Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

In article ,
Thom Stewart wrote:

Peter,

Once again you say we let a lot of "them go" Peter I was in WW2 and we
put a lot of JAP to death. How many did you Down-under fighters sentence
to death?

Who was in control of Japan, Thom? You guys were. And the Aussies shot
a lot of the Japanese out of hand. We tried others, found them guilty
and dealt with them. But *you* guys controlled the Japanese homeland.

Don't make stupid statements about the Yanks when you've fallen way
short of their actions.

Thom, we had a population of 6 million people. What was the population
of the USA in 1941? We were in the *World War* 2 years before you were.
The Japanese had invaded mainland China - Rape of Nanking mean anything
to you? - Manchuria, earlier part of what was then Imperial Russia.
They were aggressive and expansion-minded. Given our population base
and resources, I don't reckon we fell short of the USA at all. We were
fighting for 2 years while you stayed home.

The British had stripped the Far Eastern areas of troops to fight the
war in Europe. You know, the one that had been going for 2 years by
then, the one you were watching from the sidelines. Us Australians
went. The Kiwis went. You guys stayed home. You didn't watch your own
backs but ran a half-hearted economic blockade against the Japanese.
They decided to expand their empire, knocked out your Pacific Fleet
with that surprise attack on Pearl Harbour and went for broke. That's
what finally woke you up. Churchill offered what forces he could &
joined the war against the Japanese - and the British got smashed at
Singapore, the Dutch throughout the Indonesian archipelago, the
Americans out of the Philippines, etc etc. The Japanese were fast,
aggressive, and *good*. What brought them unstuck eventually was
logistics and population - too small an industrial base, too few people
to do the work, too much territory with long supply lines. What finally
brought them unstuck was technology - 2 bombs.

This whole discussion came about because of a stupid comment by OZ about
a story of American Pride at the statue of the Flag Rising at Iwo Jima.
Your statement are even dumber.

Yeah? In your opinion. Which, on this topic, is worthless. I've been to
Guadalcanal, seen the war remains, dived on the wrecks. From what I've
seen, read & heard, the US Marines did an unbelievably good job,
unbelievably good, taking those islands back from the Japanese. I have
nothing but respect for that effort. However, you go way too far. Think
about this. Had the British, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders
joined with the Japanese against the USA, do you think you'd have
gotten the Philippines back again? You'd have had the Hawaiian islands
as a base with a long logistic tail and everything else on the west
coast of the USA. Everyone could have kept submarines parked around
Hawaii. You never would have managed it. You guys were relying on our
troops on the ground, our coastal bases and our local logistics to
support the war effort in the Pacific and some acknowledgement of this
instead of your self-righteous posturing is damn well overdue.

If you're upset by my replies then prove
them wrong.

See Oz's references for the number of troops from various countries in
the Pacific.

I've said all I'm going to say. Arguing with a self-righteous ignoramus
just brings to ming the old saying about attempting to teach a pig to
sing.

Peter Wiley

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Donal,

I sorry I didn't answer your question about defeating the Japs without
help

The answer is YES!! We knew it and the Japs also knew it. They were
hoping for a negotiated peace to break the trade imbargo FDR had declare
between the two countries.

They never expected we would fight a two fronted war with enemies 1/2
way around the world. At no time did the sensible leader of Japan think
they would defeat the US

OT

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

OZ,

Your post is making my point, Buddy. We were in the war. America was it
the war being lead by a Yank . The Battle that turned the Tide was
Midway. A naval battle. Jap and Yank ships. Straight up, nose to nose.

Mac inthe Pacific; Ike in Europe. Even Churchill know enough to pick the
right leader. Montgomery never recovered!

You can now wave the flag, a WHITE ONE!!

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Oz.,

The Yanks know when the Japs where in China. They sunk the American Gun
Boat, USS Panay. Not sure of this but I think it was in 1939.

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Again, I'll say it again. List a battle that was of a Offensive Nature
that was a Victory against the Axis Power before that date; (Dec 7,
1941) If your fact are correct and the Tide had changed as you say, You
should have no problem stating where you stated pushing the Japs back to
their Island Empire.

