have blue
 

JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time. somebody should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3 hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at 144 Volts, or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time. somebody should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3 hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

ah, I forgot about Perpetual Motion drives. Thanks for reminding me.

However, using electric motors that can regenerate through the propeller is
viable and is being done today.

no, it isn't.

Ahh yep it is Jocks.
http://solomontechnologies.com/Solom...allations.html




Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

have blue
 

Jeff Morris wrote:
Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at 144 Volts, or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


I'm still pretty skeptical, 3 kW is neary 5 Hp, allowing for some losses
it's going to be equivalent to stapping a 5 horse outboard to your bow
and run it full throttle trying to push the boat back. This might have
a significant impact on performance, speed wise, no?

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

jon, I have been hearing that very same story regarding fuel cells since I was
in junior high school in the 50's.

let's see when they arrive on the market.

hey're getting competitive quickly. Another few years and
it'll make sense for most boats to go this way. Fossil fuels
are a stupid solution.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Costs are going to get competitive over time

sure they are. in the 25th century, or by the 29th century for sure, if
not by
the year 4,000.

Even when you include a
small genset for the "diesel-electric" approach there's a big win in the
long
term "total cost of investment."

*if* total cost of investment means total cost of investment the breakeven
point may never be reached.

but keep hoping and praying.

have blue
 

joony, do you have stock in yet another fuel cell company?

Go away. You're stupid and boring.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
But the elect. motor/gen. sounds ideal if the costs
could be competitive.

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

didn't make it to fuel cells at this point, though it has been "nearly here"
for a couple decades.

If it works so extremely well for heavy, small volume welding bottle tanks why
hasn't it caught in the much more profitable market of fuel cells?

Excactly, as for 'honeycomb', I believe you're thinking of metal hydride
storage,
as is used for acetylene bottles, I think it's a well proven technology.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

oh, I see why you didn't understand. you didn't know that watts = hp. such a
pity.

Also you seem unable to comprehend that ~750 watts put into a battery bank for
one hour gives back ~hp per hour, less inefficiencies.

don't worry, just go with the flow.

oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time. somebody should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3 hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for about 4 hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor back using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20 hours after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at 144 Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time. somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3 hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

The was with a 47 foot, 20,000 pound catamaran doing over 9 knots in a 20+
breeze, with two of the 12hp electric wheels. Your mileage may vary.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Jeff Morris wrote:
Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at 144 Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


I'm still pretty skeptical, 3 kW is neary 5 Hp, allowing for some losses
it's going to be equivalent to stapping a 5 horse outboard to your bow
and run it full throttle trying to push the boat back. This might have
a significant impact on performance, speed wise, no?

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

JAXAshby wrote:

oh, I see why you didn't understand. you didn't know that watts = hp. such a
pity.

Very good Jax, write that watts = hp-hrs in one post, then write that watts = hp
in another when it's pointed out to you that watts and hp are both units of power,
brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

JAXAshby wrote:

didn't make it to fuel cells at this point, though it has been "nearly here"
for a couple decades.

If it works so extremely well for heavy, small volume welding bottle tanks why
hasn't it caught in the much more profitable market of fuel cells?


I believe the poblem lies in the rate at which the gas can be extracted/stored,
this is a function of the surface area of the hydride, for large fuel cells used for
transportation functions you can't get enough gas to feed the fuel cell during periods
of heavy demand.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

but still ... 5 hp drag on the boat. that is a lot.

The was with a 47 foot, 20,000 pound catamaran doing over 9 knots in a 20+
breeze, with two of the 12hp electric wheels. Your mileage may vary.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Jeff Morris wrote:
Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real blunder
is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at 144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


I'm still pretty skeptical, 3 kW is neary 5 Hp, allowing for some losses
it's going to be equivalent to stapping a 5 horse outboard to your bow
and run it full throttle trying to push the boat back. This might have
a significant impact on performance, speed wise, no?

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

hey dum-dum, the context was clearly watts for hours, and compared to hp for
hours.

what word didn't you understand?

Very good Jax, write that watts = hp-hrs in one post, then write that watts =
hp
in another when it's pointed out to you that watts and hp are both units of
power,
brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32 hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to power the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4 hours of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing out of a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for about 4 hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20 hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at 144 Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time. somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3 hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

JAXAshby wrote:

hey dum-dum, the context was clearly watts for hours, and compared to hp for
hours.

what word didn't you understand?



Jax you would appear less of an idiot if you would learn to "Oops,
I made a small error" once in while.

I was you who wrote out a somewhat garble expression which had energy
on one side of an equals sign and power on the other, context has nothing to
do with it.

