Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

I mean are you kidding yourself racing a sailboat?? What's your max
speed on a mono... 8 kts?

My old Merit 22 went 13 downwind one night.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

On a trailer, on the freeway?

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
I mean are you kidding yourself racing a sailboat?? What's your max
speed on a mono... 8 kts?

My old Merit 22 went 13 downwind one night.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Jon,

Speed is a very subjective thing. A 4 minute mile is damn fast, if
you're walking!

Ole Thom

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

"Nav" wrote in message
...


Donal wrote:

"Nav" wrote in message
...

And that is between 25 -30 degrees?



Is it?

Say 1' of freeboard - I'd guess that's nearing 30 degrees. What do you
think?

It could be. I'm unlikey to be able to check it for a couple of months.

I've looked at the picture again, and zoomed in on it. The travellor is
much lower than I usually have it in those conditions.

A few years ago I was told that the boom should be on the centreline. Did I
misunderstand, or was the advice just plain wrong?

Are there any conditions where the boom should be on the centreline?

This has really got me thinking. I've never been completely happy with my
upwind performance and I've put it down to relatively cheap sails.


Regards


Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

I guess, but to get all freaked out about racing a sailboat seems out of
wack.

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Jon,

Speed is a very subjective thing. A 4 minute mile is damn fast, if
you're walking!

Ole Thom

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

No, but I'm a heel.

Oz wrote in message ...
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:53:33 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
scribbled thusly:

I guess, but to get all freaked out about racing a sailboat seems out of
wack.
Jon, you have no soul.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Donal,

From the middle to the back ender: Advice for what's its worth, upwind
sail trim.

I set the jenney first. The car to wind conditions Normal air---car set
to put the sheet at an angle to spilt the angle of the clew Hvy
Air----farther back, Lgt air___forward. This is to increase the twist
in hvy air and release pressure aloft; lgt air----baggy shape

Sheet tension; enough tension to draw the the 150% jenny to within the
distance of about two fist from touching the end of the spreaders Normal
Air. This will increase in Hvy air slightly as you ease the sheet and
open the leech. This will increase in lgt air also but the leech will
remain closed

MAIN SAIL;
Normal air shape; Upper batten should be parallel to the boom.
Boom should be released with the traveller into the slot until the main
starts to backwind at the tack edge, then should be drawn in to just
remove the back wind bubble

If this creates a heeling greater than 20 degrees I start to increase
the twist on the jenny while watching the speed on the speed-o-meter. If
heeling is decrease without speed loss, I increase twist in MAIN to
match jenny. If I lose speed, I'll increase sheet tension on jenny until
back winding Main just a little and accepting the increase in heel.

All this is being done watching the helm, which should remain neutral
and on course. ( This is where you should be able to trim course
adjustments with the traveller))

OK Donal, my friend, I've bared my soul to the group. Let's hope we get
some help to move us up in our fleets without buying a new boat (I like
my PH) You on the other hand have a damn fast boat under you. Pay
attention to the comments of the sailors in the group.

Ole Thom

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote:
No, but I'm a heel.

End of the loaf, are you??

LP

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

That's fast for your WL alright. What was the windspeed and how does it
compare to your polars?



Donal wrote:
Wind was about 17kts(T). Polars say 6.6 kts. The water was unusually flat.

The sea state can make a HUGE difference.


I think that you know the Solent, so I'll explain the circumstances. Maybe
you can make sense of them.

We were returning from Cherbourg. The wind had been WSW, F3-4-5.....
absolutely perfect. The wind eased as we approached the Isle of Wight.
The fun started shortly after we rounded Bembridge ledge. The wind moved
round to WNW, or NW, and built. Thus we had relatively flat water (12").
Suddenly, we were sailing a dinghy. I took the mainsheet, and I was working
like mad.

After reading this thread, I'm wondering if I should have been using the
traveller, instead of the mainsheet. However, the travellor isn't as easy
to control.


Having a good traveller is a necessity. You might make up for it
(somewhat) with a powerful vang, but most racer/cruisers don't have
enough leverage on the vang.

Remember that leach tension is very important. If the traveller remains
set (or the main sheeting point is fixed) and the vang is loose, when
the mainsheet is eased then the boom is going to rise, the sail will
twist, leach tension is shot (which can affect the jib shape)... the
only thing worse is to let the boat heel too far and spin out.

