Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Let's walk things through here, as there seems to be some confusion regarding
wet exhaust system installation, confusion caused by people looking at line
drawings from advertising brochures.

Let's take a hull with a seacock below the waterline. Just the seacock. Open
it and water flows into the hull, right? Close it and water stops. Why? The
outlet is below the waterline. Everybody agrees on that, right.

Now, let's put a length of hose on the seacock. (We called it a "hose", but
that "hose" could be the entire engine raw water cooling system. Still, we
will call it "hose".) Now, open the seacock and what happens. If the hose
outlet is below the waterline, water flows into the hull. Of course, everybody
says, the outlet is below the water line. Now, make the hose stop right at the
waterline, water stops at the top but doesn't flow into the hull (unless the
boat rocks or heels). Now, make the hose (remember, "hose" can mean the entire
engine raw water cooling system) **at least** six inches above the water line.
No water flows into the hull (of course) while the boat is level and there is
little chance water will flow into the hull under most happenstances of rocking
or heeling. Great.

Now, let's take that "hose" that opens **at least** six inches above the water
line and turn on its pump (i.e. start the engine and running its raw water
pump). What happens? Of course the engine pumps water out the top of the hose
and water flows into the hull. This water must be removed from the hull (or in
this case, the wet exhaust system), and is removed by the pressure of the
burned exhaust gases from the engine. Hence, a "wet exhaust". Notice that
when the engine stops running the water stops flowing because the outlet of the
hose is above the waterline.

"But wait a minute," somebody says, "what happens if we place a u-shaped end on
the hose and put an anti-siphon valve in it?".

Same, same **as along** the outlet of the hose is above the water line. The
engine stops the water flow stops because the outlet is higher than the water
line, the anti-siphon adds nothing but expense.

This time lets make the end of the u-shape below the water line (dumb, dumb,
dumb but let's address that in a minute). *IF* the top of the u-shape is below
the waterline the whole thing acts as if the hose were straight up. In other
words the entire hose is below the water line and if the seacock is open water
flows into the hull and/or exhaust system. Note that any anti-siphon valve
installed anywhere in this system is useless, for there is no siphon just a
hose that starts below the water line, always stays below the water line and
ends below the water line. Open the seacock water flows in and MUST be pumped
out by the running engine. This is a forbidden installation. Dumb, dumb,
dumb.

Now, let's make the **top** of the u-shape above the waterline but the outlet
below. What happens when you open the seacock? Not much, the water flows into
the hose and up until it equalizes and then stops flowing. But, turn on the
engine to a pump water and fill the entire hose with water -- from the seacock
to the top of the u-shape and down to the outlet which is below the water line
and open to the inside of the hull and/or exhaust system. Water flows and must
be pumped out (by engine exhaust pressure).

Here comes the potential for trouble.

First, when the pump stops there is in fact a siphoning effect (because while
the top of the u-shape is above the water line, the outlet is below). Under
these conditions (should the exhaust installer fail in his job, AND the boat
designer put the engine very low in the boat) there is a need to "break siphon"
by installing an anti-siphon valve. Note that this **requires** the
anti-siphon valve to be above the waterline under all potential boat heeling
positions.

Second, anti-siphon valves fail due to crud in the water. They always do
eventually. The solution for this is regular preventive maintenance. (There
is another solution to avoid anti-siphon crudding up but I have never seen it
but once.)

In other words, an engine with its water injection point of its wet exhaust
below the water line is in danger of at some point filling the exhaust system
with salt water with the engine shut off. A competent surveyor would fail a
boat with such an installation. If there was no way in hell the water
injection point could be moved higher (due to stupidity or deliberate choice by
the boat designer) then the insurance company could decline coverage or
increase its premiums to cover the greater potential for boat loss. Sooner or
later the wet exhaust is going to flood unless the boat owner is deligent about
keeping the anti-siphon clean AND is damned lucky nothing flukey happens
between maintenance events.

