Jeff Morris wrote:

There's a long list of beautiful 26 footers.

Agreed. Here are some of my faves

Trying to find a good picture of the S-boat, which I'd pick over the
Alerion by a slight margin...
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/membershipsframe.htm
http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/sitemapframe.htm

wait, here's a pretty good one... check out the tiny spinnaker and the
old fashioned boom vang
www.herreshoff.org/Tops/sboat.html

Then there's this one, which is a masterpiece, plus it's fast plus it's
trailerable... but it sure ain't cheap
http://www.hankhinckley.com/26top.html

Nice one... TransAtlantic capable, too
http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/i...ke/gallery.htm

Now for something completely different
http://www.geocities.com/Lindenberg26/l26photos.html

I think these boats are pretty, too... maybe not as pretty as a Shields
or an Atlantic or a Dragon, and not as fast as an Etchells, but ther are
proof that it is possible to have a pretty 26' boat
http://www.soling.com/Pictures.asp

Here's a view you rarely see
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~truesdel/ima...n.50.knots.gif

DSK

They must be quite expensive. I believe the 26s are $80K new.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
The 38 is on their website. On second thought, I'd rather have that one.

There was one at the AC boat show a few years back.
Simply stunning and getting very little attention against the Catalina and
Hunters. The one I was on had a tiller.

RB

Great Shots! I love the "S" boats. I would have included the Folkboat, but I
thought someone else had already mentioned it. And the Soling was also on my
short list, but without even a cuddy its strictly a daysailor. Beautiful shot
of the Soling in 50 knots. I actually had the experience of sailing one on the
Charles River in 45+ knots (max gust I think was 54). Definitely a handful!





"DSK" wrote in message
.. .


Jeff Morris wrote:

There's a long list of beautiful 26 footers.

Agreed. Here are some of my faves

Trying to find a good picture of the S-boat, which I'd pick over the
Alerion by a slight margin...
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/membershipsframe.htm
http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/sitemapframe.htm

wait, here's a pretty good one... check out the tiny spinnaker and the
old fashioned boom vang
www.herreshoff.org/Tops/sboat.html

Then there's this one, which is a masterpiece, plus it's fast plus it's
trailerable... but it sure ain't cheap
http://www.hankhinckley.com/26top.html

Nice one... TransAtlantic capable, too
http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/i...ke/gallery.htm

Now for something completely different
http://www.geocities.com/Lindenberg26/l26photos.html

I think these boats are pretty, too... maybe not as pretty as a Shields
or an Atlantic or a Dragon, and not as fast as an Etchells, but ther are
proof that it is possible to have a pretty 26' boat
http://www.soling.com/Pictures.asp

Here's a view you rarely see
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~truesdel/ima...n.50.knots.gif

DSK

They must be quite expensive. I believe the 26s are $80K new.

I (Think) remember it was around 180 or 190K. It was so damned beautiful, 100%
worth it.

RB

Maybe instead of my next rental house.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com
"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
They must be quite expensive. I believe the 26s are $80K new.

I (Think) remember it was around 180 or 190K. It was so damned beautiful,
100%
worth it.

RB

$46k for that? I could by a fleet of Seidelmann 30s and start a charter co.
for that amount.

Scotty


"John Cairns" wrote in message
...
Scotty said size/price range. Though similar in size, the basic boat
package
for the Mast(sailaway, trailer, no motor) is almost $46k, which is nowhere
near the price of the 26X, which was priced well under $20k for the
boat/trailer minus motor. IIRC, the 26M was priced well under $20k also.
John Cairns

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
When are you going to answer Scotty's question about what trailerable
boats of
comparable size & price to the old Mac26 sail better & have more room?

Didn't you catch John's post? There IS another boat that does all the
Mac26X
and M and it's a better boat to boot.

RB

Jeff Morris wrote:
Great Shots! I love the "S" boats. I would have included the Folkboat, but I
thought someone else had already mentioned it. And the Soling was also on my
short list, but without even a cuddy its strictly a daysailor. Beautiful shot
of the Soling in 50 knots. I actually had the experience of sailing one on the
Charles River in 45+ knots (max gust I think was 54). Definitely a handful!

