"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


wrote:

Query whether you've actually verified that the guesstimated
conversion price to which you refer is realistic/reliable

Nope. I thought I might get some helpful information from sailers on
the ng who had looked into this already, so that I would have some
knowledte of what's involved and what price ranges to expect. - That's
why I posted the note in the first place.

It sounds like you don't recognise helpful suggestions when you get them.




Again, my note requested suggestions and advice as to the best way to
approach the matter, and whether kits were available for the project. I
don't know the best way to approach the matter, or whether it is one
that is commonly done within the price ranges mentioned, and that's why
I posted the inquiry in the first place.


Wrong. You posted your *e*nquiry because you were hoping that people would
tell you that your preferred course of action was correct.

Unfortunately, the idea of converting a 30 ft boat to wheel steering, is of
such limited appeal, that you are unlikely to find much support among
sailors. This is because a tiller is much better than a wheel. The only
reason that bigger (35ft+) boats have wheels is that tillers become
impossible to use.



Further, since you don't say anything whatever about

- the equipment/condition of the particular boat
you've looked at (other than that it is designed
with and has a tiller), or


I have a strong preference for wheel steering. I can't explain exactly
why, but I don't like the idea of me and my guests having to jump out of
the way of a long tiller extenting into the cockpit

I have a gut feeling that you haven't sailed very much. If my assumption is
correct, then you should consider using the boat for a year before worrying
about the conversion.



snip
a tiller. Although I'm aware of pros and cons of the two systems, there
are MANY MORE POTENTIAL BUYERS of a 30-foot sailboat having wheel
steering.

That surprises me.




- whether you even care (one way or t'other)
whether if (when?) you sell or trade the wheel
instead of tiller will/won't enhance the liklihood
of a later sale by you or whether you probably
will/won't recoup any of the the dollar cost of conversion,

Your opinion that having wheel steering rather than a tiller won't
enhance the likelihood of a later sale if flat-out wrong. You are, of
course, entitled to your opinion. But in our area, in which there are
lots of relatively new sailboats in the water and at the boat shows, and
in which there are lots of boats for sale, a tiller would be a big
problem in marketing the boat. .


you make it difficult for anyone to offer any (for _you_) probably
reliable suggestions.


Well, if it's too difficult, don't waste any more of your time answering
it.. - However, if you read the note and actually answered the
questions asked, you would find that they really aren't that difficult.

If the answers are so easy, then why can't you answer the questions
yourself?


Arguably the most signficant element of your posting/query is less
what (if any) brand of steering wheel to install (or not), or any
element of sailing, as such, but rather that it suggests the
desirability of your reading and thinking carefully about the issues
raised (and, perhaps, the books reviewed in) the March 1, 2004 issue
of "The New Yorker" magazine re. choice-making:
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/art/?040301crbo_books


Read all the books? Great ide!!! - I'll do exactly that, when I get
time to do it. - - But why shouldn't I make use of the internet and get
answers to my immediate questions first, before I go further?

Because you are very unlikely to get answers that agree with your
preconceptions.

As you only want to hear ideas that concur with your own, I think that you
would be better off using Google, than asking on Usenet. With Google, you
can choose which answers you want to read. With Usenet, you are going to
have to deal with real opinions. If you cannot accept these without
complaining, then you are not really suited to social interaction.


For
example, what's involved in making such a conversion; does anyone have
experience in such a project, and what were their experience; and, are
there any kits that would simplify the job. In other words, if such a
project is not practicable, or if the costs are far more than the dollar
range I mentioned, why waste my time in reviewing the characteristics of
the boat (particularly since I have already sailed on similar Cals
several times.)

I doubt that anybody here has made such a conversion. Most people here are
relatively experienced, and they will view a wheel as a necessary evil on
larger boats.



Regards


Donal
--

Donal wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


wrote:

Query whether you've actually verified that the guesstimated
conversion price to which you refer is realistic/reliable

Nope. I thought I might get some helpful information from sailers on
the ng who had looked into this already, so that I would have some
knowledte of what's involved and what price ranges to expect. - That's
why I posted the note in the first place.


