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Serious Sailing Cockpit???
The C&C 27 Mk V cockpit is designed for hanging out. No big winches to get in
the way...and only a puny tiller for those who like long sticks! http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/0/7/7/4/1077418_6.jpg Bwahahahahahaha! RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
The C&C 27 Mk V cockpit is designed for hanging out. No big winches to get in
the way...and only a puny tiller for those who like long sticks! Looks pretty cool to me. I like the tiller extension and the reverse camber coamings - sail it like a big dinghy. |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
I don't much like the traveller in front of the cockpit. It
just creates a hazard. "SkitchNYC" wrote in message ... The C&C 27 Mk V cockpit is designed for hanging out. No big winches to get in the way...and only a puny tiller for those who like long sticks! Looks pretty cool to me. I like the tiller extension and the reverse camber coamings - sail it like a big dinghy. |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
You're right. Rather than have it right there in the
way it would be smart to put a mid-boom sheeting traveler on the coach. The picture shows an example of poor design. S.Simon "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... I don't much like the traveller in front of the cockpit. It just creates a hazard. "SkitchNYC" wrote in message ... The C&C 27 Mk V cockpit is designed for hanging out. No big winches to get in the way...and only a puny tiller for those who like long sticks! Looks pretty cool to me. I like the tiller extension and the reverse camber coamings - sail it like a big dinghy. |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
The Irwin 30 we borrowed for a season had that, and I thought it was a horrible design. A
few years later a friend had to be taken to the emergency room for a Cat Scan after being whacked by the mainsheet in a jibe. The skipper said "yea, someone gets hit by that every year!" Following that he relocated the traveler to the coachroof. One reason why we went for the new PDQ, rather than slightly used, is that they relocated the traveler to the hardtop, so there are no dangerous lines in the cockpit. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... I don't much like the traveller in front of the cockpit. It just creates a hazard. "SkitchNYC" wrote in message ... The C&C 27 Mk V cockpit is designed for hanging out. No big winches to get in the way...and only a puny tiller for those who like long sticks! Looks pretty cool to me. I like the tiller extension and the reverse camber coamings - sail it like a big dinghy. |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
Jonathan Ganz wrote:
I don't much like the traveller in front of the cockpit. It just creates a hazard. Depends on the boat, depends on the cockpit design. Unless you're talking a 40 footer, aracer/cruiser is not going to have a big enough cockpit to split and run the traveler across the middle. A bridge deck traveller is the only sensible choice. Of course, some are poorly designed and/or afterthoughts. Some boats have short booms and don't have much sail area, so the leverage given up by putting the traveller further forward, above the companionway, is not too bad. But on a boat with a decent amount of horsepower in the rig, this is just going to make the main harder to trim. Might as well not have a traveller. Also, it's in the way of control lines. Another option is to put the traveller across the back of the cockpit. This is a good idea in boats with really long booms and wide aft sections; otherwise the traveller is too far back & too short to add much control over a simple centerline sheet block. It's noteworthy that all the hot rod racing dinghies don't even fool with travellers any more. They all have bridles and strong boom vangs. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
And contrary to what some of the armchair "experts" here think, you CAN get
more than 100% out of a boat. If you knew anything about sailing, you would know why. Such a subjective concept, I amazed that anyone would debate it as point of fact. Oh, wait...it's Binary Jane and his baby C&C 27 that costs less than my station wagon! Maybe he could get 40% out of it! 34XL, baby! Bwahahahahahaha! RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
The boat carries a relatively
tall rig, and my Mylar main is HUGE. There's a secure fella! We're all happy about your HUGE sail. There, there. RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
It's placed where it logically
belongs for this boat. In the way? RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
As the Chicago Ward Boss said, "We're behind you 110%!"