The solution is to mount the water injection outlet **at least** six inches
above any potential water line.

It is in the installation instruction that come with a water injection elbow.
RTFM, guys. RTFM

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

snip nonsense where jaxie tries to look intelligent, but fails


Here comes the potential for trouble.

First, when the pump stops there is in fact a siphoning effect (because while
the top of the u-shape is above the water line, the outlet is below). Under
these conditions (should the exhaust installer fail in his job, AND the boat
designer put the engine very low in the boat) there is a need to "break
siphon"
by installing an anti-siphon valve. Note that this **requires** the
anti-siphon valve to be above the waterline under all potential boat heeling
positions.

I have stated many times that all heel angles and loading condition must be
considred. You keep claiming that engines are not installed bleow the
waterline, but this is clearly not the case. The engine is below the waterline
on almost all sailboats. You should check them out sometime.



Second, anti-siphon valves fail due to crud in the water. They always do
eventually. The solution for this is regular preventive maintenance.

Yes, this is a problem - boats require maintenance. However, this is not too
much of a problem with a modern setup. The siphon break can simply be a vent
hole with a tube that drains overboard, or into a cockpit drain. As long as
water flows out the tube, the siphon break is not clogged. On my boat, the
siphon break flow is visible from the helm and is a good way to tell that all is
well. Here's the installation manual for the Vetus:

http://www.vetus.nl/pdf/03M0405_0499.htm

(There
is another solution to avoid anti-siphon crudding up but I have never seen it
but once.)

Not surprising that you've never seen it and don't want to tell us about it.



In other words, an engine with its water injection point of its wet exhaust
below the water line

You mean the majority of sailboats.

is in danger of at some point filling the exhaust system
with salt water with the engine shut off. A competent surveyor would fail a
boat with such an installation.

Nonsense. In fact, the 41 foot center cockpit I mentioned was exhaustively
surveyed by a gentleman considered the best surveyor of older boats on the East
Coast. (I won't mention his name because jaxie would just use it as an excuse
to demean his good name.) Actually, any surveyor would fail a boat that
doesn't have a siphon break when its needed.

If there was no way in hell the water
injection point could be moved higher (due to stupidity or deliberate choice
by
the boat designer) then the insurance company could decline coverage or
increase its premiums to cover the greater potential for boat loss.

So why is it that the ABYC never mentions this problem? They clearly recognize
the issue, since they require a a siphon break in this situation. The are a
number of other areas where they say "This should be avoided ..." but they don't
in this case.


Sooner or
later the wet exhaust is going to flood unless the boat owner is deligent
about
keeping the anti-siphon clean

Or installs a proper vent, like the Vetus.

AND is damned lucky nothing flukey happens
between maintenance events.

Like being run down by you?


The solution is to mount the water injection outlet **at least** six inches
above any potential water line.

That would work, but unfortunately most sailboats are designed so that it is not
possible. Remember, the ABYC stardard says the issue exists if the exhaust
manifold, not just the injection point, is below the water line. Since the
manifold is about 8 inches from the prop shaft, its pretty hard to satisfy this
without having an extreme down angle and an 8 foot shaft!


It is in the installation instruction that come with a water injection elbow.
RTFM, guys. RTFM

What manual is that, jaxie? Not the Yanmar installation guide - I posted that
and it says to use an siphon break. Not the ABYC guidelines - I posted that and
it says to use an siphon break. Do you have a secret manual you'd like to share
with us?

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

What's your claim jaxie, that people are going to remount their engine based on
my advice? All I've done is to quote the ABYC standards - your the one claiming
that all the advice of the experts is faulty! Do you actually thing that
another would be so stupid as to believe you??? Do you really think you have
any slight thread of credibility????? Just how delusional are you jaxie?