Thom,
You give the impression that you think that America would have won the war
without any help.

Do you believe that the US would have defeated the Japs without any
assistance?

I do! No if and or butts about it.

Joe




Regards


Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Yes Oz,

They won a Kokoda; under American Command in 1942. A hell of a fight it
was too. It was a year after the Yanks were in the war. Taking nothing
away from the Aussie Troops but as I said, give me a battle it equal
before America's entry?
They became WINNERS under McArthur.
Oz I got out there after Guadacanal and You would never believe the
pride all the troops had for the New Guinea Vets.Army
Navy,Air force, to a man they admired. That my friend was the beginning
of the End for Japan. New Guinea, the Canal and the Navy, shutting down
the reinforcement of the Jap Garrissions. It was an Allied Victory. Oz,
it was after Midway. The Yanks were now on the team. We took out Three
of their Carriers at Midway and they never had air superiority again.
This was when we were their equal "IN THE SLOT" the tide had turned and
it probably pivoted on New Guinea. As I said before your boys gave back
everything the Japs had and did it in Spades.

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Dear MC,

No I have not forgotten North Africa but a do believe you have. Do you
remember the American Invasion and Casa Blanca. That my friend was in
North Africa and introduced General Patton to the Desert Fox.

Rommel was driven out of Africa by Patton and Monty. You Baiters keep
coming up with Battles after the Yank were involve.

It was during the North African Fighting that Ike became Commanding
General

Do you remember now?

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Donal" wrote in message ...
Donny's Dilemma wrote in message
...
On 11 Dec 2003 12:43:48 -0800, (Joe) wrote:
Have you ever heard of it?

6 of 2400 Australian prisoners survived

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...2/sandakan.htm



Read it, .... had to respond, ...... but can't think of anything to say!


Regards




Donal,

The ****in japs did this everywere. Over 80% of americans taken
prisoner by them were died while captive.

They were sorry **** balls worse than hitlers worst. I think less
than 5% of american captured by the germans died as captives. Ever
read about the raping of Naking(sp). Ever seen pictures of the sorry
ass MF's smashing babies against tree trunks. Ever see the bridge of
bodies? Sword practice on POW's? Want me to post pictures for you?
Your God damn right we would of beat the japs without anyone's help at
all if needed. How they ever got to the position they are in now is
beyond me. My grandpa was slave labor for mitsubishi(sp)every time I
see one I cant help but wanting to key it. He was an engineer put in
charge of setting up manfacturing equipment and was proud of putting
key parts into the cement foundations, mis aligning equipment and
doing everything he could to screw thing up and get away with without
getting killed. To bad we did not have 10 atomic bombs ready to go at
the time. I can respect the way the Japs fought, but the inhumanity to
un-armed POW's and civalians is beyond my understanding.

Joe


--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Dear Thom,
I was just dealing with your claim that no offensive battle was won
against the axis powers before Dec 7th 1941 and now I've given you a
theatre where some impressuive voctoies were made. To ignore the
importance of Nth Africa in WW2 would be most foolish doncha think?
Now what about all the Naval battles where the British fleets were
nearly always on the offensive???

I'm not taking away anything from the US contribution but trying to deal
with facts.

Cheers MC




Thom Stewart wrote:
Dear MC,

No I have not forgotten North Africa but a do believe you have. Do you
remember the American Invasion and Casa Blanca. That my friend was in
North Africa and introduced General Patton to the Desert Fox.

Rommel was driven out of Africa by Patton and Monty. You Baiters keep
coming up with Battles after the Yank were involve.

It was during the North African Fighting that Ike became Commanding
General

Do you remember now?

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Christ Peter,

Your like Oz alright. Your last post blows your case to hell.

We weren't in charge in Japan. It was the Allies that were in command.
It was an unconditional surrender to the Allied Forces/ under command of
an Army General (McArthur) on a Navy Ship. The trials were by a Allied
Court

Go to your room and do you homework.

