John Kerry & the Bitch
 

If anyone had the right to protest the war in Vietnam it was Kerry.

He did his part and earned the right to say what ever he wanted to
about the war. The man has my respect. And he was a boat man, that
gives him even more
respect from me.

However I can not understand why he would hang out with that bitch
that had no say, put American lives in danger, runied the moral of the
troops and provided aid to comfort to the enemey. I just wish my buddy
took her out when he had the chance. He had her lined up in the sights
of a Ma duce. When I saw her sitting on that commie anti aircraft gun
I was boiling mad!

You liberals may think that picture will not carry much weight, but
it will.

If Kerry publicly says he is ashamed to be in the same picture with
that bitch
I will vote for him in November. If he does not, I will vote for Bush.

Wanting to stop a war that our leaders would not properly fight was
ok. But to provide comfort and aid to the enemy is treason and
un-American. Jane should of been shot.

His actions after his service to our great country may sink his boat.

Capt. American

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Hey, lunatic..

Jane Fonda didn't even visit Hanoi until 2 years after that picture
was taken. Do you think Kerry is some sort of modern Nostradamus?
It didn't appear that he was "with" her. They were at the same event.

It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue, given who has the high ground here. Hint,
it aint Bush or Rush. Then again, if the Republicans could run a
successful smear campaign against John McCain, I guess anything is
possible.


On 10 Feb 2004 09:14:07 -0800,
(Capt.American) wrote:

If anyone had the right to protest the war in Vietnam it was Kerry.

He did his part and earned the right to say what ever he wanted to
about the war. The man has my respect. And he was a boat man, that
gives him even more
respect from me.

However I can not understand why he would hang out with that bitch
that had no say, put American lives in danger, runied the moral of the
troops and provided aid to comfort to the enemey. I just wish my buddy
took her out when he had the chance. He had her lined up in the sights
of a Ma duce. When I saw her sitting on that commie anti aircraft gun
I was boiling mad!

You liberals may think that picture will not carry much weight, but
it will.

If Kerry publicly says he is ashamed to be in the same picture with
that bitch
I will vote for him in November. If he does not, I will vote for Bush.

Wanting to stop a war that our leaders would not properly fight was
ok. But to provide comfort and aid to the enemy is treason and
un-American. Jane should of been shot.

His actions after his service to our great country may sink his boat.

Capt. American

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

He has the right to protest, but he doesn't have right to hang
out with whomever he wants... now that's quite a statement.

The likes of you would always vote for Bush and his kind. You
have no obligation to do otherwise, and I'm proud to say that
I'm nothing like you.

"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
If anyone had the right to protest the war in Vietnam it was Kerry.

He did his part and earned the right to say what ever he wanted to
about the war. The man has my respect. And he was a boat man, that
gives him even more
respect from me.

However I can not understand why he would hang out with that bitch
that had no say, put American lives in danger, runied the moral of the
troops and provided aid to comfort to the enemey. I just wish my buddy
took her out when he had the chance. He had her lined up in the sights
of a Ma duce. When I saw her sitting on that commie anti aircraft gun
I was boiling mad!

You liberals may think that picture will not carry much weight, but
it will.

If Kerry publicly says he is ashamed to be in the same picture with
that bitch
I will vote for him in November. If he does not, I will vote for Bush.

Wanting to stop a war that our leaders would not properly fight was
ok. But to provide comfort and aid to the enemy is treason and
un-American. Jane should of been shot.

His actions after his service to our great country may sink his boat.

Capt. American

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
If anyone had the right to protest the war in Vietnam it was Kerry.

snip

I'm not surprised that you are worried about Kerry.

He looks almost as thick as Bush.



Regards


Donal
--

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

felton wrote in message . ..
Hey, lunatic..

Jane Fonda didn't even visit Hanoi until 2 years after that picture
was taken. Do you think Kerry is some sort of modern Nostradamus?
It didn't appear that he was "with" her. They were at the same event.

It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue, given who has the high ground here. Hint,
it aint Bush or Rush. Then again, if the Republicans could run a
successful smear campaign against John McCain, I guess anything is
possible.

So you served in Vietnam like John Mc Cain & I did?

And you have any respect for anyone that would be in the same room as
that ****ing 2 bit **** Jane?

Do not think so.

