And, Kennedy was talking about reducing our involvement in VN.

And, despite Johnson committing 1000s of soldiers to VN, he also
pushed through the "Great Society," which included civil rights.

And, although Nixon did end the war eventually, he was an even
bigger liar than Bush.

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Lonny wrote:
Vietnam war was started by a Democrat - Kennedy.

Vietnam war was expanded by a Democrat - Johnson.

Vietnam war was ended by a Republican - Nixon.

All facts beyond dispute.

And then, there's what really happened...

Kennedy increased the number of US troops already in Viet Nam... but the
net of treaties obligating us to do so were created under Eisenhower.

Expanded by Johnson- yes and you might also want to look up who was
complicit in misleading Congress over the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

Viet Nam War ended by Nixon... six years after he won the office of
President based on his promises to do so... several tens of thousands of
American lives lost because Nixon could not honor his promise and did
not want to go down in history as a President who lost a war.

DSK

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...

And, Kennedy was talking about reducing our involvement in VN.

You are such a typical liberal. I guess as long as he was 'talking'
about it, then he is not to be held responsible for the way he
conducted the war. Oh my god!



And, despite Johnson committing 1000s of soldiers to VN, he also
pushed through the "Great Society," which included civil rights.

Doing so only with the help of the Republicans. Most liberals were
AGAINST this and voted so. Fact. Look it up.



And, although Nixon did end the war eventually, he was an even
bigger liar than Bush.

A bigger liar than Bush.... hmmmmm.... sort of like Clinton, then?
BWa hahahaha BWAaaaa

Lonny

What you are talking about is "Guns and Butter" which resulted in LBJ's
contrived War in VietNam, LBJ's failed social programs, LBJ's huge national
debt increase, LBJ being run out of office and worse getting us stuck with
Tricky Dick, D Digit Carter et. al. that followed LBJ still has a lot to
answer for but being successful is not one of the questions. JFK where
were you when we really needed you!

M.



"Lonny" wrote in message
gle.com...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

And, Kennedy was talking about reducing our involvement in VN.

You are such a typical liberal. I guess as long as he was 'talking'
about it, then he is not to be held responsible for the way he
conducted the war. Oh my god!



And, despite Johnson committing 1000s of soldiers to VN, he also
pushed through the "Great Society," which included civil rights.

Doing so only with the help of the Republicans. Most liberals were
AGAINST this and voted so. Fact. Look it up.



And, although Nixon did end the war eventually, he was an even
bigger liar than Bush.

A bigger liar than Bush.... hmmmmm.... sort of like Clinton, then?
BWa hahahaha BWAaaaa

Lonny

And, freedom and liberty for more of our society. Umm... Nixon was a
Republican last I heard.

"Michael" wrote in message
...
What you are talking about is "Guns and Butter" which resulted in LBJ's
contrived War in VietNam, LBJ's failed social programs, LBJ's huge
national
debt increase, LBJ being run out of office and worse getting us stuck with
Tricky Dick, D Digit Carter et. al. that followed LBJ still has a lot to
answer for but being successful is not one of the questions. JFK where
were you when we really needed you!

M.



"Lonny" wrote in message
gle.com...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

And, Kennedy was talking about reducing our involvement in VN.

You are such a typical liberal. I guess as long as he was 'talking'
about it, then he is not to be held responsible for the way he
conducted the war. Oh my god!



And, despite Johnson committing 1000s of soldiers to VN, he also
pushed through the "Great Society," which included civil rights.

Doing so only with the help of the Republicans. Most liberals were
AGAINST this and voted so. Fact. Look it up.



And, although Nixon did end the war eventually, he was an even
bigger liar than Bush.

A bigger liar than Bush.... hmmmmm.... sort of like Clinton, then?
BWa hahahaha BWAaaaa

Lonny

Michael wrote:

What you are talking about is "Guns and Butter" which resulted in LBJ's
contrived War in VietNam, LBJ's failed social programs, LBJ's huge national
debt increase, LBJ being run out of office and worse getting us stuck with
Tricky Dick, D Digit Carter et. al. that followed LBJ still has a lot to
answer for but being successful is not one of the questions. JFK where
were you when we really needed you!

Whoa, dude... you are seriously uninformed.

"Guns *or* Butter" is a catch phrase referring to a basic principle of
economics and finance. The basic principle is that a given unit of money
(dollars, euros, yen, whatever) can only be spent once. The phrase "Guns or
butter" refers to a particular gov't or administrations orientation... spend
the money on military/defense porkbarreling, or social programs. LBJ was
challenged on this and said "We can have guns and butter" but that was long
after the Viet Nam war was way out of control.

About LBJ's "failed" social programs.... wow I guess if you think that the New
Deal was a failure then why not say that the civil rights movement and school
integration was also a failure. It is a way of admitting that you have a dim &
twisted view of happenings in the real world.

And Lonny.... get a clue... which Republicans had very much push behind the
civil rights movement? I want names and specific acts & dates.

This wholesale rewriting of history would be amusing if it didn't reveal such
abysmal ignorance and mean-spiritedness. Oh, and BTW... history is written (and
re-written) by the winners. That means... not you!

DSK

When I post something like that I can always count on my good buddy Doug to
set it straight. I get the fun and he gets the credit. Together we
actually get somewhere instead of the usual round and round and round of
nothing. Actually while The Great Society was well meant and set us on the
right track I'd have to say the Education portion was, and for that matter
still is, a dismal failure. All I see is out of control education costs
and little to show for it. May be dim and twisted but the New Deal did not
result in more jobs. WWII and the runup to it resulted in, and created far
more jobs (for a while).

Thanks Doug.

Now for the good news!

