wrote in message
...
Here's a posting of interest from a forum where the purchase of
cruising sails is under discussion:

Just make sure you know who is really making your sails. We bought a
new main 2 years ago, and out in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico
every single piece of webbing holding the slides on disintegrated! I
was later told that the sail was farmed out to a cheap shop in Hong
Kong, and I got inferior materials. Just be careful.


I wonder!

Last week, the UK agency for Hong Kong Sails offered my club a couple of
"discount" vouchers.

We discussed the matter at the club, and of course, we didn't come to any
firm conclusions. How could we, without actually seeing the sails?

A couple of valid points were made.

Some lofts insist on visiting your boat to take measurements. This visit
must cost about $200, maybe $300. Not all buyers are looking for the
absolute limit of performance from their Dacron sails. Furthermore, many
sailors are competent enough to take their own measurements.

The other main point concerned the labour vs material costs. If labour
costs represent a high proportion of the price of a sail, then it would be
easy to reduce costs, and maintain quality, by moving the manufacturing to
China. However, if the material represents the bulk of the manufacturing
cost, then Hong Kong sails would have to be producing inferior quality
sails.


Regards


Donal
--

wrote
Just make sure you know who is really making your sails. We bought a
new main 2 years ago, and out in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico
every single piece of webbing holding the slides on disintegrated! I
was later told that the sail was farmed out to a cheap shop in Hong
Kong, and I got inferior materials. Just be careful.

I hope you got the thing stitched back together, only this time with the good
stuff.


Donal wrote:
I wonder!

Last week, the UK agency for Hong Kong Sails offered my club a couple of
"discount" vouchers.

We discussed the matter at the club, and of course, we didn't come to any
firm conclusions. How could we, without actually seeing the sails?

A couple of valid points were made.

Some lofts insist on visiting your boat to take measurements. This visit
must cost about $200, maybe $300. Not all buyers are looking for the
absolute limit of performance from their Dacron sails. Furthermore, many
sailors are competent enough to take their own measurements.

True. But then there are a lot who merely think they are.



The other main point concerned the labour vs material costs. If labour
costs represent a high proportion of the price of a sail, then it would be
easy to reduce costs, and maintain quality, by moving the manufacturing to
China. However, if the material represents the bulk of the manufacturing
cost, then Hong Kong sails would have to be producing inferior quality
sails.

Well, having a sailmkaer come on board your boat is labor... and can't be
farmed out overseas. But he can do things for your sails that cannot be done
any other way.

*Good* materials are expensive. We are friends with a couple that runs a local
canvas shop, and they use an expensive UV resistant thread... so expensive
that the thread for stitching up a dodger & bimini for a 40 footer is $200
wholesale. How much more would be in a sail for that same boat? It's a
significant part of the cost.

I've talked with (& sailed with too) a lot of people who seem to want to brag
about how cheaply they got their sails. I always smile & nod politely but
thinking 'what's the point? Would $X more break the bank when you've already
paid for a $YY,000 boat?' I have also sailed with some people who have
horribly bagged out worthless sails, often they want advice on adjustments &
trim. One guy I sailed with last year had his boat's original sails from 25
years ago... the thing would not tack through 110 degrees, the main was so
baggy. But we enjoyed sailing all the same. It's a question of what you want.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
...


wrote
Just make sure you know who is really making your sails. We bought a
new main 2 years ago, and out in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico
every single piece of webbing holding the slides on disintegrated! I
was later told that the sail was farmed out to a cheap shop in Hong
Kong, and I got inferior materials. Just be careful.

I hope you got the thing stitched back together, only this time with the
good
stuff.


Donal wrote:
I wonder!

Last week, the UK agency for Hong Kong Sails offered my club a couple
of
"discount" vouchers.

We discussed the matter at the club, and of course, we didn't come to
any
firm conclusions. How could we, without actually seeing the sails?

A couple of valid points were made.

Some lofts insist on visiting your boat to take measurements. This
visit
must cost about $200, maybe $300. Not all buyers are looking for the
absolute limit of performance from their Dacron sails. Furthermore,
many
sailors are competent enough to take their own measurements.

True. But then there are a lot who merely think they are.