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
wrote:

[snip all but the important stuff]


PLEASE!!!! don't anyone follow jeffies ramblings. you can get hurt, and
jeffies doesn't care a wit.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

What's your claim jaxie, that people are going to remount their engine based
on
my advice?

no, but there is a chance someone just as dumb as you will mount a water
injection unit below the water line, a forbidden practise even if it took you
several days to even begin to understand why.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

I write an explanation of something utterly simple, and write it in words even
a 11 year old girl would understand, and jeffies dismisses it as an attempt "to
look intelligent" thusly:

snip nonsense where jaxie tries to look intelligent, but fails


my, my, my. jeffies considers the use of words understandable by a sixth grade
girl to be putting on intellectual airs. I wonder what jeffies would think of
the New York Times (should he ever see one), for they write so eighth grade
girls can understand.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
What's your claim jaxie, that people are going to remount their engine based
on
my advice?

no, but there is a chance someone just as dumb as you will mount a water
injection unit below the water line, a forbidden practise even if it took you
several days to even begin to understand why.

If the engine is below the waterline, its impossible to have the exhaust
manifold above the waterline. Unless, of course, you have a "magic manifold"
that can be mounted several feet away from the engine.

You can use a special elbow to raise the injection point a few inches, but that
does not satisfy the requirement that a siphon break is required if the manifold
is below the waterline. Do you know what a manifold is, jaxie? Can you
explain how you're going to raise that up?

Even if you raise the injection point a few inches, on many boats that will not
raise it above the waterline at all angles of heel and at all loading.

Squirm all you want, jaxie, you haven't explained how you can have the shaft
several feet below the waterline while the engine is above. Are you saying the
shaft should be 20 feet long?

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

If the engine is below the waterline, its impossible to have the exhaust
manifold above the waterline.

really? see below

Unless, of course, you have a "magic manifold"
that can be mounted several feet away from the engine.

You can use a special elbow to raise the injection point a few inches

"a few inches"?? at least six inches above the water line. and there is not a
think "special" about it. the pipe is solid bolted to the manifold, an elbow
turns the pipe **UP**, jeffies, until high enough, then the water injection
elbow is mounted, etc.

what word don't you understand?

but that
does not satisfy the requirement that a siphon break is required if the
manifold
is below the waterline.

jeffies, it is NOT the manifold you need to worry about (anymore than you need
to worry about where the oil pump is) BUT where the water (from outside the
hull) empties into the system, THEREFORE if the water injection point is above
the water line **there is no siphon potential**. None.

jeffies, this is easy stuff. as in E Z.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

kriste almighty, jeffies, I explained it to you in words understandable by an
11 year old girl. wake up, dude. Get your wife to explain it to you this
time.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
If the engine is below the waterline, its impossible to have the exhaust
manifold above the waterline.

really? see below

Yes really, its the standard, and its the law. The ABYC says a siphon break is
"recommended in applications where the exhaust manifold may be below the
waterline at any angle of heel." And the Code of Federal Regulations, 46CFR182
says that the ABYC standard is the law in this area. The CFR also says the
injection must be as close as possible to the manifold.

So while you can claim that the injection point is the important point to
measure, the law says otherwise. Failure to abide by this would certainly mean
failing a survey, and making it impossible to insure the boat.




Unless, of course, you have a "magic manifold"
that can be mounted several feet away from the engine.

You can use a special elbow to raise the injection point a few inches

"a few inches"?? at least six inches above the water line.

Actually its just 5 inches higher. When the boat is "at repose." Let it heel
45 degrees, and its only 3.5 inches higher.

and there is not a
think "special" about it. the pipe is solid bolted to the manifold, an elbow
turns the pipe **UP**, jeffies, until high enough, then the water injection
elbow is mounted, etc.

It's special in the sense that in the Yanmar parts catalog the "straight pipe"
is the standard one, while the raised elbow is listed as "optional equipment."
Admittedly, almost all sailboats would use the raised elbow. (A friend has a
new YM engine with the straight pipe, but its a catamaran with a single engine
perched a foot above the water driving a Sonic Leg.)



what word don't you understand?