One of my pet theories is that is a threshold of wind power where any
given boat becomes unmanageable. This occurs when the max righting
moment is just barely enough to hold the rig up against it's own
windage, and there cannot be any useful power developed. In some small
racing classes, this occurs anywhere between 25 and 45+ knots, and boats
vary widely in their behavior at this threshold. Some get balky (the
Lightning at about 35), and some just suddenly go berserk (the 470 at
about 40). Others cross the threshold more smoothly, and simply let you
know that you are less & less in charge.

The Soling seemed to me to be a thoroughbred in this regard. Never
sailed one at 40+ but in the 30s they are still workable, but you have
to think ahead and they let you know that you're flirting with something
BIG. At an Olympic class regatta many moons ago, we took the 470 out on
a day of 45 - 50 knot winds, and the 470 would only go downwind (mostly
flipped). One of the few times I've had to be rescued. A couple of the
Soling guys went out and blasted back and forth, most of them tore sails
and one nearly sunk. There are reports of Solings going down, nowadays I
think they have airbag flotation.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

John Cairns wrote:
"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jim Cate wrote:



John Cairns wrote:


The new boat is probably only slightly less of a pig under sail than
the old
boat, if you want to verify this, I'm sure you'll find at least one Mac
broker that has an M in stock and will be happy to take you out for a
test
sail. I have one of the NE phrf lists, it rates this boat(26X) at 216
which
is probably charitable. You do the math. If it is indeed 20 to 30%

faster

than the old model, what would it's rating be?
John Cairns



John,

I suspect that you don't have much interest in the facts, but the 26X IS
the "old" model. The "new" model is the 26M. In other words, your stats
are either six years out of date or bass-ass-backwards.

Jim

No responses to this note?

Jim


Yes, read the post carefully. I think everyone here knows that the 26M is
the "new" model. I bracket the new, because for all intents and purposes,
this is the same boat as the 26X, regardless of all the clever advertising
blurbs. These are the specs for the 26X, at least 6 years old.
http://old.cruisingworld.com/ssbk/macgr26x.htm

Your note, to which I referred, stated that:

The new boat is probably only slightly less of a pig under sail than the
old boat, if you want to verify this, I'm sure you'll find at least one
Mac broker that has an M in stock and will be happy to take you out for
a test sail. I have one of the NE phrf lists, it rates THIS boat(26X) at
216 which is probably charitable. You do the math. If it is indeed 20 to
30% faster than the old model, what would it's rating be?
John Cairns

From your own note, your new NE phrf list rates THIS BOAT (the 26x) at
216.......... However, the NEW boat is the 26m, not the 26X. Also, the
new boat isn't just the old boat "for all intents and purposes" with
some "subtle changes." In fact, the hull is completely new, an
incorporates a bow section having a deep V design of 15 degrees, as
compared with the flatter, 8-degree hull of the 26X model. Secondly,
the boat incorporates a vertically displaceable dagger board instead of
the old pivotable centerboard. Accordingly, the 5-foot, 16" high
centerboard trunk that extended aft of the pivot point of the
centerboard in the X model is no longer necessary, and is therefore
eliminated, such that the contour of the hull aft of the dagger board
doesn't include the 16" recess or trunk. Other changes include an
additional layer of fiberglass and roving in the lower hull, softer
corners at the transom, etc. The mast is 2' higher than on the X model,
and the ballast is no longer an exclusively water ballast, but instead,
includes 300 lb.. of permanent ballast.

ONCE AGAIN, I'm not saying that these changes have solved all potential
deficiencies in the old models, or that the new boat sails or powers
superbly. But there can be no question that the M model incorporates
major, substantive changes, has an entirely different hull, and is not
the same boat as the previous models. As previously noted, I'm not
asking for acquiescence or agreement, I'm asking for some basic
INTELLECTUAL HONESTY in the discussion. - That would include your
admitting that you were wrong in stating that there are only "cosmetic"
differences between the new M boat and the older models. - A 15-degree
Hull IS NOT the same thing as a substantially flat, 8-degree hull.

As for your suggestion that I find a dealer with the new model in stock
who would be "happy" to take me out for a test sail, I haven't found
one. - Most of them tell me that the new model is in such demand and
scarce supply that they can't even keep one in stock for display. Of
course, I doubt that the owner of the 34-foot Cal I'm also looking at
would let me take that boat for a test sail either. - That's why I
posted my questions on this ng in the first place.