It sounds like you don't recognise helpful suggestions when you get them.

Actually, I do recognize helpful suggestions when I get them. In fact, I
posted the query on another newsgroup and received several helpful
responses, including discussions of actual experiences in making such
conversions.


Again, my note requested suggestions and advice as to the best way to
approach the matter, and whether kits were available for the project. I
don't know the best way to approach the matter, or whether it is one
that is commonly done within the price ranges mentioned, and that's why
I posted the inquiry in the first place.



Wrong. You posted your *e*nquiry because you were hoping that people would
tell you that your preferred course of action was correct.


Interesting. In addition to your sailing expertise, you are also a mind
reader. In fact, however, I wasn't "hoping" for agreement one way or
another.

Unfortunately, the idea of converting a 30 ft boat to wheel steering, is of
such limited appeal, that you are unlikely to find much support among
sailors. This is because a tiller is much better than a wheel. The only
reason that bigger (35ft+) boats have wheels is that tillers become
impossible to use.

I'm aware of advantages of tiller steering. I'm also aware that lots of
sailors interested in boats of this size don't like it.


Further, since you don't say anything whatever about

- the equipment/condition of the particular boat
you've looked at (other than that it is designed
with and has a tiller), or


I have a strong preference for wheel steering. I can't explain exactly
why, but I don't like the idea of me and my guests having to jump out of
the way of a long tiller extenting into the cockpit


I have a gut feeling that you haven't sailed very much. If my assumption is
correct, then you should consider using the boat for a year before worrying
about the conversion.

Is your "gut feeling" related in some respect to your "mind reading"
talents? While I'm sure
there are more experienced sailors than I on the ng, I have in fact
sailed on boats including Endeavor, Valiant, Pearson, ODay, Cal,
Catalinas, and others, and received training from the Annapolis Sailing
School and others. My favorite was a 40-foot Valiant with cutter rig.
Again, I'm sure there are others with more experience on the ng, which
is why I asked the questions.




snip

a tiller. Although I'm aware of pros and cons of the two systems, there
are MANY MORE POTENTIAL BUYERS of a 30-foot sailboat having wheel

steering.

That surprises me.



- whether you even care (one way or t'other)
whether if (when?) you sell or trade the wheel
instead of tiller will/won't enhance the liklihood
of a later sale by you or whether you probably
will/won't recoup any of the the dollar cost of conversion,


In your opinion, of course.


Your opinion that having wheel steering rather than a tiller won't
enhance the likelihood of a later sale if flat-out wrong. You are, of
course, entitled to your opinion. But in our area, in which there are
lots of relatively new sailboats in the water and at the boat shows, and
in which there are lots of boats for sale, a tiller would be a big
problem in marketing the boat. .


you make it difficult for anyone to offer any (for _you_) probably
reliable suggestions.


I'm happy to consider any suggestions offered with a tiny grain of
courtesy, and an acknowledgment that there just might be two sides to an
issue. But I happen to have an aversion to cynics, snobs, and "experts"
who seem to find satisfaction in putting others down.



Well, if it's too difficult, don't waste any more of your time answering
it.. - However, if you read the note and actually answered the
questions asked, you would find that they really aren't that difficult.


If the answers are so easy, then why can't you answer the questions
yourself?

I said that the questions asked in my note were easy, meaning that they
were rather straightforward and could be answered simply by someone with
relevant experience. - For example, I asked whether anyone knew whether
conversion kits (not lists of parts) are available for such work, and
whether anyone had experience relative to such conversions. The reason
I asked the questions, of course, is that I didn't know the answers.


Arguably the most signficant element of your posting/query is less
what (if any) brand of steering wheel to install (or not), or any
element of sailing, as such, but rather that it suggests the
desirability of your reading and thinking carefully about the issues
raised (and, perhaps, the books reviewed in) the March 1, 2004 issue
of "The New Yorker" magazine re. choice-making:
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/art/?040301crbo_books


Read all the books? Great ide!!! - I'll do exactly that, when I get
time to do it. - - But why shouldn't I make use of the internet and get
answers to my immediate questions first, before I go further?


Because you are very unlikely to get answers that agree with your
preconceptions.

My only preconceptions were that I had been told that the charter
company wouldn't accept such a boat with tiller steering but that they
would be happy to have it if the steering were converted to wheel
steering, and that they further said that such conversions could be
performed for approximately $1,000 to $1,500. From these statements, I
had concluded that, since I wanted to leave the boat with the charter
company, it might be a good idea to investigate further the practicality
and costs of such conversions. I had no opinion whatsoever as to whether
they were correct in telling me that they thought the Cal 30 could be
successfully converted for this price.


As you only want to hear ideas that concur with your own, I think that you
would be better off using Google, than asking on Usenet. With Google, you
can choose which answers you want to read. With Usenet, you are going to
have to deal with real opinions. If you cannot accept these without
complaining, then you are not really suited to social interaction.

You certainly are under no obligation to respond to my notes. Let me
assure you, however, that I can deal with anything you or nospam dish
out. - Try me.


For
example, what's involved in making such a conversion; does anyone have
experience in such a project, and what were their experience; and, are
there any kits that would simplify the job. In other words, if such a
project is not practicable, or if the costs are far more than the dollar
range I mentioned, why waste my time in reviewing the characteristics of
the boat (particularly since I have already sailed on similar Cals
several times.)


I doubt that anybody here has made such a conversion. Most people here are
relatively experienced, and they will view a wheel as a necessary evil on
larger boats.

Interesting. That would suggest (as I suspect you intended to infer)
that my preference for wheel steering derives only from the fact that I
must be relatively inexperienced and ignorant of the advantages of a
tiller system. - But it would also suggest that "nospam" is relatively
inexperienced, since he also stated that he preferred wheel steering. -
Did you intend to include both me AND nospam in your "inexperienced,
ignorant novice sailor" classification? However, as stated in my note,
the issue of relevance relative to the conversion of the particular boat
in question was not whether experienced sailors would prefer one or the
other steering system. It was that most potential charterers and
purchasers of such boats seem to prefer wheel steering, and that the
charter company directly informed me that they would not accept the boat
unless a wheel steering system was installed on it, in which case they
would be happy to have it.



Regards


Donal
--

Unfortunately, the idea of converting a 30 ft boat to wheel steering, is of
such limited appeal, that you are unlikely to find much support among
sailors. This is because a tiller is much better than a wheel.


Advantage of a tiller.
Simple system with fewer parts to fail.
Superior feel, especially good for racing.

Advantage of a wheel
Superior ergonomics
Less fatiguing to use
Easier for children and novices
Doesn't sweep cockpit
Allows for close mounting of instruments
Engine controls at fingertips
Lock off cabability a big plus
For many sailors, it's simply more fun
Allows multiple steering positions for helmsman

The idea that "sailors" won't "support" a wheel conversion on a 30 footer makes
little sense. A wheel steered boat is pretty much a "must" for any kind of
charter system. Nearly every 30 footer in production has a wheel, unless they
are heavily slanted to racing. I just think a better approach is to find a
vessel that was wheel steered from the get-go and avoid a major project.

RB

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
snip
It was that most potential charterers and
purchasers of such boats seem to prefer wheel steering, and that the
charter company directly informed me that they would not accept the boat
unless a wheel steering system was installed on it, in which case they
would be happy to have it.

Hmmm.

I'm surprised at the attitude of the charter company. I must say that I am
also surprised that any charter company would consider putting a 22 y/o boat
on their books. Do they offer any guarantees about the level of income that
you can expect?


Regards


Donal
--

I must say that I am
also surprised that any charter company would consider putting a 22 y/o boat
on their books.