The other main point concerned the labour vs material costs. If labour
costs represent a high proportion of the price of a sail, then it would
be
easy to reduce costs, and maintain quality, by moving the manufacturing
to
China. However, if the material represents the bulk of the
manufacturing
cost, then Hong Kong sails would have to be producing inferior quality
sails.

Well, having a sailmkaer come on board your boat is labor... and can't be
farmed out overseas. But he can do things for your sails that cannot be
done
any other way.

*Good* materials are expensive. We are friends with a couple that runs a
local
canvas shop, and they use an expensive UV resistant thread... so expensive
that the thread for stitching up a dodger & bimini for a 40 footer is $200
wholesale. How much more would be in a sail for that same boat? It's a
significant part of the cost.

I've talked with (& sailed with too) a lot of people who seem to want to
brag
about how cheaply they got their sails. I always smile & nod politely but
thinking 'what's the point? Would $X more break the bank when you've
already
paid for a $YY,000 boat?' I have also sailed with some people who have
horribly bagged out worthless sails, often they want advice on adjustments
&
trim. One guy I sailed with last year had his boat's original sails from
25
years ago... the thing would not tack through 110 degrees, the main was so
baggy. But we enjoyed sailing all the same. It's a question of what you
want.

12 years ago, I sold an American made product for $8000. Today, I can sell
you the same (Chinese made) thing for $30.00. I can also afford to give you
a free "lifetime guarantee" because I have total confidence in the cheap
product.

I'm a little cynical about the whole "quality" issue. If these sails have a
high labour cost, then the Hong Kong version might be very good value. Of
course, if the material represents the bulk of the cost, then Hong Kong
Sails couldn't produce a good sail economically. Perhaps you could ask your
sailmaking friends what the labour percentage is, in a set of sails?


Regards


Donal
--

Donal, I was not meaning to ignore your question. Got a bit distracted, s'all.

Donal wrote:

12 years ago, I sold an American made product for $8000. Today, I can sell
you the same (Chinese made) thing for $30.00. I can also afford to give you
a free "lifetime guarantee" because I have total confidence in the cheap
product.


I'm a little cynical about the whole "quality" issue.

I can see why, if the above is true. How do you account for this tremendous
change in price?


If these sails have a
high labour cost, then the Hong Kong version might be very good value. Of
course, if the material represents the bulk of the cost, then Hong Kong
Sails couldn't produce a good sail economically. Perhaps you could ask your
sailmaking friends what the labour percentage is, in a set of sails?

I'll ask, but I don't know if we'll get a meaningful answer. I don't think that
materials represents over 50% of costs, but I'm sure it's quite significant. And
the labor is still very expensive, enough that with all else being equal, Hong
Kong (or other cheap labor place) sails could be a good value. With modern
communication & transportation being what it is, you could have a local
sailmaker come on board your boat, measure the rig and design your sails, and
have them made more cheaply in Hong Kong (and split the difference)... hey wait
a minute, isn't that what some saimakers do?!?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The type of sails a person has is an
easy way to tell what kind of person
they are.

It is important to at least have white
sails in good shape, because if you are
fighting your way off a lee shore with
lame sails, you will make too much leeway,
and if they blow out, worse can happen.

A serious sailor has good sails, or
at least a plan to buy good sails at
the first opportunity. While a cheezy
sailor has cheezy sails.

I helped deliver a boat once with a friend.
He bought used sails for his boat. After
seeing his sails for only a few minutes I
knew that one of the two sails was going
to come apart that day.

It was blowing Southwesterly about 25+
knots or so, coming out of Buzzzards Bay.
So when the genoa came apart I was ready,
I was at the helm and bore off a milli-
second later, to make it easier to furl
up the shreads.

After that we had to turn the motor on, as
the boat wouldn't point in those seas.
I think we were just east of the "Hen and
Chickens" or "Old Cock" when it happened.
Once past, we were able to crack off and
shut down the motor and made very good time
under main alone and got in just at sunset.

Since the genoa wouldn't furl very well, we
had lot of windage and that made docking
tricky. My friend was an Ok sailor and he
did get it in the slip ok, and was wise enough
to refurl it a little tighter, in the channel,
before docking.

