What makes a boat weatherly?
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
snip
Bigger is better, but it ain't evrything. The old square riggers were much
longer on the waterline than any modern sailboats, and they were not
weatherly
at all by comparison.

Valid point! I now see the "windward" aspect of *weatherly* a little more
clearly.



Regards


Donal
--

What makes a boat weatherly?
 

What makes a boat weatherly?
 

Frank Maier wrote:

Ole Thom pretty much answered for me. I've raced and cruised on both
masthead and fractional rigs. I guess I answered "masthead", assuming
as my default a full crew of experienced sailors who'd manually deal
with changing conditions on a constant basis. Then you don't need the
fractional rig to "automatically depower" for you.

Conventional wisdom has it that mast head rigs will point higher, and I think
that's true in ideal pointing conditions. But I think the frac rig is more
versatile.



If we're down to the level of the "real" world, then theoretical
factors become less important than human factors, like Ole Thom's
comfort level with his boat as it is. If I were buying for myself
tomorrow, I'd get a Freedom 38, which is not gonna be as "weatherly"
as either a masthead or fractional Bermudan rig; but it meets a whole
lot of other pragmatic criteria.

heh heh the old Fredom 40 cat-ketch is one of my dream boats. They don't point
so high either, but it's a marvelous cruising rig. Sturdy and very easy to
handle.

It's also a very good point that knowing how to get the optimum out of the rig
you have is more important than pining away for some theoretical ideal. There
are too many sailors who study teensy detailed ways of scrooching some small
improvement out of their boat, when their basic sailing methods are notably
below optimal. I remember acting as 'guest skipper' on a very nice European
designed and built racer-cruiser, a boat that should have had good performance
but usually did very poorly in casual races. The usual skipper stood at my
elbow and appeared to be very interested in how I drove the boat and had the
sails trimmed. He usally cranked everything in hard and made the boat heel
'way over, when I skippered we did much better. The next day, I was sailing on
another boat and he went back to doing the same old thing.... and was
complaining about it the rest of the season.

Thom's keel mod is a good idea IMHO because he does not sail in the conditions
the boat was designed for, so it benefitted from increased keel area. For most
sailors, I don't think such a modification would be a good idea.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

What makes a boat weatherly?
 

DSK wrote:


To improve the weatherliness of any boat, start first with the rig.
The mast should be straight & vertically centered... you'd be amazed
at how many sailors, even racers, are breezing around with crooked
and/or slanted masts.

Doug, I am surprised at this comment and I'll disagree with it for a
number of reasons: Bending the mast aft can flatten the main. A flatter
main is better at high wind strengths -and apparent wind is highest when
going upwind. Flattening the main also helps keep the slot open to
increase the efficiency of the foresail. The latter is the most
important sail for weatherliness. So by bending the mast aft, forestay
tension is increased to reduce forestay sag that reduces efficiency.
Finally, straightening the mast is not a good idea if the main sail is
old and out of shape (where the bend helps keep the draft forward) or
even not originally cut to a straight mast!

Finally, as an extra bonus, adding some mast bend can help prevent mast
inversion in severe conditions which can lead to a catastrophic collapse
(but I wouldn't expect you to know about that problem).

while most should know that the rake of the mast affects C of E and the
degree of weather helm, I'll guess that many do knot know that by giving
the boat some weather helm she climbs to windward better as the rudder
adds lift.

So, the bottom line is that it may be quite inappropriate to straighten
the mast to make the boat weatherly.

Cheers

What makes a boat weatherly?
 

DSK wrote:

Jeff Morris wrote:


So, does that mean that a catamaran that has a good VMG is more weatherly than a
monohull that points higher?


Of course not, don't be silly ;)

Actually, I'd give some consideration that the higher pointing boat would be the
more weatherly, but actual VMG should probably be the deciding factor.



No, your first guess was right : the most weatherly boat is the boat
that goes closest to the wind. As long as the DMG is to windward you can
escape a lee. A high VMG might be made by a very shallow angle to the
wind. Think about being caught in a lee bay... When you add in losses
for tacking the faster VMG might not get out...

Cheers

What makes a boat weatherly?
 

DSK wrote:
....snip...
BTW I thought Frank's answer was good. Much shorter and to the point than my
rambling posts.

Thanks, Doug; but my comments were too brusque. You actually took the
time and effort to explain some details, when by contrast I just said
something like "trim appropriately." Probably not very valuable advice
to someone who's a bit hazy on the "best" way to trim his/her boat.

Sounds like we're basically talking about the same concepts; so maybe
in either case it's a starting point for discussion/argument, like the
thread about cats vs. monohulls and pointing vs. VMG which developed
from your comments. That was good stuff.

These are the kind of threads which make this ng valuable to
participants. (Well, *this* participant, anyway.) I hadda laugh when
Bobsprit jumped in and offered his advice on how to pose a question
for discussion. Yeah, right. Like anything he's ever posted has
generated and actual discussion. It's always just looooong threads of
"my dick's the biggest" vs. "no, my dick's bigger" and "you're gay"
vs. "no, you're gay."

I'm happy to have an honest disagreement with someone. I have friends
who favor "classic cruisers" with full keels, high D/L ratios, etc.;
and we often have long "discussions" over a bottle of wine (or two)
about what constitutes the "best" sailboat. We sometimes get a bit
loud; but somehow it never degenerates into that silly ad hominem
crap.

Anyway, I'll just say that this was a good thread. I've enjoyed it and
look forward to others like it. I don't participate often; but I read
most threads here.

What makes a boat weatherly?
 

MC wrote:

Doug, I am surprised at this comment and I'll disagree with it for a
number of reasons: Bending the mast aft can flatten the main.

That isn't what I was talking about. And the sail has to be cut to take the
mast bend into account, or it doesn't work.


So, the bottom line is that it may be quite inappropriate to straighten
the mast to make the boat weatherly.

Considering that you don't know that 20 doesn't equal 15, and from what you
have said about your racing results, you have a lot more to learn than to
teach.

DSK

What makes a boat weatherly?
 

MC wrote:

DSK wrote:




while most should know that the rake of the mast affects C of E and the
degree of weather helm, I'll guess that many do knot know that by giving
the boat some weather helm she climbs to windward better as the rudder
adds lift.


I believe this to be true for full keels, but how does it work with a fin keel?

Cheers
Marty

What makes a boat weatherly?
 

Same effect. It adds lift.

Cheers MC

Martin Baxter wrote:
MC wrote:

DSK wrote:



while most should know that the rake of the mast affects C of E and the
degree of weather helm, I'll guess that many do knot know that by giving
the boat some weather helm she climbs to windward better as the rudder
adds lift.



I believe this to be true for full keels, but how does it work with a fin keel?

Cheers
Marty

What makes a boat weatherly?
 

DSK wrote:

MC wrote:


Doug, I am surprised at this comment and I'll disagree with it for a
number of reasons: Bending the mast aft can flatten the main.


That isn't what I was talking about. And the sail has to be cut to take the
mast bend into account, or it doesn't work.


So, you don't understand why bending a mast can flatten the main? Try
visiting a sail trimming site such as North -they explain it well and it
is really basic stuff.


So, the bottom line is that it may be quite inappropriate to straighten
the mast to make the boat weatherly.


Considering that you don't know that 20 doesn't equal 15, and from what you
have said about your racing results, you have a lot more to learn than to
teach.

Aww, don't pout so. Why do you continue with this nonsense. Look up the
boat I named and you'll find it's not 24' nor 20' long. These are your
fabrications getting in the way of truth again. Sorry, you lose again.

Cheers