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Thanks Oz,

The Panay happened when I was 12 yrs old. I tried to fix the date by
trying to remember what year family car we had. We had a 1937 Hudson and
Also a 1939 Hudson. They both looked alike. I pick the wrong one

Anyway thanks for the Info. From what I remember my Dad sayiny; "It was
a sucker punch to get the River clear of all foreign influence.
It didn't work. but that to is another story.

"REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR"

Guys, I'm getting Tired. I'll get back to you tomorrow

That should give you enough time to research a battle of victory before
12/7/1941. I don't think you master- Baiters) can do it

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Donal,

You have done it again! Your taking YOUR IMPRESSION and implying that it
is mine. Cheap trick!!

WE fought WW2 as a team. You Yank-baiters are the ones that make comment
about a member of that team. Belittling, snide comments.

What have I written that you think is snide or belittling?


I'm asking you to prove you were winning the WAR before we joined the
team.

Why are you asking me this question? I never claimed that *we??* were
winning the war before the US joined in. So why would I even Want to make
such claims?



Since I asked for this proof I've heard about everything but. WERE THE
ALLIES WINNING THE WAR WITHOUT THE YANKS?

NO Thom, they weren't! I never said that they were!!!!!!

Now, Thom, I've given you a straight answer to a straight question.
Now it's my turn.

Did the Yanks win the war without the allies?



Regards

Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...
Dear Thom,
Do Naval battles count?

Not if you can produce any allied victories!

OT's initial question was about "allied victories". When I mentioned the
Battle of Britain, he moved the goalposts and added the word "offensive".


Regards


Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Donut, it seemed to me as if Thom was answering ozzys' posts but addressing
them to you. I believe the stupid ''Donnys Delimma'' handle is the culprit.

What happened to Oz1, anyway?


Scotty



"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Donal,

You have done it again! Your taking YOUR IMPRESSION and implying that it
is mine. Cheap trick!!

WE fought WW2 as a team. You Yank-baiters are the ones that make comment
about a member of that team. Belittling, snide comments.

What have I written that you think is snide or belittling?


I'm asking you to prove you were winning the WAR before we joined the
team.

Why are you asking me this question? I never claimed that *we??* were
winning the war before the US joined in. So why would I even Want to
make
such claims?



Since I asked for this proof I've heard about everything but. WERE THE
ALLIES WINNING THE WAR WITHOUT THE YANKS?

NO Thom, they weren't! I never said that they were!!!!!!

Now, Thom, I've given you a straight answer to a straight question.
Now it's my turn.

Did the Yanks win the war without the allies?



Regards

Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Donal,

I've said the War was an ALLIED VICTORY, always.

You Yank-baiter can't seem to find peace that the ALLIES weren't a
winning team until the Yanks were included.

That is why I've been asking for one of the baiters from this list to
find a Battle before 12/7/1941.

Let's remember this all started with my post of; Remember Pearl Harbor
and then I snide reply to Joe's story at the WW2 Monument of planting of
the American Flag on Mt. S. in Iwo Jima. I took exception to his
demeaning of Americans feeling and showing Pride for their Vets. His
remarks about flag waving and monologue were made Dec11 (Aussie time)
Dec 10 (US Time) My reply (**** off) That we went to war in Europe and
lost at lot of Americans fighting a delaying action while "WE MADE
WINNERS OUT OF LOSERS!"
Dec11 (Aussies time) Oz's reply; Was sick of my flag waving and claiming
we won the war single handed ( this was the first mention of single
handed action and made by a Baiter, not me)
Dec 11 ( I guess UK time) Donal's Reply;
You agreed it was OK to have Pride but claim I overlooked all the
contributions made by all the other Allied people. that Donal was your
assumption of something I had done that was not true (A cheap trick) I
said the American graves were there because the world couldn't take care
of itself. You took exception to this claiming it was pure conjecture
and offensive. Donal, I made that statement to you group of critics
(Critics) was how I printed it. It may have been offensive to you but it
was true. It wasn't conjecture. After the War, Europe were still a
defeated people at the mercy of the Soviet Union. They were helpless.
This were proven when Russia closed off Berlin. The Yanks had to supply
the City by air. Do you remember the "Berlin Airlift"? It was then that
Truman realized the helplessness of the people. The Truman Doctrine was
declared to restore the infrastructure of the countries of Europe, both
Allies and enemies. Out of this Doctrine came the Marshall Plan. Do you
remember these things? Money was made available, by the US Tax Payers,
for the recovery of the countries crushed by WW2. This restored the
European Economy. The infrastructure of Europe. This is the truth. It
was so successful the Russians built a Wall to stop it. Do you remember?
I don't know your age but you should know about this.