By the way, the main was for another boat
and had a foot and head that were too short.
What a joke! I have to remember to give him
some more grief about that. I'll be helping
he deliver his new boat, one of the Benty-toad
ocean rated boats, from Annapolis to Rhode
Island this spring. At least this boat will
have sails less than 20 years old.

One other intersting thing happened that day.
When sailing with someone new, there are many
clues to the expereince level of other sailors.

At one point I found myself on the leeward
side of the boat, rail down. I put my hand
up and the third man on the boat, Dave, without
hesitation, hoisted me to the high side. A
good sailor reacts quickly. It is always nice
to have good sailors on board.

Bart Senior

DSK wrote

I've talked with (& sailed with too) a lot of people who seem to want to brag
about how cheaply they got their sails. I always smile & nod politely but
thinking 'what's the point? Would $X more break the bank when you've already
paid for a $YY,000 boat?' I have also sailed with some people who have
horribly bagged out worthless sails, often they want advice on adjustments &
trim. One guy I sailed with last year had his boat's original sails from 25
years ago... the thing would not tack through 110 degrees, the main was so
baggy. But we enjoyed sailing all the same. It's a question of what you want.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

bart sr, if you want people to listen to you don't tell b/s as you did below.
(would bart jr tell such tales? probably not.)

The type of sails a person has is an
easy way to tell what kind of person
they are.

It is important to at least have white
sails in good shape, because if you are
fighting your way off a lee shore with
lame sails, you will make too much leeway,
and if they blow out, worse can happen.

A serious sailor has good sails, or
at least a plan to buy good sails at
the first opportunity. While a cheezy
sailor has cheezy sails.

I helped deliver a boat once with a friend.
He bought used sails for his boat. After
seeing his sails for only a few minutes I
knew that one of the two sails was going
to come apart that day.

It was blowing Southwesterly about 25+
knots or so, coming out of Buzzzards Bay.
So when the genoa came apart I was ready,
I was at the helm and bore off a milli-
second later, to make it easier to furl
up the shreads.

After that we had to turn the motor on, as
the boat wouldn't point in those seas.
I think we were just east of the "Hen and
Chickens" or "Old Cock" when it happened.
Once past, we were able to crack off and
shut down the motor and made very good time
under main alone and got in just at sunset.

Since the genoa wouldn't furl very well, we
had lot of windage and that made docking
tricky. My friend was an Ok sailor and he
did get it in the slip ok, and was wise enough
to refurl it a little tighter, in the channel,
before docking.

By the way, the main was for another boat
and had a foot and head that were too short.
What a joke! I have to remember to give him
some more grief about that. I'll be helping
he deliver his new boat, one of the Benty-toad
ocean rated boats, from Annapolis to Rhode
Island this spring. At least this boat will
have sails less than 20 years old.

One other intersting thing happened that day.
When sailing with someone new, there are many
clues to the expereince level of other sailors.

At one point I found myself on the leeward
side of the boat, rail down. I put my hand
up and the third man on the boat, Dave, without
hesitation, hoisted me to the high side. A
good sailor reacts quickly. It is always nice
to have good sailors on board.

Bart Senior

DSK wrote

I've talked with (& sailed with too) a lot of people who seem to want to
brag
about how cheaply they got their sails. I always smile & nod politely but
thinking 'what's the point? Would $X more break the bank when you've
already
paid for a $YY,000 boat?' I have also sailed with some people who have
horribly bagged out worthless sails, often they want advice on adjustments
&
trim. One guy I sailed with last year had his boat's original sails from 25
years ago... the thing would not tack through 110 degrees, the main was so
baggy. But we enjoyed sailing all the same. It's a question of what you
want.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Go away Jax. You're an idiot and a bore.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
bart sr, if you want people to listen to you don't tell b/s as you did
below.
(would bart jr tell such tales? probably not.)

The type of sails a person has is an
easy way to tell what kind of person
they are.

It is important to at least have white
sails in good shape, because if you are
fighting your way off a lee shore with
lame sails, you will make too much leeway,
and if they blow out, worse can happen.

A serious sailor has good sails, or
at least a plan to buy good sails at
the first opportunity. While a cheezy
sailor has cheezy sails.

I helped deliver a boat once with a friend.
He bought used sails for his boat. After
seeing his sails for only a few minutes I
knew that one of the two sails was going
to come apart that day.