I understand perfectly. Why is it that you continually claim the standard and
the law should be ignored? Its very simple: if the manifold is below the
waterline, a siphon break should be installed. Failure to do so means failing
the survey, no insurance, no marina, no sale.


but that
does not satisfy the requirement that a siphon break is required if the
manifold
is below the waterline.

jeffies, it is NOT the manifold you need to worry about (anymore than you need
to worry about where the oil pump is) BUT where the water (from outside the
hull) empties into the system, THEREFORE if the water injection point is above
the water line **there is no siphon potential**. None.

That's not what the standard says. That's not what the law says. Why are you
claiming the law should be ignored?


jeffies, this is easy stuff. as in E Z.

It sure is, jaxie, and you still don't get it.

You still haven't explained how the engine can be mounted so that the manifold
(or even the injection point) can stay above the waterline. In any center
cockpit boat, for example. the entire engine will be well below the waterline,
even before heeling is considered. Raising the injection point 5 inches still
won't help.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

jeffies, jeffies, jeffies why is it
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooo difficult for you to
understand English, as the language is used. let's take a look at the term you
can't seem to understand, to wit:

a siphon break is
"recommended in applications where the exhaust manifold may be below the
waterline at any angle of heel."

take a look at that, jeffies. read it again. and again. and again, until you
understand that "exhaust manifold" in this case means **the point of the
exhaust manifold open to ambient air pressure**.
In other words, the water injection point.

jeffies, the exhaust manifold has just two openings in it. the opening to the
engine valves and the opening to pipe leading to the water lift muffler. I
know this may be difficult for you to understand, jeffies, but every last piece
of the exhaust manifold is metal, the pieces bolted together not only water
tight but **air** tight. jeffies, water can not go through the metal walls of
the exhaust manifold. It can't. water can only get into the exhaust system
through the water injection point. That's only. Only place.

Therefore, **the part of the exhaust manifold allows water into the system MUST
be above the water line** (ignore special cases requiring special care that
might be used in racing boats and/or military applications).

jeffies, you are arguing something you don't understand. It is the water
induction part of the manifold that has to be above the water line, not the
engine valve part.

If the engine is below the waterline, its impossible to have the exhaust
manifold above the waterline.

really? see below

Yes really, its the standard, and its the law. The ABYC says a siphon break
is
"recommended in applications where the exhaust manifold may be below the
waterline at any angle of heel." And the Code of Federal Regulations,
46CFR182
says that the ABYC standard is the law in this area. The CFR also says the
injection must be as close as possible to the manifold.

So while you can claim that the injection point is the important point to
measure, the law says otherwise. Failure to abide by this would certainly
mean
failing a survey, and making it impossible to insure the boat.




Unless, of course, you have a "magic manifold"
that can be mounted several feet away from the engine.

You can use a special elbow to raise the injection point a few inches

"a few inches"?? at least six inches above the water line.

Actually its just 5 inches higher. When the boat is "at repose." Let it
heel
45 degrees, and its only 3.5 inches higher.

and there is not a
think "special" about it. the pipe is solid bolted to the manifold, an
elbow
turns the pipe **UP**, jeffies, until high enough, then the water injection
elbow is mounted, etc.

It's special in the sense that in the Yanmar parts catalog the "straight
pipe"
is the standard one, while the raised elbow is listed as "optional
equipment."
Admittedly, almost all sailboats would use the raised elbow. (A friend has
a
new YM engine with the straight pipe, but its a catamaran with a single
engine
perched a foot above the water driving a Sonic Leg.)



what word don't you understand?

I understand perfectly. Why is it that you continually claim the standard
and
the law should be ignored? Its very simple: if the manifold is below the
waterline, a siphon break should be installed. Failure to do so means
failing
the survey, no insurance, no marina, no sale.


but that
does not satisfy the requirement that a siphon break is required if the
manifold
is below the waterline.

jeffies, it is NOT the manifold you need to worry about (anymore than you
need
to worry about where the oil pump is) BUT where the water (from outside the
hull) empties into the system, THEREFORE if the water injection point is
above
the water line **there is no siphon potential**. None.