wrote in message ... On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:25:52 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote: You're right. Rather than have it right there in the way it would be smart to put a mid-boom sheeting traveler on the coach. The picture shows an example of poor design. S.Simon Yeah, do what the Crapton did and then you can have a banana boom just like he does, with a smile bigger than any ever found on a C&C keel. There is no problem with the traveler right where it is on the C&C 27-5. It has never seemed at all like a hazard, or in the way. The boat carries a relatively tall rig, and my Mylar main is HUGE. No way the traveler could work on the coach roof. THAT would be the bad design in this case. Meanwhile, the boom is too short to consider a traveler at the stern. It's placed where it logically belongs for this boat. And contrary to what some of the armchair "experts" here think, you CAN get more than 100% out of a boat. If you knew anything about sailing, you would know why. BB "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... I don't much like the traveller in front of the cockpit. It just creates a hazard. "SkitchNYC" wrote in message ... The C&C 27 Mk V cockpit is designed for hanging out. No big winches to get in the way...and only a puny tiller for those who like long sticks! Looks pretty cool to me. I like the tiller extension and the reverse camber coamings - sail it like a big dinghy. |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
Bobby Sue keeps talking about my boat being small. Doesn't he realize that his
present boat AND his alleged new boat are both considered small? In whose world? Billy Jane's magic C&C 27 land of make believe. My boat is twice yours in every way. The 34XL is more boat than you can handle or ever buy. Live with it, baby! RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
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Serious Sailing Cockpit???
The Captains Nemesis wrote:
The best of both worlds is end boom sheeting which comes back to a sheeting position in the centre of the boom then down to the floor/console or bridle. Yeah, the only problem there is the loop between end & mid blocks on the boom which provides a nifty auto-choking feature in gybes. I've sometimes felt this must have ben a Microsoft design... just kidding. It does give good control and good leverage. Remember the Loveday loop? Not under that name. One of those old-fashioned double ended mainsheets? For a while those were back in style on the 1/2 Ton and One Tonners and the like. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
RB
They are both small boats. One is much smaller...yours! One has twice the space and speed...mine! Live with it, baby! RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
One has twice the space and speed...mine!
Live with it, baby! RB This would only matter to you. Right! No one interested in sailing cares about performance and living space! Bwahahahahahahahaha! RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
You have some serious comprehension issues. Did you ever finish
elementary school? I liked my elementary school so much, I convinced my family to buy the property it sat on for me! Hooooh ahhhh! RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
Naysayers,
Traverler mounted in the cockpit. Just ONCE consider you are in a race, you are the main sail trimmer, you are using your weigth on the high side rail along with the helmsman, headsail trimmer. Where would you rather have the traveler than between your feet? There are times, when when racing. that the Jib sheets are crossed so that the trimmer can use the wench on the high side. Just think about it! The Helmsman has a tiller extension, the head sail trimmer is on the rail next to the winch controlling his sail and the main trimmer with the traveler line between his knees. Can anyone improve on that placement of equipment for a three man crew racing? I can't think of a better place than the cockpit for the traveler. AND; "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!" Ole Thom |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
wrote:
And contrary to what some of the armchair "experts" here think, you CAN get more than 100% out of a boat. If you knew anything about sailing, you would know why. DSK wrote: Please explain. I (for one) am here to learn. Also, please tell us which class(es) you have won regional championship(s) in. If you're more than an "armchair expert" on getting 100%(or more) performance out of a sailboat, then you should have found your level pretty high up the food chain. wrote: Are you really this slow, Doug? You seem headed towards Horvathville. Are you taking lessons in backpeddling from the Crapton and one-line come backs from Bubbles? It's pretty simple. If you can sail a boat at 100% of it's speed potential, you should have won at least *some* regattas at a higher level than local beer can chases. If you have no such history of winning, then you're talking through your hat... and trying to insult others on top of that. Come to think of it, this is more MC's style than yours. Having a tough day? Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
The Captains Nemesis wrote:
Remember the Loveday loop? Nope, neareest I could find on a quick search was this http://www.baaths.com/s77.html The site is worth a look, we've been using a variaotion on this compass for 30 years! They's sold backwards scaled compasses for decades, and I've had paired compasses for port & starboard on several boats. But OTOH it's fairly easy to remember that on starboard tack, higher is better. About the Loveday Loop... hate to be dense but I can't quite see what the radio ariel gizmo is. It looks like they've replaced the traveler with a post to get the mainsheet horizontal. I've seen this done on 470s and 505s with a upside down "U" that we used to call either a crash bar or whammy bar. Makes a nice handhold for roll tacks, too. It's a good system. At first I though you were talking about the old fashioned mainsheet system where the sheet & blocks form an upside down "V" at the back of the cockpit. There are still a bunch of Lightnings rigged with those, but they aren't the competitive ones..... Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
Nuty,
I do believe BB has you. Even your dream boat is still considered a Small Craft. OT |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
"Bobsprit" wrote in message ... RB They are both small boats. One is much smaller...yours! One has twice the space and speed...mine! Are you under the impression that Alien is a fast boat?? What an idiot! Regards Donal -- |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
So what? Does that make it a good design for family cruising? I'd hate to think that
some kid is sitting on the leeward side and his fate depends on a small cam cleat holding. A center line traveler may be appropriate for a racing boat - and I've raced a number of boats where its standard - but its a liability on a cruising boat, especially a family cruiser. "Thom Stewart" wrote in message ... Naysayers, Traverler mounted in the cockpit. Just ONCE consider you are in a race, you are the main sail trimmer, you are using your weigth on the high side rail along with the helmsman, headsail trimmer. Where would you rather have the traveler than between your feet? There are times, when when racing. that the Jib sheets are crossed so that the trimmer can use the wench on the high side. Just think about it! The Helmsman has a tiller extension, the head sail trimmer is on the rail next to the winch controlling his sail and the main trimmer with the traveler line between his knees. Can anyone improve on that placement of equipment for a three man crew racing? I can't think of a better place than the cockpit for the traveler. AND; "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!" Ole Thom |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
I do believe BB has you. Even your dream boat is still considered a
Small Craft. Has me where? Whatever it's considered, the 27 is tiny, about the same size as a Catalina 25 below and perhaps less. It's unlivable and a starter boat by any measure. The C&C 32 starts to approach living quarters that you can spend some time in. Everyone who's been aboard has been impressed with the room, the dinette, the usable nav/station and desk and even the headroom. The 27 has NONE of this and yet Billy Jane's family invented velcro! You'd think he could buy better. If he still wanted a "small" boat he could always buy himself the C&C 99, a boat that we briefly considered...still too small, especially for the dollar. RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
So you're defining "100%" as the polar prediction from a VPP program? I doubt there's a
racer out there that would agree with that. In many classes, if you sail to the VPP you'll only end up in the middle of the fleet. -jeff, Who hasn't been in a serious race since VPP was invented. wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:07:42 -0400, DSK wrote: wrote: And contrary to what some of the armchair "experts" here think, you CAN get more than 100% out of a boat. If you knew anything about sailing, you would know why. DSK wrote: Please explain. I (for one) am here to learn. Also, please tell us which class(es) you have won regional championship(s) in. If you're more than an "armchair expert" on getting 100%(or more) performance out of a sailboat, then you should have found your level pretty high up the food chain. wrote: Are you really this slow, Doug? You seem headed towards Horvathville. Are you taking lessons in backpeddling from the Crapton and one-line come backs from Bubbles? It's pretty simple. If you can sail a boat at 100% of it's speed potential, you should have won at least *some* regattas at a higher level than local beer can chases. If you have no such history of winning, then you're talking through your hat... and trying to insult others on top of that. Doug, I never even implied that I could get more than 100% out of my boat. I said it was something that could be done. I do practice using my boat's polars, and I do pretty well most of the time. I certainly do better now then when I first got the boat. Still, I sure don't claim that I consistently come close to 100%. My one and only point was that you possibly CAN get more out of a boat than 100%. Someone had posted that they thought that was impossible. Do you think it's impossible? BB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
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Serious Sailing Cockpit???
One has twice the space and speed...mine!
