Joe has told us that he uses his VHF, in fog, as his "hearing" lookout.

He is stupid enough to believe that he complies with Rule 5 of the CollRegs
which state:-
=====================================
"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and
hearing as
well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances
and
conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk
of
collision."
=====================================
What do the experts say about the use of a VHF in fog?

Guess what, they say that Joe is a menace! Here's a link!

http://www.seamanship.co.uk/M_Notice...ion/pdf/MGN167
..pdf

"Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision
avoidance, the
provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost, as
misunderstandings
can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem."

And Joe's incompetence is further demonstrated by this little snippet:-

"There have been a significant number of
collisions where subsequent investigation has
found that at some stage before impact, one or
both parties were using VHF radio in an
attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF
radio in these circumstances is not always
helpful and may even prove to be dangerous."

So, Joe's use of the VHF is "dangerous"!

The UK's Marine & Coastguard Agency obviously think that Joe represents a
Clear and Imminent threat to American sailors.

Perhaps Jeff, Joe, or otn, can produce a link which shows that the US
Coastguard thinks that Joe's behaviour is legal???


Bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaahaaaaaa!

Regards


Donal
--

I become increasingly convinced, that you are either a lawyer or
politician

Donal wrote:
Joe has told us that he uses his VHF, in fog, as his "hearing" lookout.

No he didn't, and I can't conceive how you arrived at that conclusion.

He is stupid enough to believe that he complies with Rule 5 of the CollRegs
which state:-
=====================================
"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and
hearing as
well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances
and
conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk
of
collision."
=====================================
What do the experts say about the use of a VHF in fog?

Guess what, they say that Joe is a menace! Here's a link!

http://www.seamanship.co.uk/M_Notice...ion/pdf/MGN167
.pdf

"Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision
avoidance, the
provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost, as
misunderstandings
can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem."

I have to believe that this statement is out of context. Voice (VHF) is
an acceptable alternative to sound signals for "passing situations" in
the waters that Joe is discussing. I would not be surprised that this is
becoming acceptable, world wide.

And Joe's incompetence is further demonstrated by this little snippet:-

"There have been a significant number of
collisions where subsequent investigation has
found that at some stage before impact, one or
both parties were using VHF radio in an
attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF
radio in these circumstances is not always
helpful and may even prove to be dangerous."

So, Joe's use of the VHF is "dangerous"!

No, but like everything, it's limitations must be addressed.

The UK's Marine & Coastguard Agency obviously think that Joe represents a
Clear and Imminent threat to American sailors.

Perhaps Jeff, Joe, or otn, can produce a link which shows that the US
Coastguard thinks that Joe's behaviour is legal???

Read the Inland Rules for the US (Rule 34 h )


otn

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I become increasingly convinced, that you are either a lawyer or
politician

Honestly, I've only ever acted in a legal capacity for an individual named
Lucifer.

If I ever enter into politics, I think that I will be an anarchist ... and
of course we will have to dissolve our party as soon as we found it!


Donal wrote:
Joe has told us that he uses his VHF, in fog, as his "hearing" lookout.

No he didn't, and I can't conceive how you arrived at that conclusion.

Yes, he did! He is the sole lookout on his high-speed barge, and he sits in
the wheelhouse looking at his radar, ans listening to his VHF in fog.



He is stupid enough to believe that he complies with Rule 5 of the
CollRegs
which state:-
=====================================
"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and
hearing as
well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing
circumstances
and
conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the
risk
of
collision."
=====================================
What do the experts say about the use of a VHF in fog?

Guess what, they say that Joe is a menace! Here's a link!


http://www.seamanship.co.uk/M_Notice...ion/pdf/MGN167
.pdf

"Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision
avoidance, the
provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost, as
misunderstandings
can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem."

I have to believe that this statement is out of context. Voice (VHF) is
an acceptable alternative to sound signals for "passing situations" in
the waters that Joe is discussing. I would not be surprised that this is
becoming acceptable, world wide.

Did you read the link? Perhaps, like Joe, you found that it had
dissappeared. Here is another location.
https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4...n03/167%20.pdf






And Joe's incompetence is further demonstrated by this little snippet:-

"There have been a significant number of
collisions where subsequent investigation has
found that at some stage before impact, one or
both parties were using VHF radio in an
attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF
radio in these circumstances is not always
helpful and may even prove to be dangerous."

So, Joe's use of the VHF is "dangerous"!