Capt. American






On 10 Feb 2004 09:14:07 -0800,
(Capt.American) wrote:

If anyone had the right to protest the war in Vietnam it was Kerry.

He did his part and earned the right to say what ever he wanted to
about the war. The man has my respect. And he was a boat man, that
gives him even more
respect from me.

However I can not understand why he would hang out with that bitch
that had no say, put American lives in danger, runied the moral of the
troops and provided aid to comfort to the enemey. I just wish my buddy
took her out when he had the chance. He had her lined up in the sights
of a Ma duce. When I saw her sitting on that commie anti aircraft gun
I was boiling mad!

You liberals may think that picture will not carry much weight, but
it will.

If Kerry publicly says he is ashamed to be in the same picture with
that bitch
I will vote for him in November. If he does not, I will vote for Bush.

Wanting to stop a war that our leaders would not properly fight was
ok. But to provide comfort and aid to the enemy is treason and
un-American. Jane should of been shot.

His actions after his service to our great country may sink his boat.

Capt. American

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Bull****. Prove it.

"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
felton wrote in message
. ..
So you served in Vietnam like .... I did?

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue,.

Try to keep up with current events Bub. Kerry's people started this thing.
Funny thing is however Kerry's handelers arn't talking about what Kerry did
after he got out.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

You're right... well sort of. Actually, the press found out and published
info about Bush and his "military service" during the 2000 elections.

I believe you'll find that Kerry was a lt. governor, then was elected
to Congress.

The most amusing part about the Bush military issue is that he failed
to show up for his physical. I wonder why? Could it be that he wouldn't
have been able to pass the drug test?.. you know, the Coke/Alcohol
thing.

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue,.

Try to keep up with current events Bub. Kerry's people started this
thing.
Funny thing is however Kerry's handelers arn't talking about what Kerry
did
after he got out.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Fonda wasn't the '-itch' I first thought of when reading the the subject
line. Anyway . . .

Kerry just publically told his people to get off it. Unlike Gore and the
Seattle Freeway Gridlocks, Kerry realizes he stands to lose votes by such
idiocies as a Democrat even remotely discussing military service. He'll do
the same on two other fronts. One is the conduct of the 'do' in Iraq. 500
dead of our professional military is a phenomenal success. In my die we
would knock off that many in a week and still manage to lose the war. The
other is the six or whatever nukes in N. Korea. Six is chicken feed
compared to the 10,000 we used to have pointing at us. Hooray for
Candidate Kerry.

As an aside I might point out the reason National Guard did not serve in
Viet-Nam stemmed from several reasons. 1) LBJ chose not to call them up. 2)
Back then the myth of the National Guard belonging to the state had some
validity. That hasn't been true for a couple of decades.

There is, it seems, more than one way to skip out of performing one's
duty. LBJ, as a congressman, acquired a direct commission to, I believe,
Lieutenant Colonel. He made one visit out to Hawaii but no further and for
that received a Silver Star. Like most medals, you have to know the pay
grade of a person to judge the value of the Silver Star award.

I predict he will pick Hillary for VP. That action will mobilize the
remnants of the Dem's and the few remaining fruit loops in the former
woman's movement. Can't do much better than that. Sorry to say I think
Hillary will refuse the offer.

I'm guessing Bush 55% to 60% and Kerry most of the rest. One reason is the
Republicans will form a coalition with the Libertarians but the Democrats
will not form a coalition with the Greens.

Prediction for 2008? Kerry will run again. Hillary has entirely too much
baggage. Sort of a female Nixon in that regard.

As for the Perot - istas? Recall four years ago I stated Buchanan's only
reason for joining them was to destroy them and thus ensure a Republican
victory?

Meanwhile the national policy will remain 'one building, one country.'

M.


"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue,.

Try to keep up with current events Bub. Kerry's people started this
thing.
Funny thing is however Kerry's handelers arn't talking about what Kerry
did
after he got out.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

On 11 Feb 2004 05:01:37 GMT, (SAIL LOCO) wrote:

It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue,.

Try to keep up with current events Bub. Kerry's people started this thing.
Funny thing is however Kerry's handelers arn't talking about what Kerry did
after he got out.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Yes, it was the Democratic Party Chairman who seems to have started
that "deserter" business. That whole issue does seem like a waste of
time and energy. I well remember the days of the draft lottery, and I
don't remember anyone hoping for a low number:) I was referring to
this goofy Kerry/Jane Fonda balloon that Rush is floating. The only
real connection I can see to the Viet Nam days is that I question the
thinking that has gotten us involved in Iraq. The good news is that I
don't think we will be there for 10 years at a cost of over 50,000
Americans, but for me, 600 is too many if we didn't have a justifiable
reason to go. Not to mention the huge expenditure of our tax dollars.