Are you under the impression that Alien is a fast boat?? Alien is above average for the boats in this group. My C&C34XL is rated as low as 83! Eat my wake, sea-snail! Bwahahahaha! RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
I never even implied that I could get more than 100% out of my boat. I
said it was something that could be done. What a wimpy backpedal. RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
"Bobsprit" wrote in message ... One has twice the space and speed...mine! Are you under the impression that Alien is a fast boat?? Alien is above average for the boats in this group. My C&C34XL is rated as low as 83! Do you own a C & C 34XL? Regards Donal -- |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
Alien is above average for the boats in this group. My C&C34XL is rated as
low as 83! Do you own a C & C 34XL? In two weeks! Stand by for the official announcement! BTW, I'll also own a CD 25 which I acquired at a yard auction. RB |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
The Captains Nemesis wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:30:43 -0400, "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote: So what? Does that make it a good design for family cruising? I'd hate to think that some kid is sitting on the leeward side and his fate depends on a small cam cleat holding. Teach "some small kid" to stay clear and keep an eye open. Not a very good answer when the hazard is in the middle of the cockpit. Sailing can be dangerous, keep it safe. That's my point. Some boats are safer than others. That's why some boats that may be well suited for racing are not good for family cruising. Oh and cam cleats rarely let go if loaded properly and replaced when worn. Yes, and uncontrolled jibes never happen. And the traveler doesn't move across on every tack. And any little kid that get his finger caught in it didn't deserve to play the violin. -jeff, whose kid has had a safe cockpit to play in since she was a week old. |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
Y'know, I can see both sides of this argument. Further comments interspersed:
Teach "some small kid" to stay clear and keep an eye open. Jeff Morris wrote: Not a very good answer when the hazard is in the middle of the cockpit. I don't see that it matters that much. Children who don't know what's what should be kept clear of things like lawnmowers and mid cockpit travelers. It also is smart to keep the traveler control lines taut on both sides, and keep the boat firmly under control... and teach all children (whatever their age) where NOT to stick their fingers. Pain is Mother Nature's way of saying, "You just made a mistake. Don't do that again." A little bit of pain is a marvelous teaching tool. Seems to be out of favor in modern educational doctrine. Sailing can be dangerous, keep it safe. That's my point. Some boats are safer than others. That's why some boats that may be well suited for racing are not good for family cruising. Again, both sides have good points. OTOH I grew up sailing on family owned racing boats, often in hotly contested races, and with impatient & vocal skippers. My grandfather, father, and uncles, were/are not among the worlds most mild mannered and calm voiced men. Keeping circumstances under control may be a problem for most skippers. Forseeing & forestalling any possible boo-boos is a must. This is going to be a lot easier on some boats than others. So (as always) the boat must be matched to the goal. Oh and cam cleats rarely let go if loaded properly and replaced when worn. Yep, almost never, in fact. Yes, and uncontrolled jibes never happen. Well, they shouldn't. Maybe you should spend some time sailing with my father, he'd teach you about uncontrolled gybing. ;) And the traveler doesn't move across on every tack. And any little kid that get his finger caught in it didn't deserve to play the violin. -jeff, whose kid has had a safe cockpit to play in since she was a week old. Personally, I worry more about child safety with regard to automobile wrecks & household chemicals than sailing. But then, safety is in the eye of the beholder... and between the ears of the skipper, when sailing. Fresh Breezes- Doug King who was sailing from infancy and often got hurt and/or scared doing so, but never permanently, and who since has taken many children from toddlers to 20 year olds and pretty much avoided trauma. |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