No, but like everything, it's limitations must be addressed.


Addressed????


Joe seems to be completely its limitations!



Regards


Donal
--

Donal wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message
hlink.net...

I become increasingly convinced, that you are either a lawyer or
politician

(repeat above)

Donal wrote:

Joe has told us that he uses his VHF, in fog, as his "hearing" lookout.

No he didn't, and I can't conceive how you arrived at that conclusion.


Yes, he did! He is the sole lookout on his high-speed barge, and he sits in
the wheelhouse looking at his radar, ans listening to his VHF in fog.

G No he didn't. First off, you assume he is the sole lookout ....
other post indicate he may be, and he may also be using the crew, when
available.
"Listening to his VHF in fog" .... We all listen to our VHF's (at least
we should) in fog AND clear conditions. Most of us have learned to
listen without appearing to do so, while concentrating on other sounds
around us, which we are also listening to/for. The use of VHF to talk to
and pass information about passing situations, in fog and clear weather
is common practice, especially in the waters he is referring to.
Just like, using radar as a collision avoidance system is fraught with
possible dangers of collision, when not used properly, so is the use of
VHF transmissions, when the agreed upon action is not carried out or
backed up with information from the radar, or other sources, as to it's
feasibility.
Sorry Donal, you were reaching, and it doesn't fly.




He is stupid enough to believe that he complies with Rule 5 of the

CollRegs

which state:-
=====================================
"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and
hearing as
well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing

circumstances

and
conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the

risk

of
collision."
=====================================
What do the experts say about the use of a VHF in fog?

Guess what, they say that Joe is a menace! Here's a link!



http://www.seamanship.co.uk/M_Notice...ion/pdf/MGN167

.pdf

"Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision
avoidance, the
provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost, as
misunderstandings
can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem."

I have to believe that this statement is out of context. Voice (VHF) is
an acceptable alternative to sound signals for "passing situations" in
the waters that Joe is discussing. I would not be surprised that this is
becoming acceptable, world wide.


Did you read the link? Perhaps, like Joe, you found that it had
dissappeared. Here is another location.
https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4...n03/167%20.pdf

I read the link after this posting.(couldn't find it the first time) I
can understand what they are saying, but, feel that the point they are
making is the same point as has been made so many times regarding the
use of radar, without a proper plot .... i.e., if you don't back up the
basic communication with follow-up confirmation (radar - plot) then you
are very apt to find yourself in a collision situation, i.e., the VHF
communication is not in and of itself, a guarantee.






And Joe's incompetence is further demonstrated by this little snippet:-

"There have been a significant number of
collisions where subsequent investigation has
found that at some stage before impact, one or
both parties were using VHF radio in an
attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF
radio in these circumstances is not always
helpful and may even prove to be dangerous."

So, Joe's use of the VHF is "dangerous"!

No, but like everything, it's limitations must be addressed.



Addressed????

Yes, addressed. Just like there is no guarantee that because you have a
boat on radar that your actions to avoid collision will be correct, at
least until you make a complete plot and observe the results of your
actions, there is no guarantee that a passing agreement between vessels
made on VHF, will lead to a safe passing, until and unless you follow-up
that agreement to be sure it is being carried out and safe.
BTW, I see you made no mention of the US Inland Rules which talk about
VHF communication for "passing agreements".

otn

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
hlink.net...


Donal wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message
hlink.net...

I become increasingly convinced, that you are either a lawyer or
politician

(repeat above)

I play devil's advocate, occasionally.
I have learned to truly detest almost all politicians in the last couple of
years.

G No he didn't. First off, you assume he is the sole lookout ....
other post indicate he may be, and he may also be using the crew, when
available.

I think that you have missed one of his posts. Perhaps Joe will confirm,
or deny, that he travels in fog witout any other lookout. Joe???? I'm
quite certain that he claimed to do 20kts (or 25), using *only* the radar,
and VHF as a lookout. Furthermore, he has stated that a listening lookout
would be useless because his boat is too noisy.



"Listening to his VHF in fog" .... We all listen to our VHF's (at least
we should) in fog AND clear conditions. Most of us have learned to
listen without appearing to do so, while concentrating on other sounds
around us, which we are also listening to/for. The use of VHF to talk to
and pass information about passing situations, in fog and clear weather
is common practice, especially in the waters he is referring to.