I'll post your words again so you can read them slowly:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3 hp-hours"

This statement is quite unequivical, it first states that the product of
current and volts and time is watts, wrong; it then states that watts are
equivelent to hp-hours (assuming a conversion factor), also wrong.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

ah, I see your problem now. when you read 1,728 watts stored you didn't
realize that if you took that energy back out you could get 2.3 hp back out for
one hour, or 0.23 hp for 10 hours, or 0.0023 hp for a thousand hours or 23 hp
for six minutes or 230 hp for 36 seconds, or 2300 hp for 3.6 seconds or 23000
hp for about 1/3 second.

All less inefficiencies, of course.

bax, you need to read more slowly, paying particular attention to content.

I'll post your words again so you can read them slowly:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3 hp-hours"

This statement is quite unequivical, it first states that the product of
current and volts and time is watts, wrong; it then states that watts are
equivelent to hp-hours (assuming a conversion factor), also wrong.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at the dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32 hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4 hours of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20 hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at 144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time. somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3 hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

I thought also the "energy density" was much worse as compared to gasoline.

I believe the poblem lies in the rate at which the gas can be
extracted/stored,
this is a function of the surface area of the hydride, for large fuel cells
used for
transportation functions you can't get enough gas to feed the fuel cell
during periods
of heavy demand.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

sounds like too long jax, re-do your math. Take a couple days, then get
back to us.

SV


"JAXAshby" wrote

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32 hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4 hours of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20 hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at 144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time. somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3 hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

okay, here's the math condensed.

173 days sailing needed to produce enough energy to motor 1 day.

sounds like too long jax, re-do your math. Take a couple days, then get
back to us.

SV


"JAXAshby" wrote

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

Regeneration will not provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply a
substantial part of the use.


even at the cost of 5 hp pushing backwards on the boat as you sail?

it seems to me to be a damned expensive way to move a boat. why not buy a
little Honda generator and drag a 55-gallon drum behind the boat. same net
effect, and cheaper, too.

have blue
 

If you don't want to regen, just run the genset - Its still more efficient than
a diesel engine . However, in the tradewinds many boats can generate a lot of
power without compromising speed.

This is obviously not the solution for everyone, however it is becoming viable
for some.

I can see this is all too complicated for you.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Regeneration will not provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply a
substantial part of the use.


even at the cost of 5 hp pushing backwards on the boat as you sail?

it seems to me to be a damned expensive way to move a boat. why not buy a
little Honda generator and drag a 55-gallon drum behind the boat. same net
effect, and cheaper, too.

have blue
 

How much sailing to motor for 15 minutes.


take a few days, if needed.

SV

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
okay, here's the math condensed.

173 days sailing needed to produce enough energy to motor 1 day.

sounds like too long jax, re-do your math. Take a couple days, then get
back to us.

SV


"JAXAshby" wrote

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

Poor jaxie is off by a factor of around 30 or 40 because he assumed the
generator is the same one he uses on his bicycle.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
okay, here's the math condensed.

173 days sailing needed to produce enough energy to motor 1 day.

sounds like too long jax, re-do your math. Take a couple days, then get
back to us.

SV


"JAXAshby" wrote

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip. Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4 hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

The sailing school Bart worked at in Norwalk has a fleet of daysailors
(Ensigns?) that are fitting with small electric motors. They don't bother to
regen because they only need 10 minutes to get out and back into the marina.



"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip. Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4 hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

I almost forgot, I used to sail my 16'er on a 'no engine' reservoir and used
a trolling motor.

SV

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
The sailing school Bart worked at in Norwalk has a fleet of daysailors
(Ensigns?) that are fitting with small electric motors. They don't bother
to
regen because they only need 10 minutes to get out and back into the
marina.



"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to
leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip.
Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can
supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in
at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty
to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4
hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day
sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need
to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will
be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to
motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about
20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps
at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They
generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well
know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

no need to take "a few days". the answer is 173 * 15/60/24 = days sailing
needed.

How much sailing to motor for 15 minutes.


take a few days, if needed.

SV

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
okay, here's the math condensed.

173 days sailing needed to produce enough energy to motor 1 day.

sounds like too long jax, re-do your math. Take a couple days, then get
back to us.

SV


"JAXAshby" wrote

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

did you ever get out jr high?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jon, I have been hearing that very same story regarding fuel cells since I
was
in junior high school in the 50's.

let's see when they arrive on the market.

hey're getting competitive quickly. Another few years and
it'll make sense for most boats to go this way. Fossil fuels
are a stupid solution.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Costs are going to get competitive over time

sure they are. in the 25th century, or by the 29th century for sure,
if
not by
the year 4,000.