I wonder how the American sentiment would view this war and our
elected leadership if we still had a draft and it *might* affect all
the young folks, instead of the few?

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
He has the right to protest, but he doesn't have right to hang
out with whomever he wants... now that's quite a statement.

I did not think the war in Vietnam was fought correctly.
But I respect the people that had to fight.

I would never support anyone that aided the enemy. Hanoi Janes
actions was a big moral booster to the VC. Which killed American.
THATS A FACT.

Kerry sided with Jane for political gains and said screwed the troops!

Capt. American







The likes of you would always vote for Bush and his kind. You
have no obligation to do otherwise, and I'm proud to say that
I'm nothing like you.


I did not vote for Bush last time. I voted for Nader. But Im now
proud of what Bush has accomplished. He let the world know that
America will not stand by and let the axis of evil triumph. He let the
world know who is running the show.






"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
If anyone had the right to protest the war in Vietnam it was Kerry.

He did his part and earned the right to say what ever he wanted to
about the war. The man has my respect. And he was a boat man, that
gives him even more
respect from me.

However I can not understand why he would hang out with that bitch
that had no say, put American lives in danger, runied the moral of the
troops and provided aid to comfort to the enemey. I just wish my buddy
took her out when he had the chance. He had her lined up in the sights
of a Ma duce. When I saw her sitting on that commie anti aircraft gun
I was boiling mad!

You liberals may think that picture will not carry much weight, but
it will.

If Kerry publicly says he is ashamed to be in the same picture with
that bitch
I will vote for him in November. If he does not, I will vote for Bush.

Wanting to stop a war that our leaders would not properly fight was
ok. But to provide comfort and aid to the enemy is treason and
un-American. Jane should of been shot.

His actions after his service to our great country may sink his boat.

Capt. American

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
Kerry sided with Jane for political gains and said screwed the troops!


On what do you base this? That he attended the same rally as her, 2 years
before she went to Hanoi? You're going to have to do a lot better than that.

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Jeff Morris wrote:

"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
Kerry sided with Jane for political gains and said screwed the troops!


On what do you base this? That he attended the same rally as her, 2 years
before she went to Hanoi? You're going to have to do a lot better than that.
Try Kerry's testimony before Congress. It's public record.

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

The most amusing part about the Bush military issue is that he failed
to show up for his physical.

You don't know this. Everything I have seen or read up intill LAST NIGHT
states they are still looking for the records.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Kerry just publically told his people to get off it.

Yea, sure just like he said he didn't bring up Bush's record. Is he in charge
of his campaign or what?
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

What do you mean 'if we still had the draft?' The Selective Service System
is alive, well and ready to be used when needed. All 18 and older males are
still required to register for universal conscription. When cannon fodder
is needed . . . . .re-activating the system is but a computer push button
away.

However, and speaking as a 20 year retiree from the combat arms, I don't
believe in it. Having professional soldiers is much more efficient and the
job gets done a lot better, especially if the politicos don't interefere
beyond giving the order and setting the broad parameters.

I will go along with R. Heinlein and put it this way. If a society is worth
saving enough will come forward. If enough do not come forward it follows
without question the society was not worth saving.

The truest measure of the worth or value of any system is it's ability to
defend itself without military slavery (the draft, Selective Service, or
Universal Conscription by it's true name.)

But then I also believe with Mr. Heinlein that full citizenship should only
belong to those who have come forward and put the good of the whole ahead of
themselves as individuals and further that no one coming forward voluntarily
should be denied some form of service, be it combat arms or hospital orderly
in lower Manhatten.

Citizenship should be more than a mere geographical accident of birth.

Now to real get the blood going....as long as women are denied by the
constitution the right, duty, and privilege of being drafted they will
always be second class citizens and barred from full participation.

For those of you who read the book instead of watching the stupid movie you
already know the rest of this great philosophy.

M.




"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:15:11 GMT, felton said:

I wonder how the American sentiment would view this war and our
elected leadership if we still had a draft and it *might* affect all
the young folks, instead of the few?

