerpts From Brain Sex,The biological vs. The
political
brain. 3. 3}Are There Differences between the Brains of Males and
Females?,Intellectual differences among the sexes. 4. 4}Left/Right
Brain?,Left or right brained. 5. 5}La Difference,Who is the better sex? 6.
6}Traumatic Tests: Gender Bias and the SATs,SAT statistics.conclude that
men
are superior to women in intellect, right? Now I would not be a proud Bryn
Mawr woman if I were to agree with this logic. However, I would not be




"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
ink.net...
Bart:

Most women are not spatially oriented as men are. I've worked
extensively
with women machinists, technicians, electrical and mechanical engineers.
As
a general rule, spatial things such as tying knots, running rigging,
routing
circuit boards, running pipes etc, women are at a handicap compared to
men.
It's not their fault, they are wired differently. Yes, the rare woman
can
perform expertly at such tasks but that's the exception. Women excel at
other things that men have a poor time doing. Learn to accept the
differences, respect them and make the most of it. For the most part,
sailing is man's world. Putting women into it will not ruin sailing, but
could lead to the ruination of women.

Bob Crantz



"Bart Senior" wrote in message
news
Jon,

I would not call this off topic. 50% of sailing are skills, and
50% is about people and getting them to work together
smoothly. I'm sure you will agree with that.

I've had five students with similar problems. I don't have a
solution.

Two were students I had at OCSC--an older couple, who
at first I thought were taking advantage of the club which
offered unlimited extra days to reach BK level. I thought
they were faking to get more sailing and instruction in.
My conclusion was this couple were both exposed to, or
consumed, some chemical that damaged their memory.
Or possibly people with probelms like this tend to find each
other.

Other instructors I know have reported similar problems.

I've taught three women with identical problems to your student.
These women seemed normal on the surface, but sailing revealed
they were clueless. Even with reinforcement lost new skills just
minutes later. I tried extra reinforcement without success.

These women on the surface seemed normal and intelligent.
One of them, Sandy, was a woman I dated for a while and
tried to introduce to sailing. I tried for a long time. She had
difficulty with simple knots, and could not remember how to
tack or anything else unless she'd just done it ten times. 20
minutes later I'd have to start all over again. Knot tying
seems to be the obvious clue that these people have memory
problems.

Sandy got lost constantly, even when driving to my house. This
was a familiar place, she'd been to many times and was
ridiculously easy to find. She had difficulty holding a job, and
worked as a temp employee. She had work related problems
that I suspect were also related to her memory. She was unable
to hold a permanent position.

At first I thought Sandy and my other students had attention
deficiency disorder. However, the women did seem to stay
focused, and they did make an huge effort to learn.

My conclusion again, was it is a memory issue. The analogy is
this--an IBM PC with 128k of memory. Without memory, they
can't load the big programs. Or rather, the lack of memory,
or storage means even simple tasks must be relearned constantly.
Perhaps the processor is too slow to relearn quickly? Whatever
it is, it's a physical limitation.

I spend a few minutes with each student after teaching them,
to ask them how they felt they did. In cases with memory
problems I've found the people rush away after class like they
are on fire. They don't want to confront the underlying issues
because it threatens their self esteem.

I witnessed one of the three women in a crisis situation was
unable to cope, panicked, and became a burden for the rest
of the crew.

I reluctantly came to the conclusion that people who cannot
develop their skills do not belong on a boat where they endanger
their own life and the lives of others. San Francisco Bay is no
place for such people.

My recommendation. Test her memory with something unrelated
to sailing. Give her a number to memorize and then randomly say
other numbers while sailing. This would not confuse a normal
person, but it would someone with memory problems.

At the end of the lesson ask "what was the number" [you asked
her to remember]. If she has memory problems, she will not
be able to remember. She will also be the type that will often
get lost often while driving. Ask about that.

Such discussion will allow you to segue into dissuading her from
sailing. And give her valid reasons why, without hurting feelings,
and hopefully help them recognize and deal with this as a medical
issue.

Bart


Jonathan Ganz wrote
I had a student yesterday who just does not seem to get
it at all. She spent nearly 2 hours rigging a very simple
Holder 20. Literally, a main, a jib, and that's about it.
Most students take 30 minutes tops the first time out. It
seemed like everything was a struggle for her.

I'm not sure how to proceed. When we finally got out on
the water, she did ok, but was very hesitant with almost
zero self-confidence, especially about gybing, even though
the wind was very light on the lake.

I hate to dissuade her completely from sailing, but I also
hate having her waste her money on lessons. She's had
two other instructors prior to me, and took the full basic
sailing class. Obviously, she's trying really hard... said
she wants some independence from her husband, her
own hobby, etc. I talked to one of the other instructors,
and he said basically the same thing... doesn't know
why she's having problems like this... didn't know what
to do.

She's got the basic book, she can usually tie a bowline
the first time in about 5-10 seconds, but then she gets
totally stuck on a stopper knot (fig 8). I saw her take
3-4 minutes to do it right, even with me talking her
through it and showing her countless times.

Has anyone had a student like this? What did you do?

10 NG pts for a workable solution.

Jonathan

Gee that's all I've been doing...praising, praising....

I would be happy to hand her off to a woman teacher, but
there are none associated with this program yet.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Stop looking for miracles and start praising the little bitty
achievements.
You guys have got her so afraid she's going to do something wrong that
she's
agonizing over making everything right. She might have some
obsessive/compulsive tendencies, which would slow the learning process way
down. Have you asked her directly why she is having problems? You are
dealing with an adult here and not a kid...I'm sure she is picking up the
bad vibes from all you guys...after a while, in the spirit of trying to be
nice and patient, you're probably coming off as being patronizing. My
first
suggestion would be is that she needs to be taught by a woman sailor. You
guys might reflect exactly why she has chosen an activity away from her
husband.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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I would be happy to hand her off to a woman teacher, but
there are none associated with this program yet.

Send her to Womanship or refer her to the NWSA.....after all, you are
interested in her well-being and what's best for her and not just what money
she brings into your program, hmmm?

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
I was joking about the off-topic nature of course. :-)

Thanks for the insight. She seems to have a rather
menial job (admitting clerk for a hospital),

Whew! At least she's not a burger flipper.

SV