A question of seamanship?
 

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd

Was there a hurricane coming???? But can you spot what's wrong?

Cheers

A question of seamanship?
 

OMG.... Not another 'Catenary's thread!!!! ;-)

I take it the vessel weathered the storm.....

CM


"Navigator" wrote in message
...
| http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd
|
| Was there a hurricane coming???? But can you spot what's wrong?
|
| Cheers
|

A question of seamanship?
 

Navigator wrote:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd

Was there a hurricane coming????

Yep

http://www2.ncsu.edu/eos/service/pam.../20030918.html


But can you spot what's wrong?

Yes indeed. We had to put down our beer.

DSK

A question of seamanship?
 

Alas it did.

Cheers

Capt. Mooron wrote:

OMG.... Not another 'Catenary's thread!!!! ;-)

I take it the vessel weathered the storm.....

CM


"Navigator" wrote in message
...
| http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd
|
| Was there a hurricane coming???? But can you spot what's wrong?
|
| Cheers
|

A question of seamanship?
 

DSK wrote:

Navigator wrote:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd

Was there a hurricane coming????


Yep

http://www2.ncsu.edu/eos/service/pam.../20030918.html



But can you spot what's wrong?




No, there's a couple of other things...

Cheers

A question of seamanship?
 

Guy standing between the line and bulwarks is asking to get a serious
rope burn or worse if the other holding it should suddenly let go, since
he has no "turn" on anything.

A question of seamanship?
 

otnmbrd wrote:
Guy standing between the line and bulwarks is asking to get a serious
rope burn or worse if the other holding it should suddenly let go, since
he has no "turn" on anything.

?? There is nobody between a line and a bulwark. There are three lines
in this picture

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd

One dock line is secured at the port hawse. The second is led from the
samson post to the port hawse, then to the dock. The third is from the
samson post to the starboard hawse and then to an anchor which is just
starting to dig in.

These lines were sweated up pretty tight by hand, but I doubt that would
snap any of them. Since the boat was not in motion, and no line was
secured to anything that had any potential to move, the danger seems
very slight. Normally we are very careful of lines under strain and I'm
a little surprised you'd make this comment.

The boat was being secured for a hurricane and the anchor was set to
hold the boat away from the dock, also as a precaution against strong
current in the canal. We were in a canal above the locks, this was about
as a good place to secure for a hurricane as could be found on the US
East Coast. The other pictures that show the chafing gear, which worked
magnificently, might be of interest.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

A question of seamanship?
 

Navigator wrote:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd

Was there a hurricane coming???? But can you spot what's wrong?

I know!!! I know!!!

These guys are just fooling around with ropes when they should be
critiquing a 10 year old picture of a Lightning regatta.

What do I win?

--
//-Walt
//
// There's a village in Texas that's missing its idiot.

A question of seamanship?
 

Walt wrote:
I know!!! I know!!!

These guys are just fooling around with ropes when they should be
critiquing a 10 year old picture of a Lightning regatta.

What do I win?

Aw c'mon Walt, it's only about eight years old.

DSK

A question of seamanship?
 

DSK wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:

Guy standing between the line and bulwarks is asking to get a serious
rope burn or worse if the other holding it should suddenly let go,
since he has no "turn" on anything.


?? There is nobody between a line and a bulwark. There are three lines
in this picture

Look again. The person in jeans is standing (ok, sitting with his
feet..) in a hole, made up of the bulwarks, anchor/bow pulpit and the
line which is leading around the samson post (G thanks for saying
that, I couldn't for the life of me remember what to call that ....
brain phart).
Now, admittedly, it would not appear that there is much if any strain on
the line the other is holding, however, one never knows what might
happen, and considering the lead of this line, if some great strain
should come on it and the one guy lose his grip, that line could whip
around onto the person in the "hole".
Again, you know what was going on with other lines, etc., but in viewing
the picture, all I see is someone standing in a "hole", one side of
which is a line and to me this is as big a no-no as standing in a bight,
no matter what the circumstances.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd

One dock line is secured at the port hawse. The second is led from the
samson post to the port hawse, then to the dock. The third is from the
samson post to the starboard hawse and then to an anchor which is just
starting to dig in.

These lines were sweated up pretty tight by hand, but I doubt that would
snap any of them. Since the boat was not in motion, and no line was
secured to anything that had any potential to move, the danger seems
very slight. Normally we are very careful of lines under strain and I'm
a little surprised you'd make this comment.

See above. Normally stepping into a bight on a line that's not going
anywhere and has no real strain will not be dangerous. It's that one
time you forget to watch what's going on and step in a bight, that cost
you a leg ..... same applies to the situation above.

otn


The boat was being secured for a hurricane and the anchor was set to
hold the boat away from the dock, also as a precaution against strong
current in the canal. We were in a canal above the locks, this was about
as a good place to secure for a hurricane as could be found on the US
East Coast. The other pictures that show the chafing gear, which worked
magnificently, might be of interest.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

A question of seamanship?
 

DSK wrote:
Walt wrote:
I know!!! I know!!!

These guys are just fooling around with ropes when they should be
critiquing a 10 year old picture of a Lightning regatta.

What do I win?

Aw c'mon Walt, it's only about eight years old.

Are you talking about the picture, or the level of discourse?

--
//-Walt
//
// Sigs suck. Oh, the irony.

A question of seamanship?
 

Will add my two cents to otn's.
Whether or not there was any strain on the lines, having the feet in the area
between the lines run and bulwarks especially as in the picture, is not a good
idea.
We all do it and normally get away with it, but it's the one time that proves
the value of always watching where we stand, and standing in a "hole" as otn
describes it, is a situation to be avoided.

Shen

A question of seamanship?
 

Shen44 wrote:
Will add my two cents to otn's.
Whether or not there was any strain on the lines, having the feet in the area
between the lines run and bulwarks especially as in the picture, is not a good
idea.
We all do it and normally get away with it, but it's the one time that proves
the value of always watching where we stand, and standing in a "hole" as otn
describes it, is a situation to be avoided.

Agreed. However, it does not seem to me that it applies to this picture,
as nobody is between a line under strain and a solid part of the boat.

primitive ASCII diagram, Xs represent people, [ is the bulwark, __) is
the line around the samson post
[
[ X
[____
[ __)
[ X
[

But I am definitely interested in learning. Given the layout of the
foredeck in the picture, where do you suggest the crew place themselves
when working lines?

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

A question of seamanship?
 

DSK wrote:
Shen44 wrote:

Will add my two cents to otn's.
Whether or not there was any strain on the lines, having the feet in
the area
between the lines run and bulwarks especially as in the picture, is
not a good
idea.
We all do it and normally get away with it, but it's the one time that
proves
the value of always watching where we stand, and standing in a "hole"
as otn
describes it, is a situation to be avoided.


Agreed. However, it does not seem to me that it applies to this picture,
as nobody is between a line under strain and a solid part of the boat.

I think we all agree that in this picture there is no real strain on
these lines. However the point I'm trying to make is that you never want
to put yourself in a position that has a potential to cause injury
during conditions where there IS strain ... i.e., practice positioning
yourself around lines, safely at all times.

primitive ASCII diagram, Xs represent people, [ is the bulwark, __) is
the line around the samson post
[
[ X
[____
[ __)
[ X
[

But I am definitely interested in learning. Given the layout of the
foredeck in the picture, where do you suggest the crew place themselves
when working lines?

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd

Fresh Breezes- Doug King



[ X' X"
[ X' X"
[ \ /
[______.)
[
[

g Same crude drawing ... X' would be best, X" would be a potential or
combination of the two, depending on what you need and cleats or bitts
for securing the line.
Finding a good place to stand is not always easy and frequently involves
compromises.
I'm trying to point out a potential problem that may not have been a
concern in this particular instance, but could be in others and needs to
be watched for in all cases.

otn

A question of seamanship?
 

otnmbrd wrote:
I'm trying to point out a potential problem that may not have been a
concern in this particular instance, but could be in others and needs to
be watched for in all cases.

Agreed. The diagram was good BTW

Actually, the lines in the pic were under as much strain as two men
sweating them could get; the boat was pulled down several inches and the
dock lines were groaning. However, it was not the kind of strain that
was going to run away with the line. If it had snapped, yes, potential
issue there. Anyway, this weekend we'll take a look at our fore deck &
afterdeck and think a little bit about how to avoid this kind of
exposure in the future.

I learned line safety in the Navy and they take it pretty seriously.
Some years ago I watched (and tried to prevent, as I saw it about to
happen) a man break most of the bones in his hand as a dockline snapped
tight and crushed it against a cockpit coaming.

I was hoping at least one of the hurricane pictures would show the
Tugboat Hitch I had on the samson post for a while.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

A question of seamanship?
 

No strain? What was that about the bow sinking and concrete blocks and
such? What are the lines made of? Is it correct to increase the load on
a mooring beyond that required to tack slack out of lines? If any
surging is expected what may happen if the lines are not nylon and
overly prestressed. As I said, it's all a queation of seamsnhip -think
about it.

Cheers

otnmbrd wrote:



DSK wrote:

Shen44 wrote:

Will add my two cents to otn's.
Whether or not there was any strain on the lines, having the feet in
the area
between the lines run and bulwarks especially as in the picture, is
not a good
idea.
We all do it and normally get away with it, but it's the one time
that proves
the value of always watching where we stand, and standing in a "hole"
as otn
describes it, is a situation to be avoided.



Agreed. However, it does not seem to me that it applies to this
picture, as nobody is between a line under strain and a solid part of
the boat.


I think we all agree that in this picture there is no real strain on
these lines. However the point I'm trying to make is that you never want
to put yourself in a position that has a potential to cause injury
during conditions where there IS strain ... i.e., practice positioning
yourself around lines, safely at all times.


primitive ASCII diagram, Xs represent people, [ is the bulwark, __) is
the line around the samson post
[
[ X
[____
[ __)
[ X
[

But I am definitely interested in learning. Given the layout of the
foredeck in the picture, where do you suggest the crew place
themselves when working lines?

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93692203gOXLkd

Fresh Breezes- Doug King



[ X' X"
[ X' X"
[ \ /
[______.)
[
[

g Same crude drawing ... X' would be best, X" would be a potential or
combination of the two, depending on what you need and cleats or bitts
for securing the line.
Finding a good place to stand is not always easy and frequently involves
compromises.
I'm trying to point out a potential problem that may not have been a
concern in this particular instance, but could be in others and needs to
be watched for in all cases.

otn

A question of seamanship?
 

Navigator wrote:
No strain?

Only between your ears

... What was that about the bow sinking and concrete blocks and
such?

It is quite straight forward. We put a bundle of four concrete blocks on
the anchor chain, then set the anchor by taking the heaviest strain we
could. Once it was dug in very well, we eased off the lines and
re-adjusted the docklines.

Do you have comment on the chafing gear, which is one of the most
important parts of hurricane preparation?


... What are the lines made of?

I don't know about yours. Ours are nylon.

... Is it correct to increase the load on
a mooring beyond that required to tack slack out of lines?

It is if you're trying to set an anchor.

... If any
surging is expected what may happen if the lines are not nylon and
overly prestressed.

How much surge would you expect in a small canal, above the locks?

... As I said, it's all a queation of seamsnhip -think
about it.

OK, come back & tell us after you've had some time to think, then.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King