Actually, I have it on pretty good authority that our present mix of
active
duty troops and national guard is the result of a deliberate policy change
made for that very purpose after appraising the loss of support for the
Vietnam war. The problem was an undue concentration of lower income and
black soldiers among the draftees, with the middle and upper class whites
wangling deferments. (Remember that Howard Dean had such a back problem he
had to spend the war years skiing in Vermont.) The determination was made
that substantial numbers of the guard should be involved in any future war
in order to bring involvement to Main Street.


Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:09:54 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:

What do you mean 'if we still had the draft?' The Selective Service System
is alive, well and ready to be used when needed. All 18 and older males are
still required to register for universal conscription. When cannon fodder
is needed . . . . .re-activating the system is but a computer push button
away.

When was the last time someone was drafted? We have registration for
Selective Service, but I don't view that as a draft. Do you?

My point was that I believe that the attitude of many Americans would
shift if they believed their family members might end up in one of
these military adventures. Currently, the only way anyone is going to
be put at risk is if they sign up for it. That was not true in the
60s. If your ping pong ball bubbled up to the top in the draft
lottery, then you might well be on the bus to basic training. I
believe the professional, volunteer services we have now are far
better, but I am concerned that it may leave the vast majority of
Americans detatched from the very real losses and risks of war because
it is happening to "somebody else."

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Heard it on ABC and CNN. Even his own supporters are saying this.

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
The most amusing part about the Bush military issue is that he failed
to show up for his physical.

You don't know this. Everything I have seen or read up intill LAST NIGHT
states they are still looking for the records.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

He's not in charge of the entire Dem. group. I don't believe he ever
said Bush was AWOL.

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
Kerry just publically told his people to get off it.

Yea, sure just like he said he didn't bring up Bush's record. Is he in
charge
of his campaign or what?
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Well, let's do the numbers... 600 per year X 10 years (according to the
long term commitment Rummy's been talking about = 6000 American
Soldier deaths + 3 x 6000 injured = 18,000 people dead or injured,
18,000 x 3 (people in each family) = 54,000 American lives screwed
up + x number of Iraq civilians + x number of foreign troop casualties.

Not a great number.

"felton" wrote in message
...
On 11 Feb 2004 05:01:37 GMT, (SAIL LOCO) wrote:

It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue,.

Try to keep up with current events Bub. Kerry's people started this
thing.
Funny thing is however Kerry's handelers arn't talking about what Kerry
did
after he got out.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Yes, it was the Democratic Party Chairman who seems to have started
that "deserter" business. That whole issue does seem like a waste of
time and energy. I well remember the days of the draft lottery, and I
don't remember anyone hoping for a low number:) I was referring to
this goofy Kerry/Jane Fonda balloon that Rush is floating. The only
real connection I can see to the Viet Nam days is that I question the
thinking that has gotten us involved in Iraq. The good news is that I
don't think we will be there for 10 years at a cost of over 50,000
Americans, but for me, 600 is too many if we didn't have a justifiable
reason to go. Not to mention the huge expenditure of our tax dollars.

I wonder how the American sentiment would view this war and our
elected leadership if we still had a draft and it *might* affect all
the young folks, instead of the few?

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

I think you should volunteer immediately.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:15:11 GMT, felton said:

I wonder how the American sentiment would view this war and our
elected leadership if we still had a draft and it *might* affect all
the young folks, instead of the few?

Actually, I have it on pretty good authority that our present mix of
active
duty troops and national guard is the result of a deliberate policy change
made for that very purpose after appraising the loss of support for the
Vietnam war. The problem was an undue concentration of lower income and
black soldiers among the draftees, with the middle and upper class whites
wangling deferments. (Remember that Howard Dean had such a back problem he
had to spend the war years skiing in Vermont.) The determination was made
that substantial numbers of the guard should be involved in any future war
in order to bring involvement to Main Street.


Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

It would take an act of Congress. I believe Rangle (sp?) has introduced
such legislation.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:09:54 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:

What do you mean 'if we still had the draft?' The Selective Service
System
is alive, well and ready to be used when needed. All 18 and older males
are
still required to register for universal conscription. When cannon
fodder
is needed . . . . .re-activating the system is but a computer push button
away.


We do not currently have a draft, and it would take a bit more than a
push of a button to create one.