I consider it an obligation to maintain a listening watch on ch16. I make
no criticism of Joe for listening to the VHF. My criticism is aimed at the
lack of a "proper" lookout by "sight and hearing". Joe claimed that the
VHF was a "hearing" watch, and that looking at the Radar was keeping a
lookout "by sight". I bet that you don't agree with him, do you?

.... more on VHF later.


Just like, using radar as a collision avoidance system is fraught with
possible dangers of collision, when not used properly, so is the use of
VHF transmissions, when the agreed upon action is not carried out

I think that the danger in VHF is that you may be talking to the wrong
vessel.



or
backed up with information from the radar,

I've re-read my link, and I admit that it doesn't explicitly say what I am
about to. However, I interpret the danger to be that after you make radio
contact with a vessel, there is a danger that you mis-identify the vessel.
You may have either seen a vessel in good visibility, or you may have
spotted it on the Radar. Either way, I think that the danger is that you
are actually talking to a third vessel.

or other sources, as to it's
feasibility.
Sorry Donal, you were reaching, and it doesn't fly.

Now you are really trying it on.









Did you read the link? Perhaps, like Joe, you found that it had
dissappeared. Here is another location.
https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4...n03/167%20.pdf

I read the link after this posting.(couldn't find it the first time) I
can understand what they are saying, but, feel that the point they are
making is the same point as has been made so many times regarding the
use of radar, without a proper plot ....
i.e., if you don't back up the
basic communication with follow-up confirmation (radar - plot) then you
are very apt to find yourself in a collision situation, i.e., the VHF
communication is not in and of itself, a guarantee.

So, what do you make of the following recommendation (quoted):-

"Marine
Superintendents would be well advised to
prohibit such use of VHF radio and to instruct
their officers to comply with the Collision
Regulations."


That goes much further than your interpretation, doesn't it?
(BTW, I personally think that recommendation is a bit strong.)







snip
No, but like everything, it's limitations must be addressed.



Addressed????

Yes, addressed. Just like there is no guarantee that because you have a
boat on radar that your actions to avoid collision will be correct, at
least until you make a complete plot and observe the results of your
actions, there is no guarantee that a passing agreement between vessels
made on VHF, will lead to a safe passing, until and unless you follow-up
that agreement to be sure it is being carried out and safe.

I think that they are saying that there is no way of being absolutely
certain that the Radar target is really the boat that you are talking to on
the VHF. eg, if the target makes one or two course changes that correlate
with the VHF, you are likely to become over-confident that you are talking
to the right vessel.


BTW, I see you made no mention of the US Inland Rules which talk about
VHF communication for "passing agreements".


Well, I wouldn't, would I? I don't know anything about them. They sound
like they are a bit dangerous, and they might fall short of international
safety standards.


Regards


Donal
--

Donal wrote:


G No he didn't. First off, you assume he is the sole lookout ....
other post indicate he may be, and he may also be using the crew, when
available.


I think that you have missed one of his posts. Perhaps Joe will confirm,
or deny, that he travels in fog witout any other lookout. Joe???? I'm
quite certain that he claimed to do 20kts (or 25), using *only* the radar,
and VHF as a lookout. Furthermore, he has stated that a listening lookout
would be useless because his boat is too noisy.

I think you may have missed one of MY post. Many vessels travel without
a "dedicated" visual lookout. This does not mean that they have no one
watching visually ....it does mean that they have people splitting their
lookout duties between visual and radar .....i.e. .... all available means.
Under no circumstances, could/would I consider listening to the VHF as
being part of this "lookout" condition.
Using the VHF, however, to pass information as to "passing situations"
WOULD be prudent use of an available tool.
As to the noise associated with his boats ..... this can vary greatly,
from overwhelming to, of no consequence.


"Listening to his VHF in fog" .... We all listen to our VHF's (at least
we should) in fog AND clear conditions. Most of us have learned to
listen without appearing to do so, while concentrating on other sounds
around us, which we are also listening to/for. The use of VHF to talk to
and pass information about passing situations, in fog and clear weather
is common practice, especially in the waters he is referring to.


I consider it an obligation to maintain a listening watch on ch16. I make
no criticism of Joe for listening to the VHF. My criticism is aimed at the
lack of a "proper" lookout by "sight and hearing". Joe claimed that the
VHF was a "hearing" watch, and that looking at the Radar was keeping a
lookout "by sight". I bet that you don't agree with him, do you?