Having the vang very tight will help this problem, but using a traveller
is better. It's easier to control the sail twist & leach tension. Do you
have end-boom sheet or one of those miserable cabin top ones?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

No. But close...I'm on the toe rail.

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
news:REIUb.16074$EW.2894@okepread02...

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote:
No, but I'm a heel.

End of the loaf, are you??

LP

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .


Remember that leach tension is very important. If the traveller remains
set (or the main sheeting point is fixed) and the vang is loose, when
the mainsheet is eased then the boom is going to rise, the sail will
twist, leach tension is shot (which can affect the jib shape)... the
only thing worse is to let the boat heel too far and spin out.

Having the vang very tight will help this problem, but using a traveller
is better. It's easier to control the sail twist & leach tension. Do you
have end-boom sheet or one of those miserable cabin top ones?

End-boom.

However, I only use the vang when we are off the wind.

This means that when I ease the main, that it will rise.

Bearing in mind that I am usually sailing in gusty conditions, would it be
better to drop the travellor, than dump the main?



Regards

Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Can you comment on an endboom main sheet with vang on a traveler so it is
'self tending.' The variations would be the mainsheet separate from the
vang but both on travelers. The mainsheet separate from the vang with the
vang not on a traveler but led from the side of the cabin top to the boom
and back to the other side. The mainsheet led from the traveler to the end
of the boom, along the boom and down to a cabin top traveler so it can be
tensioned from either or both ends.

Anyone have experience with these sorts of setups? You may remember that
while I don't race per se I use a lot of the racing boat techniques to
improve my open ocean cruising setups.

Michael


"Donal" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .


Remember that leach tension is very important. If the traveller remains
set (or the main sheeting point is fixed) and the vang is loose, when
the mainsheet is eased then the boom is going to rise, the sail will
twist, leach tension is shot (which can affect the jib shape)... the
only thing worse is to let the boat heel too far and spin out.

Having the vang very tight will help this problem, but using a traveller
is better. It's easier to control the sail twist & leach tension. Do you
have end-boom sheet or one of those miserable cabin top ones?

End-boom.

However, I only use the vang when we are off the wind.

This means that when I ease the main, that it will rise.

Bearing in mind that I am usually sailing in gusty conditions, would it be
better to drop the travellor, than dump the main?



Regards

Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Donal wrote:
End-boom.

However, I only use the vang when we are off the wind.

This means that when I ease the main, that it will rise.

Bearing in mind that I am usually sailing in gusty conditions, would it be
better to drop the travellor, than dump the main?

Depends ;) The stock answer is that it is better to drop the traveller
and maintain the same twist & leach tension, and for the most part
that's true. The exception is when you get a gust that is much stronger
and/or a big lift, that will knock the boat over even with the traveller
all the way to lee. Then you do want the sail to twist dramatically,
because that dumps pressure on the upper part of the sail where the wind
has the most leverage to heel the boat, it relieves the sudden weather
helm, and it maintains drive in the lower sections instead of just
flogging the whole sail. The problem is that with many rigs, the jib
then becomes a bag and must also be eased (or given a heave on the
barber hauler).

Also when it's choppy and the boat is pitching appreciably, you want
more twist so the traveller should be set higher, and vang looser, than
in smooth water.

Oz1 ia right about steering with the traveller. When you get the right
amount of helm dialed in (2 ~ 3 degrees at most), bringing the traveller
up will increase weather helm and feather the boat slightly, easing the
traveller will make her bear away. Changing the heel is part of what
does this, but you can notice the effect even if you only go for a very
slight change in heel.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Michael wrote:
Can you comment on an endboom main sheet with vang on a traveler so it is
'self tending.' The variations would be the mainsheet separate from the
vang but both on travelers. The mainsheet separate from the vang with the
vang not on a traveler but led from the side of the cabin top to the boom
and back to the other side. The mainsheet led from the traveler to the end
of the boom, along the boom and down to a cabin top traveler so it can be
tensioned from either or both ends.

Anyone have experience with these sorts of setups? You may remember that
while I don't race per se I use a lot of the racing boat techniques to
improve my open ocean cruising setups.

It sounds unnecessarily complex to me. Why have the mainsheet led to two
travellers? I can't think why you'd ever want to set the travellers
opposite each other, and setting two would be twice the work for the
same result... plus twice as many holes in the deck.