There are about a zillion small charter outfits that employ older boats, as
long as they're clean and reliable. There's one that operates out of my club.
They are always looking to make charter agreements with folks. There's a mid
80's catalina 34 that I know of that is in the program and it was run badly
aground last season by two couples who decided to do a lot of drinking. When
they asked me if we'd consider the charter deal we said no-way!

RB

Bobsprit wrote:
I must say that I am
also surprised that any charter company would consider putting a 22 y/o boat
on their books.

There are about a zillion small charter outfits that employ older boats, as
long as they're clean and reliable. There's one that operates out of my club.
They are always looking to make charter agreements with folks. There's a mid
80's catalina 34 that I know of that is in the program and it was run badly
aground last season by two couples who decided to do a lot of drinking. When
they asked me if we'd consider the charter deal we said no-way!

RB

The charter company would be happy to have the boat if it were surveyed
and found to be in good, safe, fully operable condition. - My thought
regarding leaving it with the chareter company was that it would relieve
me of some of the problems involved in keeping up with maintenance,
oversight, paying marina fees, etc. (The boat was offered at around
$18,000 and reported as being in good working order with a good 11Hp
Yanmar diesel, but I didn't get into checking out what other upgrades
might be necessary.

In view of the advice against such a steering system convesion and the
accusation that I had already made my mind up in favor of the Cal before
posting the intial questions, I'm now considering another approach. -
That is, continue to charter boats in the 30-40 ft range when I can get
time off to do some serious cruising, but also purchasing one of the new
MacGregor 26M (their new model with deeper V-hull, dagger board, and a
partial lead/partial water ballast), for use in the Galveston bay area
and near shore coastal sailing. - In the Houston-Galveston area, we
have many square miles of bay waters that aren't deep enough for keel
sailboats, and I'm also interested in taking the grandchildren on
outings, swimming, fishing, etc.) - Since this is somewhat out of the
scope of the "Cal 30" question, I'll post another discussion topic.

Jim

I can get
time off to do some serious cruising, but also purchasing one of the new
MacGregor 26M (their new model with deeper V-hull, dagger board, and a
partial lead/partial water ballast),

Jim, you can do a LOT better than the 26M. It's not a very good sailing boat.
I strongly suggest more study/sailing time before you choose a boat.

Robert B.
C&C 32
NY

This is probably right. It's not as bad a boat as the X, but there are
a lot of others out there that are better. However, they do sell a lot
of them, if that's any kind of endorsement.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
I can get
time off to do some serious cruising, but also purchasing one of the new
MacGregor 26M (their new model with deeper V-hull, dagger board, and a
partial lead/partial water ballast),

Jim, you can do a LOT better than the 26M. It's not a very good sailing
boat.
I strongly suggest more study/sailing time before you choose a boat.

Robert B.
C&C 32
NY

Bobsprit wrote:
I can get
time off to do some serious cruising, but also purchasing one of the new
MacGregor 26M (their new model with deeper V-hull, dagger board, and a
partial lead/partial water ballast),

Jim, you can do a LOT better than the 26M. It's not a very good sailing boat.
I strongly suggest more study/sailing time before you choose a boat.

Robert B.
C&C 32
NY

I posted a further note, see "MacGregor 26-Valiant 40" below, outlining
what I see as advantages and disadvantages to the idea of (1) Chartering
boats in the 30-35 -foot range from time to time, and (2) Getting one
of the Mac 26M's for afternoon sails with our grandkids, or for fishing,
etc. The initial costs are about the same as used boats in the 30-foot
range, not including maintenance, dock fees, etc., but the available
sailing areas in this area (Kemah-Galveston bay) we are limited unless
you are willing to motor down to the gulf, which takes around five hours.

Jim

Jim Cate wrote in message ...
Donal wrote:

"Jim Cate"

Interesting. In addition to your sailing expertise, you are also a mind
reader. In fact, however, I wasn't "hoping" for agreement one way or
another.


Your new here Jim,

Donal is a mind reader and a Physic navigator!
Plus he English, which explains most of his weirdness!

Joe
MSV RedCloud