Scott Vernon wrote:
"Jim Cate" wrote


Regarding the initial question, I notice that there weren't very many
responses assuring me that most boat owners sail frequently and
therefore get their money's worth from their boats. Is this a sensitive
subject that most sailors don't want to talk about?


No, quite frankly Jim, it's a stupid question. What does it matter how much
time other people spend on their boat? Are you a sheep? A buddy who had a
power boat used to keep track of what he spent and how much time he used it.
He sold it after 2 years claiming, ''it just isn't worth it''.

Sailing, for most of us, is a passion, not a business. What price do you put
on that perfect sunny, breezy day out on the water, or a moonlit night sail,
or that secluded quiet anchorage watching the sun set?
Sensitive subject? Hell yes!


Scott Vernon
Plowville PA __/)__/)__


It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a
very logical, sensible, and relevant question. According to your
"logic", if I spend $30K to $40K on a boat and it turns out that I can
only sail the boat two or three times a year, but if on one of those
trips I see a moonlit night, or experience a sunny breeze on the water,
it's all worth it? Maybe, but I can charter a number of different boats
of various sizes for a few hundred dollars and see all the moonlit
nights and sunny days and secluded anchorage's I want to.

Incidentally, please don't quote me as saying what I didn't say. What I
said was: IF NEARLY ALL owners of such boats find that they don't
continue to sail their boats as often as they thought when they bought
them, and IF, in fact, they are only able to get out very infrequently,
perhaps I should take this into consider as ONE FACTOR, among OTHERS,
when looking at boats. Please note: ONE FACTOR AMONG OTHERS. You may
think that I have a problem in making a decision and going ahead with
it. Not at all. But in this case, I have only been looking at boats for
about two weeks. Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so
the boat has to be appealing to her as well.

In other words, before committing $30-$40K, plus future maintenance,
dock fees, insurance, etc., to this interest (which in my case is one of
many interests), it seems only reasonable to consider the experience of
others when going down the same path. I'm not questioning chasing a
dream and looking for those sunny days or moonlit nights, but that
doesn't mean that I should make precipitous decisions or spend this
kind of money irrationally (if, in fact, it's probably the case that I
won't get what I expect to get from the boat) that could otherwise go to
a number of other worthwhile purposes. - Like, as one example, helping
children who would otherwise starve to death or die of dysentery, etc.

Jim

Jim,
Maybe you had best charter. You're looking upon buying a boat as =
purchasing a thing, rather than an experience. Maybe you should set =
your sites lower and buy a small sailboat that is inexpensive so that =
you can start from scratch and develop the experience...

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

katysails wrote:
Jim,
Maybe you had best charter. You're looking upon buying a boat as purchasing a thing, rather than an experience. Maybe you should set your sites lower and buy a small sailboat that is inexpensive so that you can start from scratch and develop the experience...


Like a new Mac 26M for example? As was discussed in the earlier string,
one option would be to buy a small boat and continue to charter larger
boats from time to time.

Jim

Him asked: Like a new Mac 26M for example?

NO! Don't nuy crap! I thought you were trying to be fiscally =
responsible???? Find an old, well-kept Catalina or O'day, or Pearson or =
Erikson....Don't ever buy new, the depreciation is horrendous...and you =
have to put all the "stuff" on yourself....get a boat that someone else =
has already outfitted....(stay away from yellow Coronado's with mauve =
interiors, though...you'll never resell it)=20

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Jim Cate wrote:
It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a
very logical, sensible, and relevant question.

Well, in that case, you should NOT buy a boat. It is an inherently
illogical thing to do, and will lead to irrecoverable expenditures of money.

The ONLY reason to buy a boat is that one enjoys sailing (or some other
on-water pastime) so much that the expense is worth it. Once you get
over this hurdle, that is the time to start thinking about which
particular boat to buy. However you are still fiddling around in the
starting gate, not sure if you want to run or not...


... Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so
the boat has to be appealing to her as well.

In that case, the odds against you are astronomical. Very very few women
enjoy sailing... and a big reason for that is the way most men act on
boats. If your wife has not liked sailing up to now, expecting her to
change is downright stupid.

I married a woman who not only loved to sail, but owned a boat herself.
However, I'm a very lucky man.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

Jim Cate wrote:

It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a
very logical, sensible, and relevant question.