I'll get off the Soap Box now. I'm sorry if you find this offensive but
it isn't conjecture.

If the Yankee baiters don't like it SCREW THEM. I know there are people
who remember and are thankful

Remember Pearl Harbor----

AND: "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!"

History lession over:

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

That's one great thing about old men - they have
perspective and an appreciation of history.

Long may you live with clear memory, Ole Thom!

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Donal,

I've said the War was an ALLIED VICTORY, always.

You Yank-baiter can't seem to find peace that the ALLIES weren't a
winning team until the Yanks were included.

That is why I've been asking for one of the baiters from this list to
find a Battle before 12/7/1941.

Let's remember this all started with my post of; Remember Pearl Harbor
and then I snide reply to Joe's story at the WW2 Monument of planting of
the American Flag on Mt. S. in Iwo Jima. I took exception to his
demeaning of Americans feeling and showing Pride for their Vets. His
remarks about flag waving and monologue were made Dec11 (Aussie time)
Dec 10 (US Time) My reply (**** off) That we went to war in Europe and
lost at lot of Americans fighting a delaying action while "WE MADE
WINNERS OUT OF LOSERS!"
Dec11 (Aussies time) Oz's reply; Was sick of my flag waving and claiming
we won the war single handed ( this was the first mention of single
handed action and made by a Baiter, not me)
Dec 11 ( I guess UK time) Donal's Reply;
You agreed it was OK to have Pride but claim I overlooked all the
contributions made by all the other Allied people. that Donal was your
assumption of something I had done that was not true (A cheap trick) I
said the American graves were there because the world couldn't take care
of itself. You took exception to this claiming it was pure conjecture
and offensive. Donal, I made that statement to you group of critics
(Critics) was how I printed it. It may have been offensive to you but it
was true. It wasn't conjecture. After the War, Europe were still a
defeated people at the mercy of the Soviet Union. They were helpless.
This were proven when Russia closed off Berlin. The Yanks had to supply
the City by air. Do you remember the "Berlin Airlift"? It was then that
Truman realized the helplessness of the people. The Truman Doctrine was
declared to restore the infrastructure of the countries of Europe, both
Allies and enemies. Out of this Doctrine came the Marshall Plan. Do you
remember these things? Money was made available, by the US Tax Payers,
for the recovery of the countries crushed by WW2. This restored the
European Economy. The infrastructure of Europe. This is the truth. It
was so successful the Russians built a Wall to stop it. Do you remember?
I don't know your age but you should know about this.

I'll get off the Soap Box now. I'm sorry if you find this offensive but
it isn't conjecture.

If the Yankee baiters don't like it SCREW THEM. I know there are people
who remember and are thankful

Remember Pearl Harbor----

AND: "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!"

History lession over:

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

That's one great thing about old men - they have
perspective and an appreciation of history.


You're very old. Why don't you have any of Thom's wit or perspective?

RB

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Donal,

I've said the War was an ALLIED VICTORY, always.

You Yank-baiter can't seem to find peace that the ALLIES weren't a
winning team until the Yanks were included.

That is why I've been asking for one of the baiters from this list to
find a Battle before 12/7/1941.

Let's remember this all started with my post of; Remember Pearl Harbor
and then I snide reply to Joe's story at the WW2 Monument of planting of
the American Flag on Mt. S. in Iwo Jima. I took exception to his
demeaning of Americans feeling and showing Pride for their Vets. His
remarks about flag waving and monologue were made Dec11 (Aussie time)
Dec 10 (US Time) My reply (**** off) That we went to war in Europe and
lost at lot of Americans fighting a delaying action while "WE MADE
WINNERS OUT OF LOSERS!"