Jim





Now compare and contrast these numbers to the "new" 26M
http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/sa...fications.html

Hmm. Interesting. Roger must be the greatest NA in history if he got boat A
to go faster than boat B simply by making a few subtle design changes to the
underbody. But I digress. You think that it(26M) is a boat worthy of your
serious consideration, why don't you take one out for a test sail and give
us all of the details. I noticed that you never answered MY question, and it
wasn't rhetorical, it was a serious suggestion. And the other question was
serious also. If the (OLD) 26X is rated at 216 and the (NEW) 26M is 20-30%
faster (make it easier, say it's 20% faster) what would it's rating be?
Think carefully before you answer. And no, we won't discuss how fast or
stable or maneuverable it is under power, because, after all, this is a
SAILING newsgroup, if we really concerned about how our boats handled under
power we would own POWERBOATS.

John Cairns

This note concerns the issue of intellectual honesty.

As a follow-up to and summary of the many responses generated by this
question, several hundreds of usually negative, usually dogmatic
statements were posted regarding the MacGregor 26M, but none were posted
by anyone who had actually sailed the 26M. Also, as far as I can
determine, none were posted by anyone who had even spoken to someone who
had actually sailed the boat. (Correct me if I missed one.)
Additionally, there was a long string of comments by posters who had
obviousaly confused various previous MacGregor boats with the current
26M (which incorporates major, substantive changes from the previous
models). Additionally, most writers were not willing, even when
corrected by knowledgeable members of the group, to admit that they were
talking about another boat and didn't actually know what the 26M entailed.

In other words, as a summary of this long and convoluted series of
pontifications, few participants had the intellectual honesty to admit
that they really didn't know what the hell they were talking about in
the first place. - Of course, this doesn't meant that the 26M is a great
boat. - But it does say something about the character and (lack of)
intellectual honesty of many who posted under this subject string.

Jim


Jim Cate wrote:


I'm considering the new MacGregor 26M for use in the Galveston-Houston
area and would like to get comments from anyone who has seen or sailed
on the boat. Or, anyone else.

For sailing and motoring in this area, the MacGregor seems to have some
advantages. - I'm aware of the largely negative comments on this ng
regarding the MacGregor line. However, for the intended use, e.g.,
sailing and motoring with small kids (grandchildren), fishing, and doing
some limited coastal cruising, the Mac 26M has the advantage that it
will motor to a desired destination at around 24 mph and can therefore
get to a desired sail or fishing area, and return, much more quickly
than a fixed keel boat. This tends to minimize the "are we home yet"
issue with small kids and non-sail-type guests. Also, in view of the
hundreds of square miles of shallow bay waters in our area, the boat's
ability to anchor in 15 inches of water, or to beach at one of the
islands, would be an obvious advantage. (The 40-foot Valiant, although
a great boat under sail offshore, was limited to around 8-10 knots under
motor or sail. So, it took us five hours to get from the Kemah marina to
the gulf, and we had to be careful to keep a sharp watch on the depth
finder.)

OK, the comparison is admittedly somewhat ludicrous. For the uses
anticipated, however, the Mac may be a practical and fun choice. Also,
the new "M" model seems to include some substantive improvements. - It
now has both lead and the removable water ballast, has a fin keel (which
I'm assuming may help in pointing), and a structural keel housing
extending vertically from the deck to the ballast area. The boat
reportedly includes additional fiberglass layers and other structural
and ergonomic improvements derived from their experience over the years.
As to it's sailing abilities, there is a video on the Mac web site
comparing the 26M and the 26X under sail, and the new model is clearly
much faster. (Assuming they didn't stage the race or doctor the video.)
With a large genoa, it looks like it might be a fast sailing boat; it
can reportedly plane under sail.

A further consideration is that, if I bought the MacGregor, I would
still have the opportunity to charter a wide variety of heavier boats
kept under charter in our area. Conversely, I couldn't purchase a
conventional fixed-keel boat and also charter a boat similar to the Mac.
(I'm not into motor boats, or staying out in the Texas sun for hours on
a powered fishing boat.) A negative factor is that the new Mac is
fairly expensive when fully equiped, comparable in price to many used 30
- 32-foot boats.

Comments from anyone regarding the sailing and motoring characteristics
of the new 26M would be appreciated.

Jim

Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years. Your
analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if a
product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it will
take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company might
then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the market
for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their rate of
repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you are
planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a bad
reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now quit
wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
sail.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein