OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas or other strong textile
material fastened to the masts, spars or stays of a vessel, so as to
catch the wind and cause it to move through the water. Also occas. a
similar apparatus for propelling a wind-driven carriage.

b. transf. Applied to the wing of a bird. poet. Also techn. in
Falconry, the wing of a hawk.


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail, or
that catches the wind.


d. Aeronaut. Applied to a flat aerodynamically structured part of
an aircraft. Obs.

Note "c".

Cheers MC

What's your point?


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas or other strong textile
material fastened to the masts, spars or stays of a vessel, so as to
catch the wind and cause it to move through the water. Also occas. a
similar apparatus for propelling a wind-driven carriage.

b. transf. Applied to the wing of a bird. poet. Also techn. in
Falconry, the wing of a hawk.


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail, or
that catches the wind.


d. Aeronaut. Applied to a flat aerodynamically structured part of
an aircraft. Obs.

Note "c".

Cheers MC

My point is that if it works as a sail it is a sail.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

What's your point?


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas or other strong textile
material fastened to the masts, spars or stays of a vessel, so as to
catch the wind and cause it to move through the water. Also occas. a
similar apparatus for propelling a wind-driven carriage.

b. transf. Applied to the wing of a bird. poet. Also techn. in
Falconry, the wing of a hawk.


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail, or
that catches the wind.


d. Aeronaut. Applied to a flat aerodynamically structured part of
an aircraft. Obs.

Note "c".

Cheers MC

So is a seagull's wing but as long as it is not
attached to a vessel the vessel is not a sailboat.

S.Simon

"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
My point is that if it works as a sail it is a sail.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

What's your point?


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas or other strong textile
material fastened to the masts, spars or stays of a vessel, so as to
catch the wind and cause it to move through the water. Also occas. a
similar apparatus for propelling a wind-driven carriage.

b. transf. Applied to the wing of a bird. poet. Also techn. in
Falconry, the wing of a hawk.


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail, or
that catches the wind.


d. Aeronaut. Applied to a flat aerodynamically structured part of
an aircraft. Obs.

Note "c".

Cheers MC

The_navigator© wrote:
OED:

c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail,
or that catches the wind.

Note "c".

The dictionary, so far as I understand it, describes usages of words as part
of language, but not neccessarly a legal definition for the purpose of the
colregs (if the kitesail thingy is where this coming from / going).

Not saying it doesn't apply, though. On a canoe, the method of propulsion
isn't part of the vessel, but is a separate implement held and manipulated
by the person. Although not a direct correlate to the idea of whether a
sailboat can only be such if the sail is attached to it, it does suggest a
precedent for non-attachment of the means of propulsion. What about those
river ferry raft-things that are moved by the person on board pulling on a
rope stretched across the river? Aren't hey vessels?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There is
nothing else possible.

Cheers MC

Wally wrote:
The_navigator© wrote:

OED:


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail,
or that catches the wind.


Note "c".


The dictionary, so far as I understand it, describes usages of words as part
of language, but not neccessarly a legal definition for the purpose of the
colregs (if the kitesail thingy is where this coming from / going).

Not saying it doesn't apply, though. On a canoe, the method of propulsion
isn't part of the vessel, but is a separate implement held and manipulated
by the person. Although not a direct correlate to the idea of whether a
sailboat can only be such if the sail is attached to it, it does suggest a
precedent for non-attachment of the means of propulsion. What about those
river ferry raft-things that are moved by the person on board pulling on a
rope stretched across the river? Aren't hey vessels?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

The_navigator© wrote:

Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Is the ski a water skier stands on when being
pulled by a motorboat a vessel?

No it is not.

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

S.Simon



"Wally" wrote in message ...
The_navigator© wrote:

Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Rule #a:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft,
including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being
used as a means of transportation on water.

Note "every" and "capable". FYI: A kite surfers board is a
non-displacement craft.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Is the ski a water skier stands on when being
pulled by a motorboat a vessel?

No it is not.

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

S.Simon



"Wally" wrote in message ...

The_navigator© wrote:


Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Simple Simon wrote:

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

I'm not disputing that it's a grey area. Until it's resolved, however, how
should it be handled? I would take the precedent that there are vessels
who's means of propulsion isn't attached to them (like canoes) and treat the
kite sailor both as a vessel (rather than a hazard like a floating log, say)
and as a saiboat. In practcal terms, his mode of propulsion is subject to
the same vagaries a sailboat.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.