I've already pointed out that I think that you are putting down the efforts
of the rest of the allies.

Now, let me quote what you just wrote:-

"WE MADE WINNERS OUT OF LOSERS!"

Do you really think that the rest of the allies were "LOSERS"?



We all feel an enormous amount of gratitude for the help that the US gave in
WWII. However, we did not expect that we would have to publicly accept
that we were "LOSERS".

It is easy to show gratitude to a friend who offers assistance in a time of
need. If the cost of such assistance, is that one must admit to being a
"LOSER", then most of us would prefer to do without the help. We would also
re-evualuate our understanding of the term "friend".

I never thought that America had insisted that the allies should eat humble
pie. However, as I read your posts, I am beginning to realise that the US
insisted that an American General had supreme authority in *every* theatre
of war.

It's odd. I always laughed at the suggestions that I was anti-American.
After all, I supported American action in Afghanistan. I supported US
policy in the Middle East. I've supported, and profited from, the American
presence in the UK and Germany.

Now, that I know that you were only proving that you were superior to the
"LOSERS" in the rest of the world, I am a bit confused.

Your attitudes are driving away any support that the US once enjoyed in the
international community.




Regards


LOSER aka Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
That's one great thing about old men - they have
perspective and an appreciation of history.


You're very old. Why don't you have any of Thom's wit or perspective?

Sometimes you *are* incisive.




Regards


Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
This is Ole Fart,
It was the Yanks that turned WW2 Allied Forces into an Offences Force.
That is the FACT. Everywhere but in the Soviet. The Russians turn
themselves into an offence unit. That is another story. It's called the
Cold WAR.

Rubbish! The Russians FOUGHT the Germans during WWII. The cold war
started after 1945.

The Russians sacrificed more lives that the USA when Russia and the USA were
allies!



Regards


Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Peter Wiley wrote:


2 separate things. I agree with you WRT the reparations which
undoubtedly broke the Weimar Republic and led pretty directly to the
rise of the Nazi Party. doing the same after WW2 would have been
pointless and counterproductive.

FWIW I think the Marshall Plan is one of the key reasons why we 'won' the Cold War.


I disagree about treating war
criminals as such. The Japanese got off a lot more lightly than the
Germans did.

Yep. Absolutely agreed there. Kinds of puts an interesting spin on the charge of
American racism, doesn't it? I mean, us not nuking the Germans because they were fellow
round-eyes and all.

Personally, I think the Allies in the Pacific should have taken the lot of Japanese war
criminals and turned them over to the Vietnamese, Burmese, Koreans, etc etc.



I'd prefer to not see two sets of blindly patriotic brinksmen shout at each other,
the facts are both more interesting & more useful.

Yep. I was responding in kind and I'm going to kill this thread.

OK, I'll just pull up a seat.

DSK

Remember Navvie© is a welsher
 

The navigator© wrote:


I think you all have forgotten about my lost bet

Nobody has forgotten it, and everybody saw how little you really know about
stability and boat design too.

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Oh Bull**** Donal,

When a Gift is accepted the giver assumes it is needed. After accepting
the Gift that person shouldn't blame the giver because the giver
recognizes the need. To blame the giver for the need is ignorances when
it wasn't the giver fault. If you blame the giver you really are a loser

I feel that way about France, Germany. and Canada and their cry baby
attitude Now that there is $67,000,000,000 They want to forget all the
**** they screamed at the USA. Why pray tell, should we hire people that
don't like us. They deserve to be losers

Screw them, and screw their so called sensitivity, and while I'm at it
screw you and your twisted sensitivity

If yoy can't be correct I guess you have to fall back on sensitivity.
Loser do that a lot.

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

You're very old. Why don't you have any of Thom's wit or perspective?

Sometimes you *are* incisive.


That's what by dentist says.