Well, in that case, you should NOT buy a boat. It is an inherently
illogical thing to do, and will lead to irrecoverable expenditures of
money.

The ONLY reason to buy a boat is that one enjoys sailing (or some other
on-water pastime) so much that the expense is worth it. Once you get
over this hurdle, that is the time to start thinking about which
particular boat to buy. However you are still fiddling around in the
starting gate, not sure if you want to run or not...


Perhaps. But I've only been looking for a few weeks.

... Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so the boat
has to be appealing to her as well.


In that case, the odds against you are astronomical. Very very few women
enjoy sailing... and a big reason for that is the way most men act on
boats. If your wife has not liked sailing up to now, expecting her to
change is downright stupid.


So, if I get a boat, I should get one with autohelm and lines led aft?


I married a woman who not only loved to sail, but owned a boat herself.
However, I'm a very lucky man.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Jim Cate wrote:
So, if I get a boat, I should get one with autohelm and lines led aft?

Autopilot definitely. Just don't use it inappropriately. Lines led aft
is a matter of taste. I know a lot of single- and short-handed cruisers
who hate them. It does clutter up the cabin top.

Personally, I like lines led to the cockpit, when the arrangement is
clear and all leads are fair & workable. I think the objections arise
from either 1- set-ups with a lot of drag, or at least one line that
cannot be led fair to a winch, or 2- set-ups with at least one critical
line NOT led aft, so you have to go to the mast anyway... some times
multiple trips... now that is really dumb, but I've seen it a few times.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a
very logical, sensible, and relevant question. According to your
"logic", if I spend $30K to $40K on a boat and it turns out that I can
only sail the boat two or three times a year, but if on one of those
trips I see a moonlit night, or experience a sunny breeze on the water,
it's all worth it? Maybe, but I can charter a number of different boats
of various sizes for a few hundred dollars and see all the moonlit
nights and sunny days and secluded anchorage's I want to.

Incidentally, please don't quote me as saying what I didn't say. What I
said was: IF NEARLY ALL owners of such boats find that they don't
continue to sail their boats as often as they thought when they bought
them, and IF, in fact, they are only able to get out very infrequently,
perhaps I should take this into consider as ONE FACTOR, among OTHERS,
when looking at boats. Please note: ONE FACTOR AMONG OTHERS. You may
think that I have a problem in making a decision and going ahead with
it. Not at all. But in this case, I have only been looking at boats for
about two weeks. Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so
the boat has to be appealing to her as well.

In other words, before committing $30-$40K, plus future maintenance,
dock fees, insurance, etc., to this interest (which in my case is one of
many interests), it seems only reasonable to consider the experience of
others when going down the same path. I'm not questioning chasing a
dream and looking for those sunny days or moonlit nights, but that
doesn't mean that I should make precipitous decisions or spend this
kind of money irrationally (if, in fact, it's probably the case that I
won't get what I expect to get from the boat) that could otherwise go to
a number of other worthwhile purposes. - Like, as one example, helping
children who would otherwise starve to death or die of dysentery, etc.

Jim

If all you want to do is figure out how often the "average" boat owner uses
his boat, hang out at the marina. As someone else put it (Don Casey)

"sailing is a leisure time activity. It should require only discretionary
income, and not all of that. Maybe if you think you had the right boat, YOU
would spend every free minute on the water. The odds are against you. Take a
walk through any marina on a perfect Saturday and compare the number of
empty slips to the number with boats still tied in them. I assure you that
the owners of all those boats intended to use them very weekend, certainly
every sunny weekend. What happened?

Reality. A sunny weekend is also perfect for tennis. Or golf. Or a cookout
with friends. Or working on the lawn. Or a drive to Grandma's. There are
also concerts and weddings, sporting event and sales. And there are weekends
when it is rainy, or cold, or you just don't want to do anything."