BB

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

No, it isn't a fact. You're just being an ass. Go away.

"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
He has the right to protest, but he doesn't have right to hang
out with whomever he wants... now that's quite a statement.

I did not think the war in Vietnam was fought correctly.
But I respect the people that had to fight.

I would never support anyone that aided the enemy. Hanoi Janes
actions was a big moral booster to the VC. Which killed American.
THATS A FACT.

Kerry sided with Jane for political gains and said screwed the troops!

Capt. American

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

He bases this on his lack of intelligence.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
Kerry sided with Jane for political gains and said screwed the troops!


On what do you base this? That he attended the same rally as her, 2 years
before she went to Hanoi? You're going to have to do a lot better than
that.

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Bs. Kerry never said "screw the troops."

"The Count" wrote in message
...
Jeff Morris wrote:

"Capt.American" wrote in message
om...
Kerry sided with Jane for political gains and said screwed the troops!


On what do you base this? That he attended the same rally as her, 2
years
before she went to Hanoi? You're going to have to do a lot better than
that.
Try Kerry's testimony before Congress. It's public record.

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:36:00 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Well, let's do the numbers... 600 per year X 10 years (according to the
long term commitment Rummy's been talking about = 6000 American
Soldier deaths + 3 x 6000 injured = 18,000 people dead or injured,
18,000 x 3 (people in each family) = 54,000 American lives screwed
up + x number of Iraq civilians + x number of foreign troop casualties.

Not a great number.

I wasn't suggesting that any number is a good number. Currently I
think the heat is on to do something prior to the election because
those WMDs didn't show up and all we seem to have managed to do is get
our hands firmly on the tar baby. It may be too early to say how this
area will be stabilized, but looking around in that part of the world
I would have to say that a Western style democracy friendly to the USA
seems an unlikley outcome. This whole thing has been a mystery to me.


"felton" wrote in message
.. .
On 11 Feb 2004 05:01:37 GMT, (SAIL LOCO) wrote:

It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue,.

Try to keep up with current events Bub. Kerry's people started this
thing.
Funny thing is however Kerry's handelers arn't talking about what Kerry
did
after he got out.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Yes, it was the Democratic Party Chairman who seems to have started
that "deserter" business. That whole issue does seem like a waste of
time and energy. I well remember the days of the draft lottery, and I
don't remember anyone hoping for a low number:) I was referring to
this goofy Kerry/Jane Fonda balloon that Rush is floating. The only
real connection I can see to the Viet Nam days is that I question the
thinking that has gotten us involved in Iraq. The good news is that I
don't think we will be there for 10 years at a cost of over 50,000
Americans, but for me, 600 is too many if we didn't have a justifiable
reason to go. Not to mention the huge expenditure of our tax dollars.

I wonder how the American sentiment would view this war and our
elected leadership if we still had a draft and it *might* affect all
the young folks, instead of the few?

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:46:05 -0600, Dave wrote:


Actually, I have it on pretty good authority that our present mix of active
duty troops and national guard is the result of a deliberate policy change
made for that very purpose after appraising the loss of support for the
Vietnam war. The problem was an undue concentration of lower income and
black soldiers among the draftees, with the middle and upper class whites
wangling deferments. (Remember that Howard Dean had such a back problem he
had to spend the war years skiing in Vermont.) The determination was made
that substantial numbers of the guard should be involved in any future war
in order to bring involvement to Main Street.

Seriously, this is not a flame, but the above doesn't make sense to me.
I've always thought that the active/guard mix is a direct result of an all
volunteer military. It's kept lean and mean during peacetime
necessitating guard usage during a war. I would also suggest a draft
brings in a wider cross-section of the public than an all volunteer
service. Middle and upper class whites may no longer be wangling
deferments, neither to they tend to enlist.

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Probably smoking dope with Jane.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:36:32 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
said:

I think you should volunteer immediately.

Thanks for the suggestion, Jonathan, but I did my stint over 35 years ago.
At this age I doubt they'd even accept me if I volunteered.

This seems a sensitive topic with you. Is there something you'd like to
tell
us about what you were doing back then?



Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

I know. I wasn't implying that. I was just trying to add some
numbers to what shouldn't be that murky of a situation.