It was blowing Southwesterly about 25+
knots or so, coming out of Buzzzards Bay.
So when the genoa came apart I was ready,
I was at the helm and bore off a milli-
second later, to make it easier to furl
up the shreads.

After that we had to turn the motor on, as
the boat wouldn't point in those seas.
I think we were just east of the "Hen and
Chickens" or "Old Cock" when it happened.
Once past, we were able to crack off and
shut down the motor and made very good time
under main alone and got in just at sunset.

Since the genoa wouldn't furl very well, we
had lot of windage and that made docking
tricky. My friend was an Ok sailor and he
did get it in the slip ok, and was wise enough
to refurl it a little tighter, in the channel,
before docking.

By the way, the main was for another boat
and had a foot and head that were too short.
What a joke! I have to remember to give him
some more grief about that. I'll be helping
he deliver his new boat, one of the Benty-toad
ocean rated boats, from Annapolis to Rhode
Island this spring. At least this boat will
have sails less than 20 years old.

One other intersting thing happened that day.
When sailing with someone new, there are many
clues to the expereince level of other sailors.

At one point I found myself on the leeward
side of the boat, rail down. I put my hand
up and the third man on the boat, Dave, without
hesitation, hoisted me to the high side. A
good sailor reacts quickly. It is always nice
to have good sailors on board.

Bart Senior

DSK wrote

I've talked with (& sailed with too) a lot of people who seem to want
to
brag
about how cheaply they got their sails. I always smile & nod politely
but
thinking 'what's the point? Would $X more break the bank when you've
already
paid for a $YY,000 boat?' I have also sailed with some people who have
horribly bagged out worthless sails, often they want advice on
adjustments
&
trim. One guy I sailed with last year had his boat's original sails
from 25
years ago... the thing would not tack through 110 degrees, the main was
so
baggy. But we enjoyed sailing all the same. It's a question of what you
want.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

N1EE wrote:
The type of sails a person has is an
easy way to tell what kind of person
they are.

That may be a little harsh, Bart...


It is important to at least have white
sails in good shape, because if you are
fighting your way off a lee shore with
lame sails, you will make too much leeway,
and if they blow out, worse can happen.

Careful there, next thing you know MC will accuse you of saying that
tanbark sails can put boat onto a lee shore!

But it's true, a blown-out sail is something that you have to deal with
right away, and if it happens in the middle of another ongoing
emergency, it could put the whole situation over the top.

OTOH on a blustery afternoon race or daysail, a blown-out sail can be
fun & exciting... as long as you're not the one paying for it


(more below)

I helped deliver a boat once with a friend.
He bought used sails for his boat. After
seeing his sails for only a few minutes I
knew that one of the two sails was going
to come apart that day.

It was blowing Southwesterly about 25+
knots or so, coming out of Buzzzards Bay.
So when the genoa came apart I was ready,
I was at the helm and bore off a milli-
second later, to make it easier to furl
up the shreads.

Interesting... I've never rolled up a blown-out sail on a roller furler.
That must have been a little quicker to get out of the way, but what
about setting a new sail?


After that we had to turn the motor on, as
the boat wouldn't point in those seas.
I think we were just east of the "Hen and
Chickens" or "Old Cock" when it happened.
Once past, we were able to crack off and
shut down the motor and made very good time
under main alone and got in just at sunset.

Since the genoa wouldn't furl very well, we
had lot of windage and that made docking
tricky. My friend was an Ok sailor and he
did get it in the slip ok, and was wise enough
to refurl it a little tighter, in the channel,
before docking.

By the way, the main was for another boat
and had a foot and head that were too short.
What a joke! I have to remember to give him
some more grief about that. I'll be helping
he deliver his new boat, one of the Benty-toad
ocean rated boats, from Annapolis to Rhode
Island this spring. At least this boat will
have sails less than 20 years old.

One other intersting thing happened that day.
When sailing with someone new, there are many
clues to the expereince level of other sailors.

At one point I found myself on the leeward
side of the boat, rail down. I put my hand
up and the third man on the boat, Dave, without
hesitation, hoisted me to the high side. A
good sailor reacts quickly. It is always nice
to have good sailors on board.

Another thing is that good sailors can anticipate.