A vang led from side to side, and slightly forward of the mast, will
help hold the boom out in light air. Used to be common on some racing
dinghies. Many big cruising boats rig a preventer which will hold the
boom out but not necessarily hold it down. I've also seen big boats with
solid vangs put a bungie cord to the lowers from the solid vang to hold
the boom out. IMHO solid vangs are great.

Hopes this helps.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

DSK wrote:

Michael wrote:

Can you comment on an endboom main sheet with vang on a traveler so it is
'self tending.' The variations would be the mainsheet separate from the
vang but both on travelers. The mainsheet separate from the vang with the
vang not on a traveler but led from the side of the cabin top to the boom
and back to the other side. The mainsheet led from the traveler to the
end
of the boom, along the boom and down to a cabin top traveler so it can be
tensioned from either or both ends.

Anyone have experience with these sorts of setups? You may remember that
while I don't race per se I use a lot of the racing boat techniques to
improve my open ocean cruising setups.


It sounds unnecessarily complex to me. Why have the mainsheet led to two
travellers? I can't think why you'd ever want to set the travellers
opposite each other, and setting two would be twice the work for the
same result... plus twice as many holes in the deck.

A vang led from side to side, and slightly forward of the mast, will
help hold the boom out in light air. Used to be common on some racing
dinghies. Many big cruising boats rig a preventer which will hold the
boom out but not necessarily hold it down. I've also seen big boats with
solid vangs put a bungie cord to the lowers from the solid vang to hold
the boom out. IMHO solid vangs are great.



Must be hell of a bungie cord! Where do you get them?

Cheers

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Nav wrote:



DSK wrote:

I've also seen big boats
with solid vangs put a bungie cord to the lowers from the solid vang
to hold the boom out.


Are they trying to break the rig? Preventers should never be rigged to
stays. Where do you get these ideas?

Cheers

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Nav wrote:
Are they trying to break the rig?

Umm... no

... Preventers should never be rigged to
stays. Where do you get these ideas?

Where do you get the idea that a bungie cord is the same as a preventer?

DSK

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Isn't it stopping the boom coming aft?

Cheers

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

Are they trying to break the rig?


Umm... no

... Preventers should never be rigged to stays. Where do you get these
ideas?


Where do you get the idea that a bungie cord is the same as a preventer?

DSK

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Heel results as a function of the imbalance between Center of Resistance
(keel area) and Center of Effort (Sail Area) pivoting around a Center of
Balance. The advantage to some heel is (and this depends on the hull
design of each) the possible gain of a longer waterline thus increasing the
potential speed of the displacement hull (sq. root of WL times 1.34+/-) by
increasing the length of the wave made by the hull. In the case of non
displacement multi hulls, lifting one out of the water reduces the wetted
surface ergo less drag.

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

I've also seen big boats with
solid vangs put a bungie cord to the lowers from the solid vang to hold
the boom out.

Think I'll try that next summer.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

I have two super bungies just for that purpose. They are 1/2" by 2" thick
pieces of stretchable sort of rubber but it takes a lot of pressure to
stretch them, both about 3' long. Came with my last boat and they are
going on the new one for use as preventer snubbers. Work like a charm in
winds that are consistent.

M.

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
I've also seen big boats with
solid vangs put a bungie cord to the lowers from the solid vang to hold
the boom out.

Think I'll try that next summer.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

I hope you don't attach them to the stays.

Chees

Michael wrote:

I have two super bungies just for that purpose. They are 1/2" by 2" thick
pieces of stretchable sort of rubber but it takes a lot of pressure to
stretch them, both about 3' long. Came with my last boat and they are
going on the new one for use as preventer snubbers. Work like a charm in
winds that are consistent.

M.

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...

I've also seen big boats with
solid vangs put a bungie cord to the lowers from the solid vang to hold
the boom out.

Think I'll try that next summer.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

I think after the next working trip I'll take the boat up to Thom's harbor
and get loose foot lessons. Why re-invent the wheel when you can learn from
the master?

Michael



"Donal" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:
End-boom.

However, I only use the vang when we are off the wind.

This means that when I ease the main, that it will rise.

Bearing in mind that I am usually sailing in gusty conditions, would
it
be
better to drop the travellor, than dump the main?

