"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


Donal wrote:
"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...

And that is where you are so wrong. The fact is that we can predict
exactly where the atom will be for a short period with perfect accurace
-that's thanks to QED. The problem is that the solution to greater times
becomes too complex. This does not mean that information content right
now is infinite.


Of course it does!

Can you not break the next second into an infinite number of smaller
time
frames?

That has nothing to do with the energy content of the system.

The discussion started with the contention that man's ignorance was
infinite. You introduced the "energy content" as a method of proving that
information was, in some way, finite. However, the sum total of energy
contained in the Universe is not related to the sum total of information
about the Universe. I have already demonstrated that information can be
related to time. As any unit of time can be divided into an infinite number
of sub-units, then the information regarding anything at all, can be
divided into an infinite number of discrete pieces of information.

The sum total of energy that exists in our Universe may well be finite.
However, the sum total of knowledge about the behaviour of any single
electron, in any single atom, is infinite!

In other words, we know nothing!



Regards


Donal
--




Therefore, there are an infinite number of possibilities for the
information
pertaining to the position of any single electron

Yes but only one comes into exixtance with observation. At that point
the wave function is determined and there your are!


You are mixing the plurarity of the future with
existance.


Well, if the next second is too difficult, how about the application of
my
ideas to the last second?

Seconds are a long time on the atomis scale.



The fact is that the energy content right _now_ is finite.


Only if you subscribe to the "Big Bang" Theory.

I don't.


That is not a requirement of BB theories.

It has several problems. The first is that the Universe was created out
of
nothing at all - and that equal quantities of matter and anti-matter
were
created.

Tell me, were equal quantities of Energy and anti-Energy created?

Is there really no empty space beyond the bounds of our little Universe?


Yes nothing. nada. Zip.

Cheers MC


It
cannot be otherwise! The refute this implies that our existance (wave
state) right is not a certainty (deterministic). Now you are not going
to say you don't exist are you?


I only exist in my own mind..... as do you.

Of course, *I* might only exist in your mind.




Regards



Donal
--

Donal wrote:

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


Donal wrote:

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


And that is where you are so wrong. The fact is that we can predict
exactly where the atom will be for a short period with perfect accurace
-that's thanks to QED. The problem is that the solution to greater times
becomes too complex. This does not mean that information content right
now is infinite.


Of course it does!

Can you not break the next second into an infinite number of smaller

time

frames?

That has nothing to do with the energy content of the system.


The discussion started with the contention that man's ignorance was
infinite. You introduced the "energy content" as a method of proving that
information was, in some way, finite. However, the sum total of energy
contained in the Universe is not related to the sum total of information
about the Universe. I have already demonstrated that information can be
related to time. As any unit of time can be divided into an infinite number
of sub-units, then the information regarding anything at all, can be
divided into an infinite number of discrete pieces of information.

Information and energy have a very close connection. The minimum amount
of energy required to store a bit of information has been known for
quite some time. Since the energy content of the universe is finite it
follows that the information content is also finite for without energy
there is no information storage -i.e. that information does not exist.
Of course the amount of information is very very large but it's not
infinite -unless a big number means infinity to you...

The sum total of energy that exists in our Universe may well be finite.
However, the sum total of knowledge about the behaviour of any single
electron, in any single atom, is infinite!

No it isn't. Is it that you are confused about wave-particle duality -or
perhaps you are asking meaningless questions which cannot be answered
because there is no information in their answers?

Cheers MC

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


Donal wrote:

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


Donal wrote:

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


And that is where you are so wrong. The fact is that we can predict
exactly where the atom will be for a short period with perfect
accurace
-that's thanks to QED. The problem is that the solution to greater
times
becomes too complex. This does not mean that information content right
now is infinite.


Of course it does!

Can you not break the next second into an infinite number of smaller

time

frames?

That has nothing to do with the energy content of the system.


The discussion started with the contention that man's ignorance was
infinite. You introduced the "energy content" as a method of proving
that
information was, in some way, finite. However, the sum total of energy
contained in the Universe is not related to the sum total of information
about the Universe. I have already demonstrated that information can
be
related to time. As any unit of time can be divided into an infinite
number
of sub-units, then the information regarding anything at all, can be
divided into an infinite number of discrete pieces of information.

Information and energy have a very close connection. The minimum amount
of energy required to store a bit of information has been known for
quite some time. Since the energy content of the universe is finite it
follows that the information content is also finite for without energy
there is no information storage -i.e. that information does not exist.
Of course the amount of information is very very large but it's not
infinite -unless a big number means infinity to you...

The sum total of energy that exists in our Universe may well be finite.
However, the sum total of knowledge about the behaviour of any single
electron, in any single atom, is infinite!

No it isn't. Is it that you are confused about wave-particle duality -or
perhaps you are asking meaningless questions which cannot be answered
because there is no information in their answers?

Does an electron exist? Is it a physical entity?

If so, then it must occupy a position in space!


Therefore, it will occupy an infinite number of positions in the next
second - because the next second contains an infinite number of points in
time.


Regards


Donal
--

Donal wrote:



Does an electron exist? Is it a physical entity?

Yes


If so, then it must occupy a position in space!

Not unless you look for it, until then it is everywhere, if
you subscribe to quantum mechanical theory.


Therefore, it will occupy an infinite number of positions in the next
second - because the next second contains an infinite number of points in
time.