I just heard from a friend who was at Key West Race Week on a boat he
has not crewed on before... since he was the lightest, they made him the
jib trimmer, because the jib trimmer sits to leeward... says it was very
wet down there and his arms will be sore 'till after St Patricks Day...



JAXAshby wrote:
bart sr, if you want people to listen to you don't tell b/s

Hey Jax, just because fantasize about sailing in rough conditions,
doesn't mean that others never actually do it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Donal, I was not meaning to ignore your question. Got a bit distracted,
s'all.

Donal wrote:

12 years ago, I sold an American made product for $8000. Today, I can
sell
you the same (Chinese made) thing for $30.00. I can also afford to give
you
a free "lifetime guarantee" because I have total confidence in the cheap
product.


I'm a little cynical about the whole "quality" issue.

I can see why, if the above is true. How do you account for this
tremendous
change in price?

There are a coulple of reasons.
1) Reduced chip count. i.e. advances in technology means that only a few
components are now required. These components do not cost a lot to make.
The product that I sold 12 years ago had hundreds of chips, and many
hundreds of discrete components. (discrete = non integrated, or single
function. eg resistor). Each manufacturer had to spend many months on R&D.
The volumes were relatively low. So, the finished product had high
manufacturing, and high R&D costs.

Nowadays, the chip manufacturers have 90% of the functionality on a single
chip. Furthermore, they publish the entire circuitry and PCB layout that is
required for a finished product. The manufacturer only needs to add a power
supply, and a casing. This means that a modern Chinese factory can get into
production within days of a chip manufacturer releasing a new chip.

The Chinese approach to pricing seems rather primitive. They appear to
take their manufacturing costs, and add 20% (maybe less). They depend on
volume sales. A typical American, or European, manufacturer would need
about 60% gross margin to stay in business.

2) Labour costs are low.





If these sails have a
high labour cost, then the Hong Kong version might be very good value.
Of
course, if the material represents the bulk of the cost, then Hong Kong
Sails couldn't produce a good sail economically. Perhaps you could ask
your
sailmaking friends what the labour percentage is, in a set of sails?

I'll ask, but I don't know if we'll get a meaningful answer. I don't think
that
materials represents over 50% of costs, but I'm sure it's quite
significant.

Ok. So you can see that if the HK labour +freight costs, are less than
the US labour cost, then the HK sails might represent better value for
money.


And
the labor is still very expensive, enough that with all else being equal,
Hong
Kong (or other cheap labor place) sails could be a good value. With modern
communication & transportation being what it is, you could have a local
sailmaker come on board your boat, measure the rig and design your sails,
and
have them made more cheaply in Hong Kong (and split the difference)... hey
wait
a minute, isn't that what some saimakers do?!?

Sounds like a very good idea - if the labour cost is a high percentage of
the total cost of a sail.




Regards


Donal
--

Donal,

The topic was Neal's sails;

Those HK sails have me worried, as well as Neal's faith in them. I hope
they stand up to usage?

I have my doubts. I also worry about Neal's evaluation of sails

I feel a certain amount of responsibility for the sails he got. I
replaced my Main sail and posted my screwup of getting a free footed
Main rather than a shelved main,as I had, because I didn't mention it.

I tried to tell him he didn't have a shelved main. I think it was also
Loco that tried to tell him. He had a full bolt rope footed main. ( I
guess his Main was so blown it looked like a shelf) He specified a
shelve and got it.

I was shocked when I saw the pictures of the Tack and the Clew, They
were made with only a single reinforcement tape and no extra stitching.
This isn't good enough!!! The sail he got, unlike his old sail with the
bolt rope, has only two point attachment on the foot of the sail. A
single tape without at least six rows of stitching is going to work
loose and fail. The shelve gives no support. The Tack & Clew on my North
main each have five reinforcing tapes.

He shopped around after asking the price I paid and was very proud of
the bargain he got. Not only did he beat my price on the Main he also
got a working jib.

I hope Neal's sail hold up but I Don't Think so! I'm pretty sure we'll
never know. I pray I'm wrong.

Anyhow, This was about quality and cost. I got a very good price on my
new Main plus an allowance on my old. I'm pretty sure my sail was fab'd
in the Pacific but by North and to North's Spec's. They saved on labor
but not to the point of North's reputation

Ole Thom