"felton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:36:00 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Well, let's do the numbers... 600 per year X 10 years (according to the
long term commitment Rummy's been talking about = 6000 American
Soldier deaths + 3 x 6000 injured = 18,000 people dead or injured,
18,000 x 3 (people in each family) = 54,000 American lives screwed
up + x number of Iraq civilians + x number of foreign troop casualties.

Not a great number.

I wasn't suggesting that any number is a good number. Currently I
think the heat is on to do something prior to the election because
those WMDs didn't show up and all we seem to have managed to do is get
our hands firmly on the tar baby. It may be too early to say how this
area will be stabilized, but looking around in that part of the world
I would have to say that a Western style democracy friendly to the USA
seems an unlikley outcome. This whole thing has been a mystery to me.


"felton" wrote in message
.. .
On 11 Feb 2004 05:01:37 GMT, (SAIL LOCO) wrote:

It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have
chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue,.

Try to keep up with current events Bub. Kerry's people started
this
thing.
Funny thing is however Kerry's handelers arn't talking about what
Kerry
did
after he got out.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Yes, it was the Democratic Party Chairman who seems to have started
that "deserter" business. That whole issue does seem like a waste of
time and energy. I well remember the days of the draft lottery, and I
don't remember anyone hoping for a low number:) I was referring to
this goofy Kerry/Jane Fonda balloon that Rush is floating. The only
real connection I can see to the Viet Nam days is that I question the
thinking that has gotten us involved in Iraq. The good news is that I
don't think we will be there for 10 years at a cost of over 50,000
Americans, but for me, 600 is too many if we didn't have a justifiable
reason to go. Not to mention the huge expenditure of our tax dollars.

I wonder how the American sentiment would view this war and our
elected leadership if we still had a draft and it *might* affect all
the young folks, instead of the few?

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:53:24 -0600, Dave wrote:

But if firemen,
policemen and other civilians would get called up in time of emergency the
isolation of the military would be reduced.

OK, understood.



I seem to recall seeing figures on this, but can't recall what they showed.
I do recall vividly that before the volunteer army there was a great hue and
cry from the usual suspects about how our wars were fought on the backs of
the po' folks.

Probably true then, probably true now. Unless military service is
universal, it will never be truly equitable.

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

The most amusing part is a Democrat being silly enough to comment on
military service at all. Next thing you know they'll be talking morals,
values, and standards. Bwa Ha Ha HA Ha . . . .. (damn this filling in for
Neal is HARD!) How'd I do?


"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
The most amusing part about the Bush military issue is that he failed
to show up for his physical.

You don't know this. Everything I have seen or read up intill LAST NIGHT
states they are still looking for the records.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

El wrongo....Selective Service Act is still in force and males attaining age
18 or above are required to sign up. It can be used at any time. It never
went away. Did you really not KNOW that? Try calling the local high
school. That and the post office is where the kids get the sign up forms . .
..and it' aint voluntary. No sign up, no federal benefits which to many
youngsters means . . .no college.

M.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:09:54 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:

What do you mean 'if we still had the draft?' The Selective Service
System
is alive, well and ready to be used when needed. All 18 and older males
are
still required to register for universal conscription. When cannon
fodder
is needed . . . . .re-activating the system is but a computer push button
away.


We do not currently have a draft, and it would take a bit more than a
push of a button to create one.

BB

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

"Michael" wrote in message ...
The most amusing part is a Democrat being silly enough to comment on
military service at all. Next thing you know they'll be talking morals,
values, and standards. Bwa Ha Ha HA Ha . . . .. (damn this filling in for
Neal is HARD!) How'd I do?

You're still a bit light on the bigotry, misogyny and theft masquerading as
libertarianism. You have the lying part down pretty good, but you have a ways
to go before you're a true Republican.

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Yes I was surprised that Rangle of all people supported a return to active
conscription. Another term for slavery. I think what it takes is either a
declaration of war by the Congress (and one of the reasons they didn't) or a
Presidential order/decree whatever they call it. Whatever, the youth of the
country are very much on the hook.

M.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
It would take an act of Congress. I believe Rangle (sp?) has introduced
such legislation.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:09:54 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:

What do you mean 'if we still had the draft?' The Selective Service
System
is alive, well and ready to be used when needed. All 18 and older
males
are
still required to register for universal conscription. When cannon
fodder
is needed . . . . .re-activating the system is but a computer push
button
away.


We do not currently have a draft, and it would take a bit more than a
push of a button to create one.

