Undefined to stimulate discussion. How about a Huchins Compac 16?
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:48:42 GMT, "The Carrolls"
wrote:

Any thoughts on the subject? Trailerable would be a plus but not
necessarily
needed. Must be able to weekend and stand at least moderate weather.
Length
up to discussion.


Given your rather un-defined parameters, I'd say probably a Seaward Fox
with the
sloop rig. It's trailerable, yet carries a 450 pound lead keel. It has a
lot of
room for an under 20 foot sailboat, and it can handle pretty dramatic
conditions
without making them more dramatic. It's not the fastest boat, but it sails
quite
well in a wide range of conditions, and for entry level, it provides a
very
stable, easy to manage experience. They are well made, forgiving little
boats.

BB

The Carrolls wrote:

Undefined to stimulate discussion. How about a Huchins Compac 16?

I like the their Sun Cat better.

The biggest problems with the ComPac 16 is that it's harder to ramp launch than
it should be, the cabin is absolutely tiny inside, and they are so slow they hit
the same wave three times.

But they are very salty looking little boats, inexpesnive to own, and I know
some people who have done a good bit of serious cruising in them. They don't
have the reserve bouyancy to carry enough stores for passagemaking, but for
coastal cruising they are very capable. Plus they are lots of fun for daysailing
(as long as the other boats dont' cruelly sail circles around you laughing).

I like Tadpole's pick, the Bolger Micro. Unorthodox but very practical &
seaworthy.
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/

How small does a Pocket Cruiser have to be? If I weren't so humble I'd submit
that our Hunter 19 is one of the best.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...83124161YlrYLT

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

C'mon Doug!

A bolger micro is not a "sea worthy" craft. It is fine for pottering
about on fine days or on ishore waters. In my opinion it would be lethal
in a gale in unprotected water having a very low angle of vanishing
stability. If you want a salty boat look for something along the lines
of a Cornish crabber or Tamarisk (if you can find/build the latter you
will have a gem).

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:

The Carrolls wrote:


Undefined to stimulate discussion. How about a Huchins Compac 16?


I like the their Sun Cat better.

The biggest problems with the ComPac 16 is that it's harder to ramp launch than
it should be, the cabin is absolutely tiny inside, and they are so slow they hit
the same wave three times.

But they are very salty looking little boats, inexpesnive to own, and I know
some people who have done a good bit of serious cruising in them. They don't
have the reserve bouyancy to carry enough stores for passagemaking, but for
coastal cruising they are very capable. Plus they are lots of fun for daysailing
(as long as the other boats dont' cruelly sail circles around you laughing).

I like Tadpole's pick, the Bolger Micro. Unorthodox but very practical &
seaworthy.
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/

How small does a Pocket Cruiser have to be? If I weren't so humble I'd submit
that our Hunter 19 is one of the best.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...83124161YlrYLT

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The navigator© wrote:

C'mon Doug!

A bolger micro is not a "sea worthy" craft. It is fine for pottering
about on fine days or on ishore waters. In my opinion it would be lethal
in a gale in unprotected water

Well, your opinion (in this case) goes against established fact, since they handle
rough weather as nicely as anything twice their displacement. Some of them have made
short passages.


.... having a very low angle of vanishing
stability.

I bet anything you care to name that they have a higher LPOS that anything else in
their size range.


If you want a salty boat look for something along the lines
of a Cornish crabber or Tamarisk (if you can find/build the latter you
will have a gem).

Don't know what a Tamarisk is, but the Micro has a higher LPOS than the Cornish
Crabber and will make ground to weather in conditions that will have the Crabber
scudding off to leeward. The Micro is not "salty looking" in fact it's quite
unconventional. But it is very practical and sails a lot better than one might think,
certainly better than a big yacht scaled down to the same size.

I rather like the Cornish Crabber and if we'd seen them before getting the Hunter 19
we might have had one of those instead, but I doubt we'd have been as happy with it.
They are indeed salty looking and they are fairly practical to trailer, but woefully
slow and not at all as roomy or comfy as our little boat.

Come to think of it, we've sailed the Hunter 19 thru weather that had 35 foot crab
crushers huddling at the dock. I guess there's more to it than meets the eye (although
I'm not making any claims about it's LPOS).

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

The navigator© wrote:


C'mon Doug!

A bolger micro is not a "sea worthy" craft. It is fine for pottering
about on fine days or on ishore waters. In my opinion it would be lethal
in a gale in unprotected water


Well, your opinion (in this case) goes against established fact, since they handle
rough weather as nicely as anything twice their displacement. Some of them have made
short passages.


Even Phil Bolger wrote this in his fiction story about his boat:

" If they had passed the strait they would almost certainly have lost
the boat. The Libeccio, a southwest dry gale, blew up out of a clear sky
as they neared Cap Corse, and even under the lee of Corsica they got the
scare of their lives and just made it into Bastia with deep-reefed
mainsail and motor wide open. They came close to being blown over to the
Italian coast. If they'd been on the west coast of Corsica, they would
have piled up on the lee shore.that a gale would risk "

You still want to maintain this is seaworthy!

What depresses me is that you should be able to look at the design and
_know_ it is NOT seaworthy.

Cheers MC





.... having a very low angle of vanishing
stability.


I bet anything you care to name that they have a higher LPOS that anything else in
their size range.



If you want a salty boat look for something along the lines
of a Cornish crabber or Tamarisk (if you can find/build the latter you
will have a gem).

Don't know what a Tamarisk is, but the Micro has a higher LPOS than the Cornish
Crabber and will make ground to weather in conditions that will have the Crabber
scudding off to leeward.

And what is the LPOS of the MICRO Doug?

?The Micro is not "salty looking" in fact it's quite
unconventional.


But it is very practical and sails a lot better than one might think,
certainly better than a big yacht scaled down to the same size.

I don't think it will sail any better that I think that's for sure.

I rather like the Cornish Crabber and if we'd seen them before getting the Hunter 19
we might have had one of those instead, but I doubt we'd have been as happy with it.
They are indeed salty looking and they are fairly practical to trailer, but woefully
slow and not at all as roomy or comfy as our little boat.


Thisd is true but the Crabber is a good seaboat.


Come to think of it, we've sailed the Hunter 19 thru weather that had 35 foot crab
crushers huddling at the dock.

There are even bigger boats that huddle at docks. When the crabber hull
was designed it was based squarely on working boats that went out in
gales. I have sailed a very similar design through a severe gale in the
english channel.

The navigator© wrote:

Even Phil Bolger wrote this in his fiction story about his boat:

" If they had passed the strait they would almost certainly have lost
the boat. The Libeccio, a southwest dry gale, blew up out of a clear sky
as they neared Cap Corse

1- this is fiction

2- he is talking about 50 knot gale and confused seas, not a hopeful place for a 15' boat
with rocky cliffs under the lee.


What depresses me is that you should be able to look at the design and
_know_ it is NOT seaworthy.

One cannot judge a book by its cover. It's sad to see that *you* think *you* can.

DSK

DSK wrote:

OK I'll take that bet. How does $10,000 sound?

Cheers MC


I bet anything you care to name that they have a higher LPOS that anything else in
their size range.

DSK wrote:
I bet anything you care to name that they have a higher LPOS that anything else in
their size range.



The navigator© wrote:
OK I'll take that bet. How does $10,000 sound?



Beat 180 degrees LPOS. The Bolger Micro has sealed wooden box masts and a 50%
ballast/disp ratio.

Awaiting your check, do you have any stock market advice to go with it? I understand
that it's possible to make over 40% returns these days....

DSK

DSK wrote:

If you want a salty boat look for something along the lines
of a Cornish crabber or Tamarisk (if you can find/build the latter you
will have a gem).


Don't know what a Tamarisk is

Here's a Tamarsik:

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/F22517/

but the Micro has a higher LPOS than the Cornish
Crabber and will make ground to weather in conditions that will have the Crabber
scudding off to leeward.

That's a really ignorant thing to say. You've obviously never sailed a
crabber or one like her. I have and they do work to wind in a gale quite
well. No bolger box design will go to wind in a gale as well as a
crabber -the hull shape won't permit it.

Cheers MC

The navigator© wrote:


Here's a Tamarsik:

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/F22517/


Nice looking boat. Of course it's probably 3X the displacement of the Micro, so what a
fair comparison.


but the Micro has a higher LPOS than the Cornish
Crabber and will make ground to weather in conditions that will have the Crabber
scudding off to leeward.

That's a really ignorant thing to say. You've obviously never sailed a
crabber or one like her.

Actually, I have not only sailed both a Crabber and a Shrimper, I've sailed the
Shrimper with the designer. A very pleasant afternoon.

I have and they do work to wind in a gale quite
well.

Perhaps the designer knows more than you, he says they start having a "bit of bother"
when the wind gets over 40.


No bolger box design will go to wind in a gale as well as a
crabber -the hull shape won't permit it.

The hull shape is actually less important than the rig & foils, and the overall
aerodynamic drag. Double head gaff sloops look very salty indeed but have a lot of
drag which is hard for their inefficient rigs to overcome when the wind blows hard.

The navigator© wrote:

Bzzt. You loose! It's 25% ballast ratio for a start

Where did you get this figure?

and mast buoyancy
does not (and cannot) contribute to LPOS measurements ('cos it can and
will be dismasted!!!).

On your say so? I think not, the masts are quite strong and secured to the boat at
least as well as a conventional stayed rig.

If you want another figure of merit, check the Capsize Screen for both boats. You'll
find that the Micro is lower.

I assume this is just a feeble attempt to welsh on your bet.

DSK