RB

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Donal,
Can't you even read with with an open mind? I know they were on our side
when the USA joined the ALLIES

Now, Donal, where they Allies when Germany invaded Poland? Where they
Allies when they.invaded Finland? Why don't you tell the group when they
became Allies? Tell us the date so that you can remember.

I know they became an Ally before the USA got in the war. We lost a load
of Merchant Seaman delivering Lend Lease goods to them. They were
fighting the Germans with a lot of American Equipment while they moved
their manufacturing facilities East of the Ural Mountains, out of the
range of German bombers

If you remember I said Stalin wanted the second front at the meeting in
Potsdam (Normandy) was how I printed it

If you were paying any attention to what you were reading, rather than
hunting for an opening for "BAITING" you would have read I listed the
Cold War as another story. I've taken up enough time from the Group
already. It time to give up the floor
I'll save the beginning of the Cold War for another session.

I think you and "The Oz" and Peter and Nav have been blunted enough
about Europe's status during WW2. The "Wall", Eastern Europe and Free
Europe can be told later,
It Is a rather long story

Go crawl into the Pub and have a Stout for me

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Thank you Simple,

I'll live as long as the Lord let's me. No longer, no less.

I do hope my memory continues to serve. I have a Thurday Lunch set up.
Called the Tom, Dick and Harry Lunch. None of our Minds & Memories are
what they were and one of us is in the early stages.
I don't think you younger people can know how frighten that can be.

Two of us are 77 and the oldest is 82

You guys can take a bow, they say my good memory is due to this Group. I
don't disagree and I thank you all

Ole Thom
P/S the spell checker called out "Tom" and gave me ThomG I only use
that on the 'NET.

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

God Bless Her Oz,

You are truly bless that she is able to care for herself at that age.

I had to give up Golf in 1989. My immune system was affected by Myasthia
Gravis. A neurological disorder of the muscles. I'm in remission pretty
well right now but I can't hit that damn ball, Double Vision when I look
down.. Recovered enough to sail singlehanded but have to be careful

Give her a kiss for me and tell it from a friend of your's on the 'net.
Tell her I'm 77 and sail with a female crew, Always room for another
beauty.

I hope she hits them long and down the middle

I'll Drink to you and her tonight

Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote

You Yank-baiter can't seem to find peace that the ALLIES weren't a
winning team until the Yanks were included.

That is why I've been asking for one of the baiters from this list to
find a Battle before 12/7/1941.

The USSR had successfully defended Moscow, with Hitler
ending the German effort to take Moscow on 12-5-41. A
major counterattack (along the entire 500 mile front) takes
place on Dec. 6, throwing the Germans back, away from
Moscow. Moscow is never threatened again.

British forces accepted the surrender of all Italian forces in
east Africa on 11-28-41, securing that end of the Med (and
the Suez Canal) for the rest of the war. (They'd taken Syria
and Lebanon earlier in the year.)

The Bismarck, of course, was sunk earlier, in May. That
was certainly a pretty big victory, at least in terms of morale
and ending the threat to the convoy routes from surface
warships. But I'd say stopping the Germans in the suburbs
of Moscow - to the point Hitler decided to abandon the
effort -- was a pretty major victory. Stopping any threat
to the Suez Canal and allied forces in Egypt from the flanks
was pretty big too in the overall scheme of things.

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Wolfie,
If you want to consider that '41 campaign a Allied Victory so be it? A
major Russian city under siege, German occupation of most of European
Russia, the Romanian Oil industry in German control; I don't call that a
Victory. If that was a Victory then I guess we can call Pearl Harbor a
Victoryg the Japs never got near there again. Wolfie they kick the
**** out of us at Pearl Harbor!!! The Germans did the same to the
Russians in 1941.

I guess you can keep score your way but the Bismarck was sunk alright
but tell that to the died on the "Hood" That was only one fight in the
"Battle of the North Atlantic" and the Wolf Packs were still starving
the British in '41. The German Subs were winning the Battle of the
Atlantic in '41

Your right about the I-ties in North Africa but the Axis ( Rommel)
controlled North Africa not the Allies, the Allies didn't control North
Africa until Patton and Montgomery drove them out.