BB

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Not that well... morals... hmmm... like Bush's daughters getting busted.
Or, Gingrich telling his wife in the hospital that he's dumping her? Or,
maybe it's Rush's multiple marriages. Or, possibly Hatch releasing
classified information when he wasn't supposed to. Or, Ashcrap "anointing"
himself with oil when he was picked to be AG (well, that's not amoral,
just bizarre). Or, Henry Hyde's mistress. Oh, I know what you mean...
Bill and Hillary actually raising an intelligent, thoughful daughter inside
the political fishbowl.

"Michael" wrote in message
...
The most amusing part is a Democrat being silly enough to comment on
military service at all. Next thing you know they'll be talking morals,
values, and standards. Bwa Ha Ha HA Ha . . . .. (damn this filling in for
Neal is HARD!) How'd I do?


"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
The most amusing part about the Bush military issue is that he failed
to show up for his physical.

You don't know this. Everything I have seen or read up intill LAST
NIGHT
states they are still looking for the records.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

You shouldn't be surprised. He was advocating a non-deferment draft, wherein
those who have privilege aren't exempt. Seems right to me.

"Michael" wrote in message
...
Yes I was surprised that Rangle of all people supported a return to active
conscription. Another term for slavery. I think what it takes is either
a
declaration of war by the Congress (and one of the reasons they didn't) or
a
Presidential order/decree whatever they call it. Whatever, the youth of
the
country are very much on the hook.

M.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
It would take an act of Congress. I believe Rangle (sp?) has introduced
such legislation.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:09:54 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:

What do you mean 'if we still had the draft?' The Selective Service
System
is alive, well and ready to be used when needed. All 18 and older
males
are
still required to register for universal conscription. When cannon
fodder
is needed . . . . .re-activating the system is but a computer push
button
away.


We do not currently have a draft, and it would take a bit more than a
push of a button to create one.

BB

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

The missing link here is trying to equate modern day professional soldiers
with Viet-Nam era draftees. Two different animules. Today's soldiers are
there for one reason and one reason only. Money. Take away the pay and the
benefits and see how many stand tall for first formation next Monday. Sure
it's nice to have some heart string tugging sort of reasons and it works
well in movies.In real life the reasons soldiers fight, is the same as the
reason NFL linebackers play football. They support the team not the owners.
They work for money first, applause is a distant second. Same way it's been
for thousands of years.

I've noticed this inability of people to get over the Viet-Nam Syndrome. I
guess the guilt trip is strong and well it should be for the way soldiers
were treated back then. But you should reserve paybacks on that guilt for
those of that era. Today's military is highly trained, highly motivated and
highly paid professionals. Not one was drafted against his or her will.

And most of them hold most of you, who worry so much about not much, in
amused contempt. They don't work for you, they work for the government.
They don't care about Mom, apple pie, and the cornfields of Iowa, they care
about their fellow soldiers, their unit, their equipment, their job and
their paychecks. They go where sent and do the job they are paid to do, be
it Afghanistan, Iraq or Iowa.

And the word national in National Guard ought to speak volumes.

By the way. The service members who guard us on the ships transiting and
working in the 'hot spots' of the world range from US Marines to Puerto
Rican National Guard. The soldiers coming back with the returning equipment
were half regulars and half National Guard on extended tours of active duty.
And not one Kerry voter in the bunch.

That's the long way of explaining the word silly to describe the discussion,
and that's being kind.

M.




"felton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:36:00 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Well, let's do the numbers... 600 per year X 10 years (according to the
long term commitment Rummy's been talking about = 6000 American
Soldier deaths + 3 x 6000 injured = 18,000 people dead or injured,
18,000 x 3 (people in each family) = 54,000 American lives screwed
up + x number of Iraq civilians + x number of foreign troop casualties.

Not a great number.

I wasn't suggesting that any number is a good number. Currently I
think the heat is on to do something prior to the election because
those WMDs didn't show up and all we seem to have managed to do is get
our hands firmly on the tar baby. It may be too early to say how this
area will be stabilized, but looking around in that part of the world
I would have to say that a Western style democracy friendly to the USA
seems an unlikley outcome. This whole thing has been a mystery to me.


"felton" wrote in message
.. .
On 11 Feb 2004 05:01:37 GMT, (SAIL LOCO) wrote:

It is more than a bit amusing that the right wind whackos have
chosen
to make Viet Nam an issue,.