The evil wand has waved and the call of work beckons once again. 24th I fly
out to the next ship. Make some money. Spend it on my boat. Hey! It's
only a "trickle" comparatively
but it's keeping one nautical business from going 'down'.

You just got to do your best.

Now for the better than good news. There will be something in the not so
distant future for you all to discuss, and chew into pieces. I just found
out my first magazine article was not only accepted by Lats and Atts but is
slated for the May issue . . .barring changes.

From one side of it only Rick will know of what I speak. But form the other
.. . .ouch, ouch, ouch . ..brickbats etc.

Michael


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Michael wrote:

What you are talking about is "Guns and Butter" which resulted in LBJ's
contrived War in VietNam, LBJ's failed social programs, LBJ's huge
national
debt increase, LBJ being run out of office and worse getting us stuck
with
Tricky Dick, D Digit Carter et. al. that followed LBJ still has a lot
to
answer for but being successful is not one of the questions. JFK where
were you when we really needed you!

Whoa, dude... you are seriously uninformed.

"Guns *or* Butter" is a catch phrase referring to a basic principle of
economics and finance. The basic principle is that a given unit of money
(dollars, euros, yen, whatever) can only be spent once. The phrase "Guns
or
butter" refers to a particular gov't or administrations orientation...
spend
the money on military/defense porkbarreling, or social programs. LBJ was
challenged on this and said "We can have guns and butter" but that was
long
after the Viet Nam war was way out of control.

About LBJ's "failed" social programs.... wow I guess if you think that the
New
Deal was a failure then why not say that the civil rights movement and
school
integration was also a failure. It is a way of admitting that you have a
dim &
twisted view of happenings in the real world.

And Lonny.... get a clue... which Republicans had very much push behind
the
civil rights movement? I want names and specific acts & dates.

This wholesale rewriting of history would be amusing if it didn't reveal
such
abysmal ignorance and mean-spiritedness. Oh, and BTW... history is written
(and
re-written) by the winners. That means... not you!

DSK

Michael wrote:

When I post something like that I can always count on my good buddy Doug to
set it straight. I get the fun and he gets the credit.

What credit do I get?

Together we
actually get somewhere instead of the usual round and round and round of
nothing. Actually while The Great Society was well meant and set us on the
right track I'd have to say the Education portion was, and for that matter
still is, a dismal failure.

Speaking for yourself?




May be dim and twisted but the New Deal did not
result in more jobs.

Ahem... back to this old favorite lie again? Did you look at *any* of the
references I posted last time? Do you keep repeating this because you enjoy
getting laughed at?


WWII and the runup to it resulted in, and created far
more jobs (for a while).

Now there I agree. Nothing like a war to get the economy jump-started. I wonder
if anybody in DC realizes it's not working too well in the current case, at
least not for most people.

And congrats on the article. I don't read Latts & Atts but will look for your
byline.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:58:32 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:
Now for the good news!

The evil wand has waved and the call of work beckons once again. 24th I fly
out to the next ship. Make some money. Spend it on my boat. Hey! It's
only a "trickle" comparatively
but it's keeping one nautical business from going 'down'.

Have a good trip Michael.

You just got to do your best.

Now for the better than good news. There will be something in the not so
distant future for you all to discuss, and chew into pieces. I just found
out my first magazine article was not only accepted by Lats and Atts but is
slated for the May issue . . .barring changes.

From one side of it only Rick will know of what I speak. But form the other
. . .ouch, ouch, ouch . ..brickbats etc.

Michael


Congrats on your article.
Mark E. Williams

Thanks! Here's the sites you want to visit. www.dol.gov with emphasis on
the statistics. Shows best employment rate at 1983 and a marked decline
from 1992 to 1998 roughly with a spike from there to 2000. The figures only
go back to 1948.

No conclusions drawn, draw your own.

Another good site for those of you who think we had balanced budgets or
surpluses is:

www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

You can check back a couple hundred years. But for recent years compare the
amount of surplus claimed with the increase in debt.

What I did notice was the rate of debt increase slowed in the 90's. I would
attribute this to the increased sale of US Gov't financial instruments use
to finance the annual shortfalls, which changed from long term low interest
to short term high interest.

Be interesting to see what happens when those come due.

Back to the safety of the ______ early next week. I fly half way round the
world and meet the new ship in my favorite port of ______. Did you know in
_____ you can be DVD movies (three on a disk sometimes) for as little as
$3.00 US? Time to stock up on a supply for the new sailboat! Would that
make me a real pirate?

________ by the way is located in the _______Gulf. Just in case you were
wondering.

M.

"Michael" wrote in message
...
What you are talking about is "Guns and Butter" which resulted in LBJ's
contrived War in VietNam, .....

Sorry old man but LBJ did NOT contrive the war in Vietnam; it was contrived
by JFK's "Whiz Kids" - a pack of north-eastern Brahmins who despised Johnson
as an uncouth southern red neck. Their buddy JFK had let Ike's plan to win
Vietnamese hearts and minds over to capitalism fail. They erroniously
believed the plan could be salvaged by committing US troops. Knowing that
LBJ, congress, the Military and the American people were all "too stupid" to
see the merit in their ivory tower logic they contrived a huge conn job and
it worked. With McNamara as Sec of Defense and Bunker as ambassador
controlling in country intellegence they pulled the wool on everybody,
including LBJ.

LBJ's failed social programs, ...

Agreed, but ....
LBJ's huge national debt increase, LBJ being run out of office .....

My recollection of the period differes from yours - or perhaps you are just
repeating the BS you were told. LBJ's debt increase was tiny compared to
Reagan's or The Shrub's. And as far as being run out of office, LBJ elected
to quit soon after learning how he'd been duped into the war.

JFK where were you when we really needed you!

Bwahahahahaha! That's a good one!!