Depends ;) The stock answer is that it is better to drop the traveller
and maintain the same twist & leach tension, and for the most part
that's true. The exception is when you get a gust that is much stronger
and/or a big lift, that will knock the boat over even with the traveller
all the way to lee. Then you do want the sail to twist dramatically,
because that dumps pressure on the upper part of the sail where the wind
has the most leverage to heel the boat, it relieves the sudden weather
helm, and it maintains drive in the lower sections instead of just
flogging the whole sail. The problem is that with many rigs, the jib
then becomes a bag and must also be eased (or given a heave on the
barber hauler).

Also when it's choppy and the boat is pitching appreciably, you want
more twist so the traveller should be set higher, and vang looser, than
in smooth water.

Why? (I'd assume that you need maximum power to get through the chop).




Oz1 ia right about steering with the traveller. When you get the right
amount of helm dialed in (2 ~ 3 degrees at most), bringing the traveller
up will increase weather helm and feather the boat slightly, easing the
traveller will make her bear away. Changing the heel is part of what
does this, but you can notice the effect even if you only go for a very
slight change in heel.

As I said to Thom earlier, there is great info in this group.

It's become very clear that I have been using the mainsheet, when I should
have been using the travellor. It also seems that I have been sailing
with
the travellor set too high. I might need to add more pulleys to the
travellor - or maybe it will be easier to adjust when it is being used a
bit
lower.


Regards


Donal
--




Thanks.



Regards


Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Donal,

Good advice from Doug. The exception for me is the "GUST" If I'm
working up wind I like to take advantage to work a little higher into
the wind, if I can on the increased pressure, by feathering into the
wind while releasing heeling with rudder action. This takes some
coordination with Main trimmer and helmsman but is do-able.

Ole Thom

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Donal,

From the middle to the back ender: Advice for what's its worth, upwind
sail trim.

I set the jenney first. The car to wind conditions Normal air---car set
to put the sheet at an angle to spilt the angle of the clew Hvy
Air----farther back, Lgt air___forward. This is to increase the twist
in hvy air and release pressure aloft; lgt air----baggy shape

Thanks, Thom. That makes sense.



Sheet tension; enough tension to draw the the 150% jenny to within the
distance of about two fist from touching the end of the spreaders Normal
Air. This will increase in Hvy air slightly as you ease the sheet and
open the leech. This will increase in lgt air also but the leech will
remain closed

MAIN SAIL;
Normal air shape; Upper batten should be parallel to the boom.
Boom should be released with the traveller into the slot until the main
starts to backwind at the tack edge, then should be drawn in to just
remove the back wind bubble

If this creates a heeling greater than 20 degrees I start to increase
the twist on the jenny while watching the speed on the speed-o-meter. If
heeling is decrease without speed loss, I increase twist in MAIN to
match jenny. If I lose speed, I'll increase sheet tension on jenny until
back winding Main just a little and accepting the increase in heel.

All this is being done watching the helm, which should remain neutral
and on course. ( This is where you should be able to trim course
adjustments with the traveller))

OK Donal, my friend, I've bared my soul to the group. Let's hope we get
some help to move us up in our fleets without buying a new boat (I like
my PH) You on the other hand have a damn fast boat under you. Pay
attention to the comments of the sailors in the group.

It's been a very good couple of weeks for trimming advice.

I'm looking forward to trying it all out.

I'll report back to the group as soon as I get out on the water again.....
hopefully, in the next few weeks!!!!




Regards


Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:
End-boom.

However, I only use the vang when we are off the wind.

This means that when I ease the main, that it will rise.

Bearing in mind that I am usually sailing in gusty conditions, would it
be
better to drop the travellor, than dump the main?

Depends ;) The stock answer is that it is better to drop the traveller
and maintain the same twist & leach tension, and for the most part
that's true. The exception is when you get a gust that is much stronger
and/or a big lift, that will knock the boat over even with the traveller
all the way to lee. Then you do want the sail to twist dramatically,
because that dumps pressure on the upper part of the sail where the wind
has the most leverage to heel the boat, it relieves the sudden weather
helm, and it maintains drive in the lower sections instead of just
flogging the whole sail. The problem is that with many rigs, the jib
then becomes a bag and must also be eased (or given a heave on the
barber hauler).

Also when it's choppy and the boat is pitching appreciably, you want
more twist so the traveller should be set higher, and vang looser, than
in smooth water.