The name of the book is "This Old Boat", pretty good reading though I'll
admit I might not ever take on the projects he covers in this book, the
first part talks about boat selection and even the justification for owning.
I own because I want to be able to sail whenever I fell like it. I took up
racing last season (crewing on someone else's boat) and probably logged more
miles under the keel of his boat than my own, to the point where I had
thoughts about selling MY boat. Why didn't I? I still want to own my own
boat, period. It makes no sense on a financial basis, but it's my money
right? Chartering as an alternative to ownership? If you OWN(no lien) your
own boat, one weeklong bareboat charter to a nice destination like the
Caribbean will equal or surpass my total annual expenses associated with
boat ownership. The bottom line, owning a sailboat is not a "rational"
decision. Might be more rational to purchase a used boat rather than new
one, but you can't "justify" the expense. Just something you either do or
don't, like a lot of things in life. Just my $2.
John Cairns

John Cairns wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

It may be a stupid question in your opinion, but in my opinion, it's a
very logical, sensible, and relevant question. According to your
"logic", if I spend $30K to $40K on a boat and it turns out that I can
only sail the boat two or three times a year, but if on one of those
trips I see a moonlit night, or experience a sunny breeze on the water,
it's all worth it? Maybe, but I can charter a number of different boats
of various sizes for a few hundred dollars and see all the moonlit
nights and sunny days and secluded anchorage's I want to.

Incidentally, please don't quote me as saying what I didn't say. What I
said was: IF NEARLY ALL owners of such boats find that they don't
continue to sail their boats as often as they thought when they bought
them, and IF, in fact, they are only able to get out very infrequently,
perhaps I should take this into consider as ONE FACTOR, among OTHERS,
when looking at boats. Please note: ONE FACTOR AMONG OTHERS. You may
think that I have a problem in making a decision and going ahead with
it. Not at all. But in this case, I have only been looking at boats for
about two weeks. Also, I will probably need my wife's participation, so
the boat has to be appealing to her as well.

In other words, before committing $30-$40K, plus future maintenance,
dock fees, insurance, etc., to this interest (which in my case is one of
many interests), it seems only reasonable to consider the experience of
others when going down the same path. I'm not questioning chasing a
dream and looking for those sunny days or moonlit nights, but that
doesn't mean that I should make precipitous decisions or spend this
kind of money irrationally (if, in fact, it's probably the case that I
won't get what I expect to get from the boat) that could otherwise go to
a number of other worthwhile purposes. - Like, as one example, helping
children who would otherwise starve to death or die of dysentery, etc.

Jim


If all you want to do is figure out how often the "average" boat owner uses
his boat, hang out at the marina. As someone else put it (Don Casey)

"sailing is a leisure time activity. It should require only discretionary
income, and not all of that. Maybe if you think you had the right boat, YOU
would spend every free minute on the water. The odds are against you. Take a
walk through any marina on a perfect Saturday and compare the number of
empty slips to the number with boats still tied in them. I assure you that
the owners of all those boats intended to use them very weekend, certainly
every sunny weekend. What happened?

Reality. A sunny weekend is also perfect for tennis. Or golf. Or a cookout
with friends. Or working on the lawn. Or a drive to Grandma's. There are
also concerts and weddings, sporting event and sales. And there are weekends
when it is rainy, or cold, or you just don't want to do anything."

The name of the book is "This Old Boat", pretty good reading though I'll
admit I might not ever take on the projects he covers in this book, the
first part talks about boat selection and even the justification for owning.
I own because I want to be able to sail whenever I fell like it. I took up
racing last season (crewing on someone else's boat) and probably logged more
miles under the keel of his boat than my own, to the point where I had
thoughts about selling MY boat. Why didn't I? I still want to own my own
boat, period. It makes no sense on a financial basis, but it's my money
right? Chartering as an alternative to ownership? If you OWN(no lien) your
own boat, one weeklong bareboat charter to a nice destination like the
Caribbean will equal or surpass my total annual expenses associated with
boat ownership. The bottom line, owning a sailboat is not a "rational"
decision. Might be more rational to purchase a used boat rather than new
one, but you can't "justify" the expense. Just something you either do or
don't, like a lot of things in life. Just my $2.
John Cairns


Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I have ordered two books by Reese
Palley that discuss his thoughts on sailing solo and his enjoyment of
sailing even in his senior years.

Jim

If you're trying to decide between buying a boat or feeding your children,
you should give the kids up and buy a boat. They'll be better off.

Sv

"Jim Cate" wrote
won't get what I expect to get from the boat) that could otherwise go to
a number of other worthwhile purposes. - Like, as one example, helping
children who would otherwise starve to death