That's not what the standard says. That's not what the law says. Why are
you
claiming the law should be ignored?


jeffies, this is easy stuff. as in E Z.

It sure is, jaxie, and you still don't get it.

You still haven't explained how the engine can be mounted so that the
manifold
(or even the injection point) can stay above the waterline. In any center
cockpit boat, for example. the entire engine will be well below the
waterline,
even before heeling is considered. Raising the injection point 5 inches
still
won't help.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Poor Jocks, he's only had experience with one lungers.
One day, when he gets a job, he'll be able to afford a twin cylinder
engine.

oxxy, what the hell are you blabbering about? are you really trying to say
that "valve overlap" means water goes through the metal walls of the manifold?
Or are you trying to say that "valve overlap" means water comes into the
exhaust manifold *from* the cylinders, but only if the engine has two or more
cylinders?

what the hell ARE you saying??

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, jeffies, jeffies why is it
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooo difficult for you to
understand English, as the language is used. let's take a look at the term
you
can't seem to understand, to wit:

a siphon break is
"recommended in applications where the exhaust manifold may be below the
waterline at any angle of heel."

take a look at that, jeffies. read it again. and again. and again, until
you
understand that "exhaust manifold" in this case means **the point of the
exhaust manifold open to ambient air pressure**.
In other words, the water injection point.

I keep reading it and your words are not there. Engineering and fantasy are not
the same thing, jaxie. The ABYC standards are complete with pictures labeling
the "manifold" and other exhaust components. If they meant that a siphon break
was need if the injection point was below the waterline, they would have said
so.



jeffies, the exhaust manifold has just two openings in it. the opening to the
engine valves and the opening to pipe leading to the water lift muffler. I
know this may be difficult for you to understand, jeffies, but every last
piece
of the exhaust manifold is metal, the pieces bolted together not only water
tight but **air** tight. jeffies, water can not go through the metal walls of
the exhaust manifold. It can't. water can only get into the exhaust system
through the water injection point. That's only. Only place.

Therefore, **the part of the exhaust manifold allows water into the system
MUST
be above the water line** (ignore special cases requiring special care that
might be used in racing boats and/or military applications).

If this was so important, why is it never mentioned in the ABYC standards? Why
can't you find a single site that backs you up? Why do the standards give
specific instructions for when the manifold is under the waterline, after they
describe how risers are connected to the manifold?

Obviously, the experts do not agree with you. The wording is unambiguous and
clear.



jeffies, you are arguing something you don't understand. It is the water
induction part of the manifold

The manifold is the manifold. Redefining the terms to suit your argument
doesn't change the law. The ABYC standards even describe the construction of
the pipe that connects the manifold to the injection point: "The section of
the exhaust system extending from the engine manifold to the point of water
injection shall be constructed the same as a dry exhaust system."


that has to be above the water line, not the
engine valve part.

Sorry jax, you seem to be all alone in this.

You still haven't explained how all those boats that have the engine well below
the waterline magically have the manifolds above the waterline, at all angles of
heel. You seem to claim the designers build their boat around the concept that
the engine must be as high as possible. The truth is the opposite: the engine
is mounted as low as possible, mainly to keep weight low, but also to minimize
the shaft angle, and to keep the engine out of the saloon. Maybe this is why
the standards never once mention that the injection point must be above the
waterline, but they do say that a siphon break is needed if the manifold is
below the waterline.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


Oz1

you are wrong. think it through, oxxy, and if you have to go back and read my
explanation of yesterday done in words an 11 year old girl could understand.
Nevermind that jeffies felt that using words understandable by an 11 year old
girl was putting on intellectual airs. it is all in there, oxxy, all there.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level capabable of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

The most common reason for arrested development was either mental illness or
mental incapacity. The first are unwilling to grow up, the second can't
understand the greater world so settle into a blind acceptance of things for
various reasons. One such reasons -- out of many possible -- is that they read
it word for word somewhere. These are people unable to understand concepts, or
even the second or third dictionary definitions for words. They have literal
minds. In the world of business they are best suited for repetitive jobs, or
sometimes maintenance code work in IT shops.

jeffies, jeffies, jeffies why is it
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooo difficult for you
to
understand English, as the language is used. let's take a look at the term
you
can't seem to understand, to wit:

a siphon break is
"recommended in applications where the exhaust manifold may be below the
waterline at any angle of heel."

take a look at that, jeffies. read it again. and again. and again, until
you
understand that "exhaust manifold" in this case means **the point of the
exhaust manifold open to ambient air pressure**.
In other words, the water injection point.

I keep reading it and your words are not there. Engineering and fantasy are
not
the same thing, jaxie. The ABYC standards are complete with pictures
labeling
the "manifold" and other exhaust components. If they meant that a siphon
break
was need if the injection point was below the waterline, they would have said
so.



jeffies, the exhaust manifold has just two openings in it. the opening to
the
engine valves and the opening to pipe leading to the water lift muffler. I
know this may be difficult for you to understand, jeffies, but every last
piece
of the exhaust manifold is metal, the pieces bolted together not only water
tight but **air** tight. jeffies, water can not go through the metal walls
of
the exhaust manifold. It can't. water can only get into the exhaust
system
through the water injection point. That's only. Only place.

Therefore, **the part of the exhaust manifold allows water into the system
MUST
be above the water line** (ignore special cases requiring special care that
might be used in racing boats and/or military applications).

If this was so important, why is it never mentioned in the ABYC standards?
Why
can't you find a single site that backs you up? Why do the standards give
specific instructions for when the manifold is under the waterline, after
they
describe how risers are connected to the manifold?

Obviously, the experts do not agree with you. The wording is unambiguous and
clear.



jeffies, you are arguing something you don't understand. It is the water
induction part of the manifold

The manifold is the manifold. Redefining the terms to suit your argument
doesn't change the law. The ABYC standards even describe the construction of
the pipe that connects the manifold to the injection point: "The section
of
the exhaust system extending from the engine manifold to the point of water
injection shall be constructed the same as a dry exhaust system."


that has to be above the water line, not the
engine valve part.

Sorry jax, you seem to be all alone in this.

You still haven't explained how all those boats that have the engine well
below
the waterline magically have the manifolds above the waterline, at all angles
of
heel. You seem to claim the designers build their boat around the concept
that
the engine must be as high as possible. The truth is the opposite: the
engine
is mounted as low as possible, mainly to keep weight low, but also to
minimize
the shaft angle, and to keep the engine out of the saloon. Maybe this is why
the standards never once mention that the injection point must be above the
waterline, but they do say that a siphon break is needed if the manifold is
below the waterline.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

"JAXAshby" admits he was making it up all along:
jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

jeff, there is no hope for you.

jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeff, there is no hope for you.

Jaxie, now you're reduced to a 5 year old screaming over and over that you're
right! You even had to repeat your nonsense 10 times. What a little baby you
are, jaxie! Just plain pathetic!




jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

jeffies, I am unable to effectively communicate with someone who doesn't
understand English at least at a fourth grade level. go play in the sandbox
until recess is over.

jeff, there is no hope for you.

Jaxie, now you're reduced to a 5 year old screaming over and over that you're
right! You even had to repeat your nonsense 10 times. What a little baby
you
are, jaxie! Just plain pathetic!




jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.









jeffies, back in the days when I was required to study
morals/ethics/philosophy
as part of going to school, your kind of thinking was referred to as
"arrested", as in thinking that had not developed beyond the level
capabable
of
an average seven old kid. Literally, jeffies, literally.

Poor jaxie, so jealous he has to resort to pathetic babbling ...

Jaxie, if there was any truth at all to your claims you would have found
some
support for it on the internet. Instead, we found that the national
standards,
the Federal law, the primary manufacturers, and all of the experts all
disagree
with you.

Its no wonder that you've been reduced to childish hissy fits.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, I am unable to effectively communicate with someone who doesn't
understand English at least at a fourth grade level.

Is that why your own kids won't talk to you?

... go play in the sandbox
until recess is over.

Hey, you forgot to mention something about riding the short bus to school

DSK

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

no, dum-dum. an exhaust system *IS* sealed against water intrusion
***except*** through and from the water injection point OR -- under special
conditions -- through the exhaust thru-hull. This last only happens when the
engine is not running and the boat is seriously rocking for some time. This
last condition in no way is mitigated by any anti-siphon valve placed anywhere
in the system.

oxxy, you cain't read no how.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


Oz1

you are wrong. think it through, oxxy, and if you have to go back and read
my
explanation of yesterday done in words an 11 year old girl could understand.
Nevermind that jeffies felt that using words understandable by an 11 year
old
girl was putting on intellectual airs. it is all in there, oxxy, all there.

There it is,
According to Jocks, an exhaust system is completely sealed.
Nothing gets in, Nothing gets out.

I guess that makes em quiet though.

Bwaaahahahhaahahaahahahahaa!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Ozone wrote
There it is,
According to Jocks, an exhaust system is completely sealed.
Nothing gets in, Nothing gets out.

similar to his head

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

First an exhaust is a sealed system

it is.

that can't get water into it,

it can. from and only from the water injection point and from the ocean.

now
it's got a water injection system,

yup, which has to be higher than the waterline or it will flood when the engine
is not running and the seacock is open

and an end open to the sea.

yes, that is why the lift outlet hose from the water lift muffler is supposed
to be at least 12 inches, better yet 18 inches, above the exhaust thru-hull.

what word didn't you understand, oxxy?

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Then you try and tell me that water can only get into the exhaust when
the boat is "seriously rocking for some time".
What is this "seriously rocking"?

that is rocking through an angle fore and aft to the point that water in the
exhaust thru-hull is tipped and rolled forward enough to rise above the high
point of the exhaust outlet hose coming from the water lift muffler. It is
also rocking enough times to fill the water lift muffler from reverse and then
fill the outlet hose to more or less its high point to push the water in the
water lift muffler back into the engine exhaust manifold and push the air in
any cylinder with an open exhaust valve past that cylinder's rings and then
fill the cylinder with water. On most boats with a properly installed exhaust
outlet hose this is not a problem as the boats are normally used. In some
special cases the installation does also need to prevent water ingress due to
rocking.

Got anything to do with being on an ocean?

not really, through rocking conditions sufficient to water ingress are more
likely on the ocean that fresh water, ocean water is not necessary.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

JAXAshby wrote:
First an exhaust is a sealed system

???

If it's sealed, then how does exhaust get into and/or out of it? How
does water?

And how come you never answered my question about whether the engine is
functioning as an air pump when it's cranking over but not starting?

Jaxxie, if you can't help my quest for technical knowledge, I guess I'll
have to ask Navvie...

DSK

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

oxxy, bring something of value to the discussion or go back to your sandbox.

First an exhaust is a sealed system

it is.

OK, is that good?

that can't get water into it,

it can. from and only from the water injection point and from the ocean.

Oh OK, so that's not goo right?
After all something that's sealed shouldn't leak eh?

now
it's got a water injection system,

yup, which has to be higher than the waterline or it will flood when the
engine
is not running and the seacock is open

OK, we covered taht, the sealed exhaust system isn't sealed but open
at 2 points....3 actually but you'd need to know a little about
engines to understand that......then again is it 4 points if you count
the syphon break?


what word didn't you understand, oxxy?