Listening to VHF is PART of the "hearing" watch, and watching radar is
PART of the "by sight" watch, so, in essence, as PART of the overall
watch to be maintained in fog, I do agree with him....... I also/still
note, that different conditions require different actions and degrees of
radar/visual watch

... more on VHF later.



Just like, using radar as a collision avoidance system is fraught with
possible dangers of collision, when not used properly, so is the use of
VHF transmissions, when the agreed upon action is not carried out


I think that the danger in VHF is that you may be talking to the wrong
vessel.

This is what all are saying and part of what must be addressed, but is
no different than improper radar plotting in the final result.
One needs to use positions and other methods to confirm that the vessel
you think you are talking to, is indeed the vessel you are talking to.

or
backed up with information from the radar,


I've re-read my link, and I admit that it doesn't explicitly say what I am
about to. However, I interpret the danger to be that after you make radio
contact with a vessel, there is a danger that you mis-identify the vessel.
You may have either seen a vessel in good visibility, or you may have
spotted it on the Radar. Either way, I think that the danger is that you
are actually talking to a third vessel.

This danger exist, but is not a reason to not rely on VHF communication,
rather a reason to confirm proper indentification and communication.


or other sources, as to it's
feasibility.
Sorry Donal, you were reaching, and it doesn't fly.


Now you are really trying it on.

No. My read is that you are using information, which in part, confirms
and/or bolsters your point, yet in truth when taken as a whole,
generally contradicts your point.

Did you read the link? Perhaps, like Joe, you found that it had
dissappeared. Here is another location.
https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4...n03/167%20.pdf

I read the link after this posting.(couldn't find it the first time) I
can understand what they are saying, but, feel that the point they are
making is the same point as has been made so many times regarding the
use of radar, without a proper plot ....
i.e., if you don't back up the
basic communication with follow-up confirmation (radar - plot) then you
are very apt to find yourself in a collision situation, i.e., the VHF
communication is not in and of itself, a guarantee.


So, what do you make of the following recommendation (quoted):-

"Marine
Superintendents would be well advised to
prohibit such use of VHF radio and to instruct
their officers to comply with the Collision
Regulations."

This, to me, is the statement of a lawyer who is not a Maritime
professional and not interested in the practical application as much as
the legal application. The primary issue is to follow and obey the rules
as the basis for how we act. However, to not make proper use, of new
technologies and to restrict their use or employment does not honor or
go along with that all important rule ..... rule 2.
If some "Marine Superintendent" was to try and prohibit my use of VHF
for passing situations, he would be told exactly where he could stick
his prohibitions and why..... course, in my case, I AM the so called
Marine Superintendent eg.


That goes much further than your interpretation, doesn't it?
(BTW, I personally think that recommendation is a bit strong.)

See above

No, but like everything, it's limitations must be addressed.



Addressed????

Yes, addressed. Just like there is no guarantee that because you have a
boat on radar that your actions to avoid collision will be correct, at
least until you make a complete plot and observe the results of your
actions, there is no guarantee that a passing agreement between vessels
made on VHF, will lead to a safe passing, until and unless you follow-up
that agreement to be sure it is being carried out and safe.


I think that they are saying that there is no way of being absolutely
certain that the Radar target is really the boat that you are talking to on
the VHF. eg, if the target makes one or two course changes that correlate
with the VHF, you are likely to become over-confident that you are talking
to the right vessel.

No, incorrect. There are any number of ways to ascertain that you are
talking to the right vessel. The most important being that you pass
accurate position/course/speed information. Once again, just like the
radar situation, you must closely monitor the situation until the danger
of collision is past.



BTW, I see you made no mention of the US Inland Rules which talk about
VHF communication for "passing agreements".



Well, I wouldn't, would I? I don't know anything about them. They sound
like they are a bit dangerous, and they might fall short of international
safety standards.

Then you have lost this part of the argument with Joe, since the waters
he was generally discussing involved US "Inland Rules" which allow
passing signals to be made via VHF. I personally would not consider them
to be in the least bit dangerous ( with previously mentioned proviso's)
and in fact much safer when properly used, and don't think they fall
short in the least bit, with international standards as you will
probably find most pilots/ships use voice communication, nowadays to
communicate passing information, rather than whistle signals.

Again, if you are going to argue about a set of conditions (US inland
rivers/shipping channels [joe]) that you may not be familiar with, you
must understand that conditions/practice/rules may vary as to what you
are used to.


otn

"Donal" wrote in message ...
Joe has told us that he uses his VHF, in fog, as his "hearing" lookout.