Try to keep up with current events Bub. Kerry's people started
this
thing.
Funny thing is however Kerry's handelers arn't talking about what
Kerry
did
after he got out.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Yes, it was the Democratic Party Chairman who seems to have started
that "deserter" business. That whole issue does seem like a waste of
time and energy. I well remember the days of the draft lottery, and I
don't remember anyone hoping for a low number:) I was referring to
this goofy Kerry/Jane Fonda balloon that Rush is floating. The only
real connection I can see to the Viet Nam days is that I question the
thinking that has gotten us involved in Iraq. The good news is that I
don't think we will be there for 10 years at a cost of over 50,000
Americans, but for me, 600 is too many if we didn't have a justifiable
reason to go. Not to mention the huge expenditure of our tax dollars.

I wonder how the American sentiment would view this war and our
elected leadership if we still had a draft and it *might* affect all
the young folks, instead of the few?

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Not unless there are major changes in draft exemptions. Some of the serious
reasons the draft was unpopular was it focused on the poor and the
minorities who did not qualify for a multitude of exemptions. In fact it
produced the exact opposite of what you suggest with middle and upper class
whites getting married, going to college, or Russia or whereever.

I still say the draft in and of itself is wrong. But if you have to have it
at least make it somewhat equal and yes that includes women as well. No
reason they should continue to be second class citizens. It's wrong.

If society is worth saving enough will come forward, if enough do not come
forward then the society was not worth saving.

(Or you could just hire a bunch of mercenaries . . .damn . ..that's exactly
what we did isn't it!)

M.




"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:46:05 -0600, Dave wrote:


Actually, I have it on pretty good authority that our present mix of
active
duty troops and national guard is the result of a deliberate policy
change
made for that very purpose after appraising the loss of support for the
Vietnam war. The problem was an undue concentration of lower income and
black soldiers among the draftees, with the middle and upper class
whites
wangling deferments. (Remember that Howard Dean had such a back problem
he
had to spend the war years skiing in Vermont.) The determination was
made
that substantial numbers of the guard should be involved in any future
war
in order to bring involvement to Main Street.

Seriously, this is not a flame, but the above doesn't make sense to me.
I've always thought that the active/guard mix is a direct result of an all
volunteer military. It's kept lean and mean during peacetime
necessitating guard usage during a war. I would also suggest a draft
brings in a wider cross-section of the public than an all volunteer
service. Middle and upper class whites may no longer be wangling
deferments, neither to they tend to enlist.

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

My last assignment was a National Guard advisor/trainer. One of the things
we checked for was to ensure that no fire, law enforcement, and a few other
professions were in the units as they could not be called up to active duty
in time of war. All of them were discharged honorably. I see now the
Guardsmen on our ship come from exactly those professions so there must have
been some change since '88.

M.


"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:15:48 -0500, thunder said:

I've always thought that the active/guard mix is a direct result of an
all
volunteer military. It's kept lean and mean during peacetime
necessitating guard usage during a war.

I understand that it's not just a matter of pure numbers. The plan was to
structure the active force to be deliberately super-lean only in some
areas.
There might be enough people on active duty in absolute numbers, but not
in
sufficient numbers in some specialties, requiring calling up guardsmen in
those specialties. You're right that it was related to the all volunteer
force. The concern was that as we went to an all volunteer force the gulf
between the military and civilians would continue to widen. But if
firemen,
policemen and other civilians would get called up in time of emergency the
isolation of the military would be reduced.

I would also suggest a draft
brings in a wider cross-section of the public than an all volunteer
service.

I seem to recall seeing figures on this, but can't recall what they
showed.
I do recall vividly that before the volunteer army there was a great hue
and
cry from the usual suspects about how our wars were fought on the backs of
the po' folks. I also recall that among those who couldn't get classified
4F
(this was before the lottery) there was an amazing increase in enrollment
in Ph.D programs in time of war, as well as a rapid expansion of
participation in "critical" jobs such as teaching. And at the time neither
group could be fairly said to be a representative cross-section of the
public.




Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

John Kerry & the Bitch
 

Not to mention a lot of our dregs went to Canada. And still live there.

SV


"Michael" wrote in message
...

minorities who did not qualify for a multitude of exemptions. In fact it
produced the exact opposite of what you suggest with middle and upper
class
whites getting married, going to college, or Russia or whereever.