I'm still a little stumped on a totally sealed exhaust which you're
worried about getting water through the manifold when it's got open
ends.
BTW Jocks, ever seen what happens when a boat partially fills because
of say a holing and settles about 12"?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

First an exhaust is a sealed system

???

If it's sealed, then how does exhaust get into and/or out of it?

the term sealed was used in the context of water ingress. keep up with the
class, dougies, or be left behind.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

And how come you never answered my question about whether the engine is
functioning as an air pump when it's cranking over but not starting?


because it was and is not germaine to the discussion.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Hang on just a tick, why must the air get forced past the rings?

it does have to, and wouldn't if the rings were perfectly air tight. but rings
are never perfectly tight.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Why can't it be forced back thru the open inlet (sic) valve?

really, oxxy? how quaint that you are not aware the exhaust manifold does not
open to any intake valve.

btw, the term in intake valve not inlet valve in the English speaking part of
the world where cousins marrying cousins is a forbidden practise.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Hey Jocks I'm playing in the same place as you!

no, oxxy, you are in a universe known only to you.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

It's open from the carb inlet to the exhaust outlet sometimes.

not to water ingress, it isn't on a properly install system.

So guess what, it's protected against syphonage.

there is no chance at all of siphoning water through a carb, OR through the
exhaust thru-hull on a properly installed system. the only chance of
"syphonage" comes about when the water injection point be installed below the
water line.

Do you know how high you can lift water with a syphon before allowing
it to fall again?

zero point zero inches if the outlet point is above the water line.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

No overlap on your single cylinder engine Jocks?

no overlap possible if the exhaust valve is closed, as was stated in the
discussion you are arguing with.

also, no possible way for water from a flooded exhaust system to be forced past
an open intake valve to get *to* the cylinder.

your arguement is specious.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Oh and it is possible to have perfectly airtight rings

in a universe inhabitted only by you, oxxy.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

My understanding...obviously better than yours, is that at certain
stages of the 4 stroke cycle its possible to pass air from the inlet
tract over the piston and out thru the exhaust.

not possible with a closed exhaust valve, as specified in the discussion from
the start.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Uh huh,
Now how do you guarantee that the exhaust is closed?

that was the given.

It is entirely possible for water to pass into the cylinder via an
open ex valve and then into the inlet manifold via an inlet valve that
is also open at the same time.

the given was an open exhaust valve. no open exhaust valve no water in a
cylinder.

your arguement is specious, oxxy. suitable only for a universe that only you
inhabit.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

the only chance of
"syphonage" comes about when the water injection point be installed below
the
water line.

Isn't where this all started?
You stating that anti sypon devices weren't necessary?

it is forbidden to install the water injection point below the water line,
therefore there is no use for an anti-siphon valve. None. There is no siphon
potential at all on a properly installed system.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

Ahh but how far can it be lifted within the syphon if the outlet is
below the inlet water level?


that was never part of the discussion, oxxy, except in the universe that only
you inhabit.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

"JAXAshby" repeated his blunder with:

it is forbidden to install the water injection point below the water line,
therefore there is no use for an anti-siphon valve. None. There is no siphon
potential at all on a properly installed system.

Why do you keep saying this? There is absolutely no mention of the in the ABYC
standards, the CFR, or on any other web site. They all simply say the a siphon
break should be used. While many boats use risers to reduce the risk of
siphoning, the standards are clear that a siphon break is required if the
manifold is below the water line.

You keep claiming its "forbidden" but you have never said who forbids it nor
have you backed up your claim with any references.

I'm sure you'll respond with one of your juvenile "comebacks" which only serve
to prove you really have no idea what you're talking about, and you're too much
of a coward to admit it.

Siphons, anti-siphons & wet exhausts
 

JAXAshby wrote:
the term sealed was used in the context of water ingress. keep up with the
class, dougies, or be left behind.

But if it is sealed then how can water get into it?

Seems to me that a sealed exhaust system would not be able to siphon
water back in now matter how much the boat rocked...

DSK