Even when you include a
small genset for the "diesel-electric" approach there's a big win in
the
long
term "total cost of investment."

*if* total cost of investment means total cost of investment the
breakeven
point may never be reached.

but keep hoping and praying.

have blue
 

Probably. At least I'm not a dinosaur in my thinking.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
joony, do you have stock in yet another fuel cell company?

Go away. You're stupid and boring.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
But the elect. motor/gen. sounds ideal if the costs
could be competitive.

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

no, I assumed the standard generator size that is normally belted to a prop to
produce amps, the one that steals about 1/3 hp from the boat speed.

you, on the other hand jeffies, assumed a generator that steals about 5 hp from
the boat speed.

I figure now you didn't then know what 3 KW means, so now you are trying to run
around in circles until you turn into butter.

Poor jaxie is off by a factor of around 30 or 40 because he assumed the
generator is the same one he uses on his bicycle.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
okay, here's the math condensed.

173 days sailing needed to produce enough energy to motor 1 day.

sounds like too long jax, re-do your math. Take a couple days, then get
back to us.

SV


"JAXAshby" wrote

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

let's see. 2 22 hp engines running a total of 25 minutes uses (with 100%
efficiency) uses approzimatedl 13,752.345627 watts. The boat produces (at 9
knots) about 3,000 watts.

This means that with 100% efficiency that sailboat only has to make 9 knots for
just under 5 hours.

And at 9 knots for 5 hours, the boat is 45 miles away.

howya gonna git home in 10 minutes in that boat?

Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip. Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4 hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

they also had shoreside batt chargers AND they didn't want to slow down their
boats by dragging a bucket behind.

The sailing school Bart worked at in Norwalk has a fleet of daysailors
(Ensigns?) that are fitting with small electric motors. They don't bother to
regen because they only need 10 minutes to get out and back into the marina.



"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip.
Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4
hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

However, in the tradewinds many boats can generate a lot of
power without compromising speed.

this is not generally the statement made by those who have towed water powered
gens behind their boats. In fact, most such sailor report it costs them about
a half knot or more boat speed to generate even 70 watts, let alone 3,000
watts.

have blue
 

why, yes I did.

did you ever get out jr high?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jon, I have been hearing that very same story regarding fuel cells since I
was
in junior high school in the 50's.

let's see when they arrive on the market.

hey're getting competitive quickly. Another few years and
it'll make sense for most boats to go this way. Fossil fuels
are a stupid solution.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Costs are going to get competitive over time

sure they are. in the 25th century, or by the 29th century for sure,
if
not by
the year 4,000.

Even when you include a
small genset for the "diesel-electric" approach there's a big win in
the
long
term "total cost of investment."

*if* total cost of investment means total cost of investment the
breakeven
point may never be reached.

but keep hoping and praying.

have blue
 

ah, I see. all it takes to make fuel cells viable is FAITH!!!

okay joony. anything you say.

Probably. At least I'm not a dinosaur in my thinking.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
joony, do you have stock in yet another fuel cell company?

Go away. You're stupid and boring.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
But the elect. motor/gen. sounds ideal if the costs
could be competitive.

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

ah, I forgot about Perpetual Motion drives. Thanks for reminding me.

Hardly perpetual motion.
The sails provide the horsepower to recharge for the most part.

no, "for the most part" nobody uses the technology/techniques suggested because
the **** don't work.

dragging buckets to gather water to pour on a watermill to turn the propeller
is still dragging buckets. It slows you down.

To the extent there is any gain at all, it is more costly, heavier, less
reliable than a gas or diesel fired engine.

have blue
 

The 47 foot, 20,000 lb. cat my numbers are from used two 12 horse engines. Running off a 10 kW
genset, it could make 7 knots. So your numbers are, typically, off by a factor of three.

Further why do you assume the boat sails out as far as it can, and then powers all the way back? Is
that what you normally do? Most people will sail back to their marine or inlet, etc. and then power
in.

--
-jeff

"JAXAshby" wrote in message ...
let's see. 2 22 hp engines running a total of 25 minutes uses (with 100%
efficiency) uses approzimatedl 13,752.345627 watts. The boat produces (at 9
knots) about 3,000 watts.

This means that with 100% efficiency that sailboat only has to make 9 knots for
just under 5 hours.

And at 9 knots for 5 hours, the boat is 45 miles away.

howya gonna git home in 10 minutes in that boat?

Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip. Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4 hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty