What is a sail?
 

OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas or other strong textile
material fastened to the masts, spars or stays of a vessel, so as to
catch the wind and cause it to move through the water. Also occas. a
similar apparatus for propelling a wind-driven carriage.

b. transf. Applied to the wing of a bird. poet. Also techn. in
Falconry, the wing of a hawk.


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail, or
that catches the wind.


d. Aeronaut. Applied to a flat aerodynamically structured part of
an aircraft. Obs.

Note "c".

Cheers MC

What is a sail?
 

What's your point?


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas or other strong textile
material fastened to the masts, spars or stays of a vessel, so as to
catch the wind and cause it to move through the water. Also occas. a
similar apparatus for propelling a wind-driven carriage.

b. transf. Applied to the wing of a bird. poet. Also techn. in
Falconry, the wing of a hawk.


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail, or
that catches the wind.


d. Aeronaut. Applied to a flat aerodynamically structured part of
an aircraft. Obs.

Note "c".

Cheers MC

What is a sail?
 

My point is that if it works as a sail it is a sail.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

What's your point?


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas or other strong textile
material fastened to the masts, spars or stays of a vessel, so as to
catch the wind and cause it to move through the water. Also occas. a
similar apparatus for propelling a wind-driven carriage.

b. transf. Applied to the wing of a bird. poet. Also techn. in
Falconry, the wing of a hawk.


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail, or
that catches the wind.


d. Aeronaut. Applied to a flat aerodynamically structured part of
an aircraft. Obs.

Note "c".

Cheers MC

What is a sail?
 

The_navigator© wrote:
OED:

c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail,
or that catches the wind.

Note "c".

The dictionary, so far as I understand it, describes usages of words as part
of language, but not neccessarly a legal definition for the purpose of the
colregs (if the kitesail thingy is where this coming from / going).

Not saying it doesn't apply, though. On a canoe, the method of propulsion
isn't part of the vessel, but is a separate implement held and manipulated
by the person. Although not a direct correlate to the idea of whether a
sailboat can only be such if the sail is attached to it, it does suggest a
precedent for non-attachment of the means of propulsion. What about those
river ferry raft-things that are moved by the person on board pulling on a
rope stretched across the river? Aren't hey vessels?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There is
nothing else possible.

Cheers MC

Wally wrote:
The_navigator© wrote:

OED:


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail,
or that catches the wind.


Note "c".


The dictionary, so far as I understand it, describes usages of words as part
of language, but not neccessarly a legal definition for the purpose of the
colregs (if the kitesail thingy is where this coming from / going).

Not saying it doesn't apply, though. On a canoe, the method of propulsion
isn't part of the vessel, but is a separate implement held and manipulated
by the person. Although not a direct correlate to the idea of whether a
sailboat can only be such if the sail is attached to it, it does suggest a
precedent for non-attachment of the means of propulsion. What about those
river ferry raft-things that are moved by the person on board pulling on a
rope stretched across the river? Aren't hey vessels?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

The_navigator© wrote:

Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

So is a seagull's wing but as long as it is not
attached to a vessel the vessel is not a sailboat.

S.Simon

"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
My point is that if it works as a sail it is a sail.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

What's your point?


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas or other strong textile
material fastened to the masts, spars or stays of a vessel, so as to
catch the wind and cause it to move through the water. Also occas. a
similar apparatus for propelling a wind-driven carriage.

b. transf. Applied to the wing of a bird. poet. Also techn. in
Falconry, the wing of a hawk.


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail, or
that catches the wind.


d. Aeronaut. Applied to a flat aerodynamically structured part of
an aircraft. Obs.

Note "c".

Cheers MC

What is a sail?
 

A water skier is pulled along by a boat with machinery
but a water ski is not a vessel.

Likewise a kite sailor is pulled along by a sail but the
kite sailor's board is not a vessel.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There is
nothing else possible.

Cheers MC

Wally wrote:
The_navigator© wrote:

OED:


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail,
or that catches the wind.


Note "c".


The dictionary, so far as I understand it, describes usages of words as part
of language, but not neccessarly a legal definition for the purpose of the
colregs (if the kitesail thingy is where this coming from / going).

Not saying it doesn't apply, though. On a canoe, the method of propulsion
isn't part of the vessel, but is a separate implement held and manipulated
by the person. Although not a direct correlate to the idea of whether a
sailboat can only be such if the sail is attached to it, it does suggest a
precedent for non-attachment of the means of propulsion. What about those
river ferry raft-things that are moved by the person on board pulling on a
rope stretched across the river? Aren't hey vessels?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

Is the ski a water skier stands on when being
pulled by a motorboat a vessel?

No it is not.

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

S.Simon



"Wally" wrote in message ...
The_navigator© wrote:

Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

A water skier's board in the water is a vessel under tow.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

A water skier is pulled along by a boat with machinery
but a water ski is not a vessel.

Likewise a kite sailor is pulled along by a sail but the
kite sailor's board is not a vessel.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There is
nothing else possible.

Cheers MC

Wally wrote:

The_navigator© wrote:


OED:


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail,
or that catches the wind.


Note "c".


The dictionary, so far as I understand it, describes usages of words as part
of language, but not neccessarly a legal definition for the purpose of the
colregs (if the kitesail thingy is where this coming from / going).

Not saying it doesn't apply, though. On a canoe, the method of propulsion
isn't part of the vessel, but is a separate implement held and manipulated
by the person. Although not a direct correlate to the idea of whether a
sailboat can only be such if the sail is attached to it, it does suggest a
precedent for non-attachment of the means of propulsion. What about those
river ferry raft-things that are moved by the person on board pulling on a
rope stretched across the river? Aren't hey vessels?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

Rule #a:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft,
including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being
used as a means of transportation on water.

Note "every" and "capable". FYI: A kite surfers board is a
non-displacement craft.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Is the ski a water skier stands on when being
pulled by a motorboat a vessel?

No it is not.

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

S.Simon



"Wally" wrote in message ...

The_navigator© wrote:


Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

NOT!

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
A water skier's board in the water is a vessel under tow.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

A water skier is pulled along by a boat with machinery
but a water ski is not a vessel.

Likewise a kite sailor is pulled along by a sail but the
kite sailor's board is not a vessel.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There is
nothing else possible.

Cheers MC

Wally wrote:

The_navigator© wrote:


OED:


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail,
or that catches the wind.


Note "c".


The dictionary, so far as I understand it, describes usages of words as part
of language, but not neccessarly a legal definition for the purpose of the
colregs (if the kitesail thingy is where this coming from / going).

Not saying it doesn't apply, though. On a canoe, the method of propulsion
isn't part of the vessel, but is a separate implement held and manipulated
by the person. Although not a direct correlate to the idea of whether a
sailboat can only be such if the sail is attached to it, it does suggest a
precedent for non-attachment of the means of propulsion. What about those
river ferry raft-things that are moved by the person on board pulling on a
rope stretched across the river? Aren't hey vessels?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

Wrong! Until you address the issue of a water skier not being
a vessel you will not be able to prove a kite sailor is a vessel.

They are one in the same. The only difference is the means
of propulsion.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
Rule #a:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft,
including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being
used as a means of transportation on water.

Note "every" and "capable". FYI: A kite surfers board is a
non-displacement craft.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Is the ski a water skier stands on when being
pulled by a motorboat a vessel?

No it is not.

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

S.Simon



"Wally" wrote in message ...

The_navigator© wrote:


Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

According to washington state legislatu

"Water skiing" means the physical act of being towed behind a vessel
on, but not limited to, any skis, aquaplane, kneeboard, tube, or any
other similar device.

Note the TOWED

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Wrong! Until you address the issue of a water skier not being
a vessel you will not be able to prove a kite sailor is a vessel.

They are one in the same. The only difference is the means
of propulsion.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Rule #a:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft,
including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being
used as a means of transportation on water.

Note "every" and "capable". FYI: A kite surfers board is a
non-displacement craft.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


Is the ski a water skier stands on when being
pulled by a motorboat a vessel?

No it is not.

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

S.Simon



"Wally" wrote in message ...


The_navigator© wrote:



Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

Simple Simon wrote:

A water skier's board in the water is a vessel under tow.

NOT!

So, if you were in a potential collision situation with the skier, would you
run over the water skier, or treat the towing vessel and skier in the same
way as one vessel towing another?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

Simple Simon wrote:

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

I'm not disputing that it's a grey area. Until it's resolved, however, how
should it be handled? I would take the precedent that there are vessels
who's means of propulsion isn't attached to them (like canoes) and treat the
kite sailor both as a vessel (rather than a hazard like a floating log, say)
and as a saiboat. In practcal terms, his mode of propulsion is subject to
the same vagaries a sailboat.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

Think of it in more practical terms. If it was bob**** on the ski/kite,
it'd be a barge under tow.

PDW

In article , Simple Simon
wrote:

A water skier is pulled along by a boat with machinery
but a water ski is not a vessel.

Likewise a kite sailor is pulled along by a sail but the
kite sailor's board is not a vessel.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...
Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There is
nothing else possible.

Cheers MC

Wally wrote:
The_navigator© wrote:

OED:


c. transf. Applied to something that is spread out like a sail,
or that catches the wind.


Note "c".


The dictionary, so far as I understand it, describes usages of words as
part
of language, but not neccessarly a legal definition for the purpose of the
colregs (if the kitesail thingy is where this coming from / going).

Not saying it doesn't apply, though. On a canoe, the method of propulsion
isn't part of the vessel, but is a separate implement held and manipulated
by the person. Although not a direct correlate to the idea of whether a
sailboat can only be such if the sail is attached to it, it does suggest a
precedent for non-attachment of the means of propulsion. What about those
river ferry raft-things that are moved by the person on board pulling on a
rope stretched across the river? Aren't hey vessels?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

What is a sail?

Neal . . .Anything I say it is.

Bobspit . . . That depends on the what the meaning of is is.

The rest of the world . . .See Below.

What is a sail?
 

The navigator© wrote:

OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas ......

While it's laughable to use the Oxford English Dictionary to reach for
conclusions in maritime law, I agree with Navvie© here. A kitesurfer is
covered by the ColRegs as a sailing vessel, as is a windsurfer, as is a
dugout canoe with a big leafy branch sticking up.

Why all the disagreement? Seems pretty obvious. I never thought straining
at gnats after swallowing a camel would be such a popular pastime.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

What is a sail?
 

So what? You can tow a condom behind a vessel; it does not
make a condom a vessel.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
According to washington state legislatu

"Water skiing" means the physical act of being towed behind a vessel
on, but not limited to, any skis, aquaplane, kneeboard, tube, or any
other similar device.

Note the TOWED

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Wrong! Until you address the issue of a water skier not being
a vessel you will not be able to prove a kite sailor is a vessel.

They are one in the same. The only difference is the means
of propulsion.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Rule #a:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft,
including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being
used as a means of transportation on water.

Note "every" and "capable". FYI: A kite surfers board is a
non-displacement craft.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


Is the ski a water skier stands on when being
pulled by a motorboat a vessel?

No it is not.

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

S.Simon



"Wally" wrote in message ...


The_navigator© wrote:



Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

Interacting with a water skier does not make
said skier a vessel.

S.Simon


"Wally" wrote in message ...
Simple Simon wrote:

A water skier's board in the water is a vessel under tow.

NOT!

So, if you were in a potential collision situation with the skier, would you
run over the water skier, or treat the towing vessel and skier in the same
way as one vessel towing another?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

If it's so obvious then please explain why a
water skier is not defined as a vessel.

The only difference between a water skier
and a kite boarder is one is being pulled by
the wind and the other is being pulled by a
vessel.

One cannot be classified as being towed by
the wind while one can classify a skier as
being towed by a vessel. If a water skier
while being towed is not a vessel, certainly
a kite boarder while not being towed is
not a vessel.

If you're going to use logic then use it.

S.Simon
"DSK" wrote in message ...
The navigator© wrote:

OED:

1. a. One of the shaped pieces of canvas ......

While it's laughable to use the Oxford English Dictionary to reach for
conclusions in maritime law, I agree with Navvie© here. A kitesurfer is
covered by the ColRegs as a sailing vessel, as is a windsurfer, as is a
dugout canoe with a big leafy branch sticking up.

Why all the disagreement? Seems pretty obvious. I never thought straining
at gnats after swallowing a camel would be such a popular pastime.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

What is a sail?
 

Does if it can transport to another place. Now there's an idea!!!!!!!!!

:-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ))))))))))0

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

So what? You can tow a condom behind a vessel; it does not
make a condom a vessel.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

According to washington state legislatu

"Water skiing" means the physical act of being towed behind a vessel
on, but not limited to, any skis, aquaplane, kneeboard, tube, or any
other similar device.

Note the TOWED

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


Wrong! Until you address the issue of a water skier not being
a vessel you will not be able to prove a kite sailor is a vessel.

They are one in the same. The only difference is the means
of propulsion.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...


Rule #a:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft,
including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being
used as a means of transportation on water.

Note "every" and "capable". FYI: A kite surfers board is a
non-displacement craft.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:



Is the ski a water skier stands on when being
pulled by a motorboat a vessel?

No it is not.

In like manner the board a kite sailor stands on is not a vessel.

I repeat. A kite sailor is not presently covered by the COLREGS.
It is a gray area that needs to be looked at.

S.Simon



"Wally" wrote in message ...



The_navigator© wrote:




Of course they are. The colregs are all inclusive. If the vessel is
making way she is being propelled by oars, sails or machinery. There
is nothing else possible.

Agreed. I would also say that the kitesail thingy is a vessel. I don't hold
with Neal's view that it isn't water transport because it 'only goes back
and forth' - dinghies don't suddenly become non-vessels when they go back
and forth around a two-can race course. Transporation doesn't neccessarily
connote passagemaking; nor does use of a particular water craft to go back
and forth neccessitate that it can't be used for passagemaking.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

What is a sail?
 

The ski is the vessel. It's not a diplacement craft.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Interacting with a water skier does not make
said skier a vessel.

S.Simon


"Wally" wrote in message ...

Simple Simon wrote:


A water skier's board in the water is a vessel under tow.

NOT!

So, if you were in a potential collision situation with the skier, would you
run over the water skier, or treat the towing vessel and skier in the same
way as one vessel towing another?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.