Why? (I'd assume that you need maximum power to get through the chop).




Oz1 ia right about steering with the traveller. When you get the right
amount of helm dialed in (2 ~ 3 degrees at most), bringing the traveller
up will increase weather helm and feather the boat slightly, easing the
traveller will make her bear away. Changing the heel is part of what
does this, but you can notice the effect even if you only go for a very
slight change in heel.

As I said to Thom earlier, there is great info in this group.

It's become very clear that I have been using the mainsheet, when I should
have been using the travellor. It also seems that I have been sailing with
the travellor set too high. I might need to add more pulleys to the
travellor - or maybe it will be easier to adjust when it is being used a bit
lower.


Regards


Donal
--




Thanks.



Regards


Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Sorry for not answering sooner. Didn't see this post way up at the top.


Also when it's choppy and the boat is pitching appreciably, you want
more twist so the traveller should be set higher, and vang looser, than
in smooth water.


Donal wrote:
Why? (I'd assume that you need maximum power to get through the chop).

In chop, when the mast is weaving around through the air, more twist
does give more power.



It's become very clear that I have been using the mainsheet, when I should
have been using the travellor.

Or setting the vang up a lot harder.

... It also seems that I have been sailing with
the travellor set too high. I might need to add more pulleys to the
travellor - or maybe it will be easier to adjust when it is being used a bit
lower.

With end-boom sheeting on a 33 footer I'd think that 3:1 should be OK if
it has good bearings. It shouldn't be difficult or expensive to up it to
4:1 but I don't see much reason to go beyond that. When not loaded, you
should be able to push the traveller from side to side easily with one
finger. Also it should not have much play... maybe the bearings are shot?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Sorry for not answering sooner. Didn't see this post way up at the top.


Also when it's choppy and the boat is pitching appreciably, you want
more twist so the traveller should be set higher, and vang looser, than
in smooth water.


Donal wrote:
Why? (I'd assume that you need maximum power to get through the chop).

In chop, when the mast is weaving around through the air, more twist
does give more power.

Is this easy to explain? I would have assumed that more twist would mean
less power.






It's become very clear that I have been using the mainsheet, when I
should
have been using the travellor.

Or setting the vang up a lot harder.

I haven't been using the vang at all when beating. I will try this, in
conjunction with with a lower travellor, the next time that I go out.




... It also seems that I have been sailing with
the travellor set too high. I might need to add more pulleys to the
travellor - or maybe it will be easier to adjust when it is being used a
bit
lower.

With end-boom sheeting on a 33 footer I'd think that 3:1 should be OK if
it has good bearings. It shouldn't be difficult or expensive to up it to
4:1 but I don't see much reason to go beyond that. When not loaded, you
should be able to push the traveller from side to side easily with one
finger. Also it should not have much play... maybe the bearings are shot?

I apply silicone grease a couple of times a season. Afterwards, a little
flick of the index finger will send the car to the far end of the track.
Also, I've had the boat from new, so I am fairly confident that the bearings
are OK. They are not noticably worse than when the boat was new.

Regards


Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

In chop, when the mast is weaving around through the air, more twist
does give more power.


Donal wrote:
Is this easy to explain? I would have assumed that more twist would mean
less power.

Well, the easiest way to explain it is to say, "Buddy Melges says so"
and it seems to work... but that's a cop-put isn't it...

To my possibly limited understanding, when the boat is both pitching and
rocking, the flow across the sail is very inconsistant. Loosening the
vang allows more twist and opens the leach... you don't want it totally
loose, just 'somewhat looser' than would be good for the wind strength
otherwise. The greater twist allows more of the sail to be at the right
angle of attack at any given instant, since it is changing widely as the
boat rocks & pitches. The open leach allows flow to re-establish itself
as far as possible, as quickly as possible, and allows the pressure on
the upwind side to flow out the back and add drive.

BTW trying to point very high in these circumstances doesn't work as well.


I apply silicone grease a couple of times a season. Afterwards, a little
flick of the index finger will send the car to the far end of the track.
Also, I've had the boat from new, so I am fairly confident that the bearings
are OK. They are not noticably worse than when the boat was new.

Sounds like the bearings are definitely not shot!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Donal,

It is my understanding; that in a pitching and rocking mode, the sailing
groove has to be opened. Made wider. Ths is done with a looser leech

Ole Thom