Navigation Question
 

Jax,

Shut the Hell up!! I'm talking to Nutsy ABOUT YOU. I am not talking to
you

Ole Thom

Navigation Question
 

To clarify .... You could very well be correct in that the average
sailor just used Latitudes and East/West, but I wouldn't be surprised to
find that many who traveled the longer ocean routes where there was a
great change in latitude and longitude during their transit would have
employed this ..... again, it would need some historical research to
confirm or deny.
My intent was to convey the overall time frame in the evolution of
celestial as we know it today.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message news:Hgz_b.5818
G Think you just pulled an "otn". I think it was extensively used

around 1800, but had fallen to a point of much less use by 1900.


You're right in the sense of "anyone who really needs to know the longitude, or
correct time, uses Lunar distances." However, I suspect that the vast majority
of mariners simply found their latitude, and went east or west from there.

It was only 30 years earlier the Captain Cook used Lunar Distances and was
hailed as a great surveyor for his accomplishments. His work was based on
Maskelyne's lunar distance methods which were published in 1762.

Navigation Question
 

JAXAshby wrote:

Commercial radio stations came on the air in 1921 (IIRC) and were required to
give their call sign, frequency and city every ten minutes specificly to aid
ships at sea in navigation. This radio required lasted (I believe) into the
1980's by which time it was more than thoroughly obsolete.



Are you talking about radio stations such as ABC in New York, or Marine
Radio Beacons?
Marine Radio Beacons are a different animal, though agreeably obsolete.
However, they are still (RDF) to be found on ships.

otn

Navigation Question
 

JAXAshby wrote:
otn, the info regarding KP and lunar distances came from a then recent graduate
of KP.

Interesting. KP (USMMA), may include it as a historical side note, but
to the best of my knowledge neither MMA's (Maine & Mass) teach it at
all, except in passing, not as a requirement, since it is not part of
the knowledge required for a license.... if taught, it would fall under
"Celestial", within the overall course on Navigation.

way before google, in fact before Sputnik I used to read encylopedias out of
curiosity.

as far as radios and knowing about required call sign frequency, I built a
genuine crystal set about the time the very first non-vacuum tube radios came
on the market.

the "time tick" did not come about, I believe, until about the same time as
commercial radio stations started broadcasting, in the early 1920's.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything as the time tick
was different from the RDF stations..... which in the Maritime world are
different from "commercial" stations.

RDF can be problematic re accuracy when at great distances from the stations
(plural) Loran and Decca needed closer proximity. GPS was developed by the US
Navy to aid in military navigation at sea.

Normally, RDF used by ships was employed by ships, closer to shore (not
always). All shore based radio nav aids have problems with range ...
Decca was always considered a short range system, Loran had greater
range and (I believe) Omega, the greatest.
I've used Loran as far South, as the Panama Canal (not always available).
The first commercial use of the Military's Satellites was called Sat
Nav. Positions were accurate, but not always available and sometimes the
wait for one required that you still maintain other methods, such as
celestial for navigation (From this fact, many of us realized how
accurate we could get with celestial .... we also found some errors).



celestial navigation is pretty useless most of the time, simply because of
cloud cover much of the time.


G See above. Every time I read that statement, I know I'm talking to
someone with limited experience with celestial, either in area or practice.

otn

Navigation Question
 

Thom Stewart wrote:

Doug,

The Navigator on the "Bounty" used moon time. That was a few years
before Harrison's Time piece.

It would be very, very interesting to hear the Jax's explanation of
taking the moon's sighting and the calculations into Longitude, don't
you think?

I dunno about interesting, it might be funny. Jax's claim to expertise
at celestial navigation seems to be based on the fact that he's a lunatic.

DSK

Navigation Question
 

the time tick was not practical until radio stations are capable of carrying
it.

In the original days, (US) radio stations could be up to 500,000 watts in
power. Such signals could at night carry well more than 1,000 miles. I seem
to recall that some Mexican stations were up to 1,000,000 watts.

Commercial radio stations were often used as RDF points (the call sign,
frequency, city identifier every ten minutes was specificly required because of
its capability for ships at sea), though (in the US) CG RDF stations were also
set up. At one point the FAA also maintained RDF stations across the country
for aircraft navigation.

Some sailors continued to has RDF gear aboard into the 1990's because such
equipment could catch shore radio stations at night and the crew could listen
to music.



I don't understand what this has to do with anything as the time tick
was different from the RDF stations..... which in the Maritime world are
different from "commercial" stations.

RDF can be problematic re accuracy when at great distances from the
stations
(plural) Loran and Decca needed closer proximity. GPS was developed by
the US
Navy to aid in military navigation at sea.

Normally, RDF used by ships was employed by ships, closer to shore (not
always). All shore based radio nav aids have problems with range ...
Decca was always considered a short range system, Loran had greater
range and (I believe) Omega, the greatest.
I've used Loran as far South, as the Panama Canal (not always available).
The first commercial use of the Military's Satellites was called Sat
Nav. Positions were accurate, but not always available and sometimes the
wait for one required that you still maintain other methods, such as
celestial for navigation (From this fact, many of us realized how
accurate we could get with celestial .... we also found some errors).



celestial navigation is pretty useless most of the time, simply because of
cloud cover much of the time.


G See above. Every time I read that statement, I know I'm talking to
someone with limited experience with celestial, either in area or practice.

otn

Navigation Question
 

So, do you think the radio stations also did that during WWII? I'd hate to
think that there were German subs getting lost at Coney Island!


I don't know if radio regs changed in WWII, but if they did if probably would
not have been because of German submarines. Radio waves don't penetrate water
more than about two inches. I do know at least one German sub was sunk in the
Potomac and one or many more in Long Island Sound. I don't know that any
German subs fired on the US mainland. Do know that at least one Japanese sub
fired on Seattle, with little damage.

Navigation Question
 

I was writing of your plain vanilla AM radio stations, such as KRLA, KSTP,
WCCO, WABC, etc. Marine RDF stations were stations operated (by I believe in
the US by the CG and FAA) specifically for ships at sea and later aircraft.
Best of my knowledge marine RDF stations operated in th same frequency range as
commercial AM radio stations.

Are you talking about radio stations such as ABC in New York, or Marine
Radio Beacons?
Marine Radio Beacons are a different animal, though agreeably obsolete.
However, they are still (RDF) to be found on ships.

otn

Navigation Question
 

felton, show a celestial nav course offered to the recreational sailor anywhere
in the country that includes Lunars.

Hell, until three days ago *you* had never even heard the term Lunar Distances,
and now you are claiming to be an expert.

Navigation Question... Jax's expertise on naval history
 

JAXAshby wrote:
.... I do know at least one German sub was sunk in the
Potomac and one or many more in Long Island Sound. I don't know that any
German subs fired on the US mainland. Do know that at least one Japanese sub
fired on Seattle, with little damage.

Hey Peter, is *this* funny enough that you'd un-killfile Jax?

Jax you owe me some workmen's comp, two people here in the shop just
fell on the floor and busted their guts laughing.

DSK