Like I said, it always was and is everywhere, it's one way of explaining
quantum tunneling.

Cheers
Marty

Donal wrote:

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


Donal wrote:


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


Donal wrote:


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...



And that is where you are so wrong. The fact is that we can predict
exactly where the atom will be for a short period with perfect

accurace

-that's thanks to QED. The problem is that the solution to greater

times

becomes too complex. This does not mean that information content right
now is infinite.


Of course it does!

Can you not break the next second into an infinite number of smaller

time


frames?

That has nothing to do with the energy content of the system.


The discussion started with the contention that man's ignorance was
infinite. You introduced the "energy content" as a method of proving

that

information was, in some way, finite. However, the sum total of energy
contained in the Universe is not related to the sum total of information
about the Universe. I have already demonstrated that information can

be

related to time. As any unit of time can be divided into an infinite

number

of sub-units, then the information regarding anything at all, can be
divided into an infinite number of discrete pieces of information.


Information and energy have a very close connection. The minimum amount
of energy required to store a bit of information has been known for
quite some time. Since the energy content of the universe is finite it
follows that the information content is also finite for without energy
there is no information storage -i.e. that information does not exist.
Of course the amount of information is very very large but it's not
infinite -unless a big number means infinity to you...


The sum total of energy that exists in our Universe may well be finite.
However, the sum total of knowledge about the behaviour of any single
electron, in any single atom, is infinite!

No it isn't. Is it that you are confused about wave-particle duality -or
perhaps you are asking meaningless questions which cannot be answered
because there is no information in their answers?


Does an electron exist?

Only when it's interacting with something.

Is it a physical entity?

Yes it has rest mass

If so, then it must occupy a position in space!

Yes, when measured.

Therefore, it will occupy an infinite number of positions in the next
second - because the next second contains an infinite number of points in
time.

After measurement you will have to remeasure it's position and at at
that moment it does not occupy an infinite numer of positions. Do you
see it now -that the wave function collapses on measurement means that
the information conetent is finite.

Cheers MC

Regards


Donal
--

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...

After measurement you will have to remeasure it's position and at at
that moment it does not occupy an infinite numer of positions. Do you
see it now -that the wave function collapses on measurement means that
the information conetent is finite.

I can see that you would understand that the information content would be
finite for any given measurement.

I was wondering about the number of potential measurements that could be
taken in a second.

I suspect that any given second can be broken down into an infinite number
of "sub-seconds", and therefore, there are an infinite number of different
predictions about the electron's position in any given second.

Take the number of seconds that have existed over the last 15 billion years,
and combine that figure with the number of electrons in the *known*
Universe, and then you try to quantify the information about the spatial
position of each electron -...


Do you still maintain that you have any serious amount of knowledge?

Regards


Donal
--

Donal wrote:

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...

After measurement you will have to remeasure it's position and at at
that moment it does not occupy an infinite numer of positions. Do you
see it now -that the wave function collapses on measurement means that
the information conetent is finite.


I can see that you would understand that the information content would be
finite for any given measurement.

I was wondering about the number of potential measurements that could be
taken in a second.

Good idea but that's finite too because making a measuremnt requires
energy and the energy content of the universe is finite...

I suspect that any given second can be broken down into an infinite number
of "sub-seconds", and therefore, there are an infinite number of different
predictions about the electron's position in any given second.

Take the number of seconds that have existed over the last 15 billion years,
and combine that figure with the number of electrons in the *known*
Universe, and then you try to quantify the information about the spatial
position of each electron -...


Do you still maintain that you have any serious amount of knowledge?

Define "any serious" in Mbytes and I'll tell you.

Cheers MC

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...


Donal wrote:

"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...

After measurement you will have to remeasure it's position and at at
that moment it does not occupy an infinite numer of positions. Do you
see it now -that the wave function collapses on measurement means that
the information conetent is finite.


I can see that you would understand that the information content would
be
finite for any given measurement.

I was wondering about the number of potential measurements that could be
taken in a second.

Good idea but that's finite too because making a measuremnt requires
energy and the energy content of the universe is finite...

Good grief! Are you suggesting that facts cannot exist unless they have
been observed?

When a new fact is discovered, does it only come into existence *after* it
was obseverd?

Did humans need oxygen to survive before we knew that gasses existed at all?
Was the Sun at the centre of our Solar System when man still thought that
the Earth was the centre of the Universe?

Why do you try to equate facts with our ability to take measurements. Facts
exist independantly of observation.


I suspect that any given second can be broken down into an infinite
number
of "sub-seconds", and therefore, there are an infinite number of
different
predictions about the electron's position in any given second.

Take the number of seconds that have existed over the last 15 billion
years,
and combine that figure with the number of electrons in the *known*
Universe, and then you try to quantify the information about the spatial
position of each electron -...


Do you still maintain that you have any serious amount of knowledge?

Define "any serious" in Mbytes and I'll tell you.

Humans think that they are intelligent.

We are not very bright at all. We've had about 700 generations since we
lived in caves, and it looks like we will make the planet uninhabitable
within 100 years, or we will blow ourselves to bits.

I offer you a (rough) quote from Douglas Adams. "Man thought that he was
more intelligent than the dolphins, because all they did was swim around and
play. The Dolphins thought that they were more intelligent for exactly the
same reason."



Regards


Donal
--




Cheers MC