Wolfie, You made good points. You forgot the first Naval engagement of
the War in South America when the three Brit Cruisers cause the Hun to
scuttle the Battleship

I'm had my say. The Allies, in my mind weren't winners until the Yanks
took command in Europe and Asia/Pacific.

Signing off;
Ole Thom

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote

If you want to consider that '41 campaign a Allied Victory so be it?

You said "a victory" not a "campaign victory." Under that
assumption, you can't call D-Day a "victory" either -- the
Axis was still in control of all but a very small strip of France,
all the Low Countries, etc. Most people would still consider
D-Day a victory, IMO.

A major Russian city under siege, German occupation of most of European
Russia, the Romanian Oil industry in German control; I don't call that a
Victory.

Moscow wasn't under siege by Dec. 7th. The German
High Command had been trying to get Hitler to agree to
give up the attempt for about a month. But I guess you
don't call Gettysburg a victory either, right? They're
identical in scope -- both the "high tide" of the
respective invasions.

I guess you can keep score your way but the Bismarck was sunk alright
but tell that to the died on the "Hood"

I guess you don't consider Midway a victory either then.
Maybe you can tell that to the people who died on the
Yorktown someday.

Your right about the I-ties in North Africa but the Axis ( Rommel)
controlled North Africa not the Allies, the Allies didn't control North
Africa until Patton and Montgomery drove them out.

So there's at least one victory you acknowledge. Montgomery
and El Alamein was more responsible than Patton in North
Africa later, of course.

I'm had my say. The Allies, in my mind weren't winners until the Yanks
took command in Europe and Asia/Pacific.

In the Pacific War, that's probably true. The worst thing the
Japanese could do was attack the US -- they lost the moment
the first torpedo was dropped at Pearl. In Europe, it's because
you're centered on Western Europe and ignore what the USSR
did to Germany before the first "Yank" stepped out of a landing
craft on Italy -- or even met the Afrika Korps at Kasserine Pass.

Like Gettysburg finished any real hopes for the Confederacy,
Stalingrad and the USSR had finished the Third Reich. It took
quite a while for both wars to end after the turning point but that
turning point in Europe and eventual victory had more to do with
the Merchant Marine and Murmansk convoys than Ike or
Patton.

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Donut, it seemed to me as if Thom was answering ozzys' posts but
addressing
them to you. I believe the stupid ''Donnys Delimma'' handle is the
culprit.

What happened to Oz1, anyway?

I accidentally trolled him.


Did you know that he is fabulously wealthy?



Regards


Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Yes, but apparently not wealthy enough to buy a clue.

Scotty


"Donal" wrote

What happened to Oz1, anyway?

I accidentally trolled him.


Did you know that he is fabulously wealthy?



Regards


Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

I noticed how Thom's been schooling you.

SV

Ozzys Enema wrote
Yes, but apparently not wealthy enough to buy a clue.

Scotty
Don't need to buy one Scootz,
I'm getting all I need here...free ;-)

Hey Doug, read this and think!
 

Your trouble is you don't know even what you don't know.

How long did you say that boat was again -didn't you say 8m? Bzzzt
How about your claim of a 180 LPS for a Bolger Micro? Bzzzt
Capsize screen not related to initial stability? Bzzzt

Initial stability is equal to the moment of inertia of the water plane
divided by the volume of displacement. The former is approximated by the
a beam the latter the displacement. Thus the stabilitry screen can at
best provide an estimate of initial stability -as I said.

You're a loser whatever way I look at it. The big issue is why do you
like posting misleading information?

Cheers MC


DSK wrote:

The navigator© wrote:


I think you all have forgotten about my lost bet


Nobody has forgotten it, and everybody saw how little you really know about
stability and boat design too.

Hey Mark, read this and shut up!
 

The navigator© wrote:


How long did you say that boat was again -didn't you say 8m?

I didn't say, you did.


Bzzzt

Doing an imitation of a fly again? Given your diet, I'm not surprised.


.... Thus the stabilitry screen can at
best provide an estimate of initial stability -as I said.

