"Michael" wrote in message
...
What you are talking about is "Guns and Butter" which resulted in LBJ's
contrived War in VietNam, .....

Sorry old man but LBJ did NOT contrive the war in Vietnam; it was contrived
by JFK's "Whiz Kids" - a pack of north-eastern Brahmins who despised Johnson
as an uncouth southern red neck. Their buddy JFK had let Ike's plan to win
Vietnamese hearts and minds over to capitalism fail. They erroniously
believed the plan could be salvaged by committing US troops. Knowing that
LBJ, congress, the Military and the American people were all "too stupid" to
see the merit in their ivory tower logic they contrived a huge conn job and
it worked. With McNamara as Sec of Defense and Bunker as ambassador
controlling in country intellegence they pulled the wool on everybody,
including LBJ.

LBJ's failed social programs, ...

Agreed, but ....
LBJ's huge national debt increase, LBJ being run out of office .....

My recollection of the period differes from yours - or perhaps you are just
repeating the BS you were told. LBJ's debt increase was tiny compared to
Reagan's or The Shrub's. And as far as being run out of office, LBJ elected
to quit soon after learning how he'd been duped into the war.

JFK where were you when we really needed you!

Bwahahahahaha! That's a good one!!

LBJ took the information sent to him from the Turner Joy and used it as a
pretext to start a war. Even though there's enough evidence to show the
ship, along with the Maddox, was either not under attack, was not attacked
on the high seas, or had violated the territorial integrity of N. Vietnam.
JFK had ordered a complete troop and adviser withdrawal. LBJ reversed that.
JFK did not rule out the use of the National Guard, that was LBJ once again.
That war was Lyndon's War pure and simple. All those names on that monument
in Washington? Because of one meglomaniac. LBJ is not someone the
Democratic party should point to with pride. On top of everything else he
gave us Nixon. Sheesh . . .that's three strikes in one all by itself.

No arguments on the McNamara Gang.

M.

That aside and from a pure professional military viewpoint, I did love the
work.





"Vito" wrote in message
...
"Michael" wrote in message
...
What you are talking about is "Guns and Butter" which resulted in LBJ's
contrived War in VietNam, .....

Sorry old man but LBJ did NOT contrive the war in Vietnam; it was
contrived
by JFK's "Whiz Kids" - a pack of north-eastern Brahmins who despised
Johnson
as an uncouth southern red neck. Their buddy JFK had let Ike's plan to
win
Vietnamese hearts and minds over to capitalism fail. They erroniously
believed the plan could be salvaged by committing US troops. Knowing that
LBJ, congress, the Military and the American people were all "too stupid"
to
see the merit in their ivory tower logic they contrived a huge conn job
and
it worked. With McNamara as Sec of Defense and Bunker as ambassador
controlling in country intellegence they pulled the wool on everybody,
including LBJ.

LBJ's failed social programs, ...

Agreed, but ....
LBJ's huge national debt increase, LBJ being run out of office .....

My recollection of the period differes from yours - or perhaps you are
just
repeating the BS you were told. LBJ's debt increase was tiny compared to
Reagan's or The Shrub's. And as far as being run out of office, LBJ
elected
to quit soon after learning how he'd been duped into the war.

JFK where were you when we really needed you!

Bwahahahahaha! That's a good one!!

"Michael" wrote in message
...
LBJ took the information sent to him from the Turner Joy and used it as a
pretext to start a war.

As did we all. Again, Ike's plan was to make N/S Vietnam like E/W Germany
so that capitalism would win the scheduled reunification election but the
Diems had diverted the aid intended to achieve that and we had Buddists
torching themselves in protest. The CIA, et al warned JFK he'd have to
whack Diem quickly for Ike's plan to succeed but. as always, he wavered and
did nothing til it was too late and polls were showing commies by a
landslide. Then he went to Dallas leaving McNamara, Bunker and other Whiz
Kids to contrive the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

JFK had ordered a complete troop and adviser withdrawal. LBJ reversed
that.
JFK did not rule out the use of the National Guard, that was LBJ once
again.
That war was Lyndon's War pure and simple. All those names on that
monument
in Washington? Because of one meglomaniac.

I have a saying: "Never attribute to malace that which can be explained by
stupidity." I believe that applies to LBJ in this case. Yes, he did start
the war but, as you say, based on reports from Turner Joy, an incident
contrived by McNamara and Bunker to get presidential, congressional and
public support for an adventure doomed to fail from its inception. Then he
escalated it - again based on reports (disinformation) given him via
McNamara and Bunker from their hand-picked yes-men. JFK's whiz kids duped
us into that war. Do we blame JFK for hiring them or LBJ for keeping them?


LBJ is not someone the Democrat party should point to with pride.

You're right! He was almost as bad as Reagan.

By the by. The Turner Joy is the main tourist attraction in Bremerton, WA.
It was a sop to the area when they moved the Missouri to Hawaii. I thought
more an insult until I realized the story of the Turner Joy would continue
to be told and perhaps, just perhaps, serve as a warning to future
generations of cannon fodder. Another reason I dislike the draft and
believe only in volunteers and professionals.

M.


"Vito" wrote in message
...
"Michael" wrote in message
...
LBJ took the information sent to him from the Turner Joy and used it as
a
pretext to start a war.

As did we all. Again, Ike's plan was to make N/S Vietnam like E/W Germany
so that capitalism would win the scheduled reunification election but the
Diems had diverted the aid intended to achieve that and we had Buddists
torching themselves in protest. The CIA, et al warned JFK he'd have to
whack Diem quickly for Ike's plan to succeed but. as always, he wavered
and
did nothing til it was too late and polls were showing commies by a
landslide. Then he went to Dallas leaving McNamara, Bunker and other Whiz
Kids to contrive the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

JFK had ordered a complete troop and adviser withdrawal. LBJ reversed
that.
JFK did not rule out the use of the National Guard, that was LBJ once
again.
That war was Lyndon's War pure and simple. All those names on that
monument
in Washington? Because of one meglomaniac.

I have a saying: "Never attribute to malace that which can be explained by
stupidity." I believe that applies to LBJ in this case. Yes, he did
start
the war but, as you say, based on reports from Turner Joy, an incident
contrived by McNamara and Bunker to get presidential, congressional and
public support for an adventure doomed to fail from its inception. Then
he
escalated it - again based on reports (disinformation) given him via
McNamara and Bunker from their hand-picked yes-men. JFK's whiz kids duped
us into that war. Do we blame JFK for hiring them or LBJ for keeping them?


LBJ is not someone the Democrat party should point to with pride.

You're right! He was almost as bad as Reagan.

Vito wrote:

My recollection of the period differes from yours - or perhaps you are just
repeating the BS you were told.

Michael is basically a good person, but he's disadvantaged... his head has been
stuffed with all sorts of nonsense and plain facts can't get in. For example, he
is absolutely positive that the New Deal "didn't work," that nobody was killed
in Kosovo, that the Federal Reserve creates U.S. gov't debt, etc etc.

It's sort of like that old story of the Zen master who kept pouring after the
cup was full. But he does talk sailing and that's a good thing.

DSK