He is stupid enough to believe that he complies with Rule 5 of the CollRegs
which state:-
=====================================
"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and
hearing as
well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances
and
conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk
of
collision."
=====================================
What do the experts say about the use of a VHF in fog?

Guess what, they say that Joe is a menace! Here's a link!

http://www.seamanship.co.uk/M_Notice...ion/pdf/MGN167
.pdf

"Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision
avoidance, the
provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost, as
misunderstandings
can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem."

And Joe's incompetence is further demonstrated by this little snippet:-

"There have been a significant number of
collisions where subsequent investigation has
found that at some stage before impact, one or
both parties were using VHF radio in an
attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF
radio in these circumstances is not always
helpful and may even prove to be dangerous."

So, Joe's use of the VHF is "dangerous"!

The UK's Marine & Coastguard Agency obviously think that Joe represents a
Clear and Imminent threat to American sailors.

Perhaps Jeff, Joe, or otn, can produce a link which shows that the US
Coastguard thinks that Joe's behaviour is legal???


Bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaahaaaaaa!

Regards


Donal
--

Donal your name calling is quite childish.

The rule states
"as well as by all available means appropriate " VHF Radar ect. If
you can not hear anything but your vessel then listening is not one of
the available means that would be appropriate to avoid collision is
it?.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

"Joe" wrote in message
m...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
Joe has told us that he uses his VHF, in fog, as his "hearing" lookout.

He is stupid enough to believe that he complies with Rule 5 of the
CollRegs
which state:-
=====================================
"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and
hearing as
well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing
circumstances
and
conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the
risk
of
collision."
=====================================
What do the experts say about the use of a VHF in fog?

Guess what, they say that Joe is a menace! Here's a link!


http://www.seamanship.co.uk/M_Notice...ion/pdf/MGN167
.pdf

"Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision
avoidance, the
provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost, as
misunderstandings
can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem."

And Joe's incompetence is further demonstrated by this little snippet:-

"There have been a significant number of
collisions where subsequent investigation has
found that at some stage before impact, one or
both parties were using VHF radio in an
attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF
radio in these circumstances is not always
helpful and may even prove to be dangerous."

So, Joe's use of the VHF is "dangerous"!

The UK's Marine & Coastguard Agency obviously think that Joe represents
a
Clear and Imminent threat to American sailors.

Perhaps Jeff, Joe, or otn, can produce a link which shows that the US
Coastguard thinks that Joe's behaviour is legal???


Bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaahaaaaaa!

Regards


Donal
--

Donal your name calling is quite childish.

"...fire with fire"!

I am conducting this discussion according to *your* rules.


The rule states
"as well as by all available means appropriate " VHF Radar ect. If
you can not hear anything but your vessel then listening is not one of
the available means that would be appropriate to avoid collision is
it?.


You are not even trying to hear anything!!! You Also omitted the first part
of the rule!

"***Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and
hearing*** as well as by all available means appropriate ...."

Furthermore, is it impossible to hear anything because you are going at full
belt? If you reduced your speed from 25 kts, to say 6 kts, would a proper
lookout be able to hear other fog horns?


You seem very willing to accept the bit of Rule 5 that start with "as well
as....". Why don't you accept the bit that starts with "Every vessel
**shall** .."?

The UK's Marine & Coastguard Agency (MCA) is the official body that is
responsible for maritime safety in UK waters. They have issued a bulletin
that highlights the dangers of your approach to navigation. I've posted a
link to the bulletin,
http://www.seamanship.co.uk/M_Notice...ion/pdf/MGN167
, and you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge it. The MCA have quoted
examples of unnecessary collisions that were caused by people who, like you,
were so irresponsible that they used VHF as their "hearing" watch.

Perhaps you didn't read the link?


Regards


Donal
--

"Donal"

Lanod posted this fake link with no usefull info what so ever,

http://www.seamanship.co.uk/M_Notice...ion/pdf/MGN167


Guess they change the web-site eh Lanod?

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal"

Lanod posted this fake link with no usefull info what so ever,

Sorry! It was there yesterday. I checked it. Honestly.



http://www.seamanship.co.uk/M_Notice...ion/pdf/MGN167


Guess they change the web-site eh Lanod?

Try this.
https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4...n03/167%20.pdf

Fortunately, the MCA still have the warning on their site!!!!
They really did change the web site! it was there when I posted the link
.... honestly!!


Regards


Donal
--