First of all, do you even know what you are talking about? I was talking about
the Capsize Screening Ratio, devised by a number of naval architects to give a
rough comparison of inverted stability or LPOS with only the boats basic
dimensions.

I suppose the people who inveneted have no idea what they did it for, or how it
works.



You're a loser whatever way I look at it.

That's because you're looking in a mirror.



The big issue is why do you
like posting misleading information?

Because you don't know WTF I'm talking about, so to you it's misleading.

BTW they just discovered the Earth isn't flat. You don't have to be scared of
sailing off the edge any more.

DSK

Hey Doug, read this and LEARN
 

DSK wrote:

The navigator© wrote:


How long did you say that boat was again -didn't you say 8m?


I didn't say, you did.

No, I just gave the name of the boat, it was you who lied about the
length. Why not look her up in Google -you'll be astonished and embarrassed!

First of all, do you even know what you are talking about? I was talking about
the Capsize Screening Ratio, devised by a number of naval architects to give a
rough comparison of inverted stability or LPOS with only the boats basic
dimensions.

You mean the formula I just posted? Having given you it's theoretical
basis you must now surely accept that it is no more than a rough
nmeasure of the true initial stability. No matter what you say or think
the maths is simple and shows that I was correct.

Second, the LPS and inverted stability are two completely different
things. Such profound misconceptions on your part!

Doug, inverted stability is _not_ predicted by just the beam and
diplacement. If you accept that, then what does the capsize screen
really indicate?
(Hint: How about a rough indicator of stiffness?)

Have you heard of the metacentric radius and do you know how it might
related to beam and displacement?

Cheers MC

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

Donny's Dilemma wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:51:44 -0000, "Donal"
wrote:


Did you know that he is fabulously wealthy?

Nah Donny, just comfortabl that's all, lucky me.


"Comfortable" is a relative term.

I suppose that Bill Gates, or the Sultan of Brunei, might have more than 3
yachts(althought I've never heard either of them boast about it).

The rest of us would consider anything more than one yacht to be a bit
excessive.

So, I stand by my claim that you are fabulously rich!


Regards


Donal
--

Remember Pearl Harbor!;
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Oh Bull**** Donal,

When a Gift is accepted the giver assumes it is needed. After accepting
the Gift that person shouldn't blame the giver because the giver
recognizes the need. To blame the giver for the need is ignorances when
it wasn't the giver fault. If you blame the giver you really are a loser

Are you saying that you want the British to have to eat humble pie because
you came to their assistance in WWII?

The rest of the world assumes that the term "allies" implies a partnership
of friends. If this is not the case then you should tell us.

If you didn't need any help in Iraq, then why am I paying tax to fund this
folly, this personal Bush crusade?




I feel that way about France, Germany. and Canada and their cry baby
attitude Now that there is $67,000,000,000 They want to forget all the
**** they screamed at the USA. Why pray tell, should we hire people that
don't like us. They deserve to be losers

Why, pray tell, are you asking these losers to help you in Iraq?




Screw them, and screw their so called sensitivity, and while I'm at it
screw you and your twisted sensitivity

You won't be dissappointed to learn that I think that Bush *has* screwed us.
We are having to spend huge amounts on security since our government signed
up to Bush's War on Terror. When we signed up, I supported Blair. I had
faith in Bush, and I do believe that terror needs to be dealt with.

However, the war in Iraq has only served to increase the threat of terror.



If yoy can't be correct I guess you have to fall back on sensitivity.
Loser do that a lot.


... Or on silly suppositions.


Regards


Donal
--

Hey Navvie©, read this if you can
 

The navigator© wrote:


...No matter what you say or think
the maths is simple and shows that I was correct.

You're nuttier than Bubbles. At least he knows he's full of crap. You seem to think
that others should take you seriously.


Doug, inverted stability is _not_ predicted by just the beam and
diplacement.

I never said it was. First, you need to learn to read. Did you bother to read any of
the links I gave you explaining stability and the Capsize Screen?

Now, pay me the bet you lost and go away.

DSK