"DSK" wrote in message ... Y'know, I can see both sides of this argument. Further comments interspersed: Teach "some small kid" to stay clear and keep an eye open. Jeff Morris wrote: Not a very good answer when the hazard is in the middle of the cockpit. I don't see that it matters that much. Children who don't know what's what should be kept clear of things like lawnmowers and mid cockpit travelers. It also is smart to keep the traveler control lines taut on both sides, and keep the boat firmly under control... and teach all children (whatever their age) where NOT to stick their fingers. Pain is Mother Nature's way of saying, "You just made a mistake. Don't do that again." A little bit of pain is a marvelous teaching tool. Seems to be out of favor in modern educational doctrine. You could use that argument to justify any behaviour. Why not leave loaded guns around; all children should know enough not to play with them. Bottom line - some boats are setup safer than others. Sailing can be dangerous, keep it safe. That's my point. Some boats are safer than others. That's why some boats that may be well suited for racing are not good for family cruising. Again, both sides have good points. OTOH I grew up sailing on family owned racing boats, often in hotly contested races, and with impatient & vocal skippers. My grandfather, father, and uncles, were/are not among the worlds most mild mannered and calm voiced men. Keeping circumstances under control may be a problem for most skippers. Forseeing & forestalling any possible boo-boos is a must. This is going to be a lot easier on some boats than others. So (as always) the boat must be matched to the goal. That's my point. You have to have a special talent to take children on a racing machine. And even then, you probably don't want to take their yound friends as guests. Oh and cam cleats rarely let go if loaded properly and replaced when worn. Yep, almost never, in fact. As a racer I learned to avoid certain risky things, like being in the bight of a jib sheet. Blocks don't let go often, but you don't want to be in the wrong place when they do. A family boat should minimize these issues. Yes, and uncontrolled jibes never happen. Well, they shouldn't. Maybe you should spend some time sailing with my father, he'd teach you about uncontrolled gybing. ;) I'm not the person I'm concerned about. I've sailed for 45 years including 6 years as an instructor in dinghies. I don't have accidental jibes (when people are looking), and I've never had a crew or guest injured. I sailed the Irwin 30 with the cockpit traveler for a season without mishap, though I was always wary. It was the owner who has a history of sending people to the hospital. A side story - he's the only person I know that has run himself over in car. He was working under it with the front end on jackstands when he accidentally shorted the starter. The car was in gear an jumped on him, breaking his hip. Its people like this that should not have a traveler in the cockpit! And the traveler doesn't move across on every tack. And any little kid that get his finger caught in it didn't deserve to play the violin. -jeff, whose kid has had a safe cockpit to play in since she was a week old. Personally, I worry more about child safety with regard to automobile wrecks & household chemicals than sailing. But then, safety is in the eye of the beholder... and between the ears of the skipper, when sailing. My kid is eight and we still keep her in a booster seat - it reduced the chance of injury 75%. I'm not saying boats shouldn't have travelers, or that kids shouldn't be allowed on racing boats. I'm just saying that since a cockpit traveler is required, it should be avoided in a family cruiser. Fresh Breezes- Doug King who was sailing from infancy and often got hurt and/or scared doing so, but never permanently, and who since has taken many children from toddlers to 20 year olds and pretty much avoided trauma. -Jeff, who may have banged himself around a few times, but never done so to his crew or guests. |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
The Captains Nemesis wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:15:28 -0400, "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote: So what? Does that make it a good design for family cruising? I'd hate to think that some kid is sitting on the leeward side and his fate depends on a small cam cleat holding. Teach "some small kid" to stay clear and keep an eye open. Not a very good answer when the hazard is in the middle of the cockpit. What do you do about winches? My winches are on the periphery of a rather large cockpit. Sailing can be dangerous, keep it safe. That's my point. Some boats are safer than others. That's why some boats that may be well suited for racing are not good for family cruising. Oh and cam cleats rarely let go if loaded properly and replaced when worn. Yes, and uncontrolled jibes never happen. And the traveler doesn't move across on every tack. And any little kid that get his finger caught in it didn't deserve to play the violin. Wow, you must have some ancient systems onboard, and really unattentive helm and parents. Who said I was talking about my boat? I'm talking about average boats with average sailors. Are you saying that accidental jibes never happen? My claim is that on a proper family cruiser you can have the occaision mishap with triggering a trip to the hospital. If you want to sail safe, don't go so square as to risk a gybe,don't tack without making sure fingers/kids are clear just as you make sure the jibsheet is free to run. Or, get a boat that is a bit more forgiving than a racing boat. |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
I ran myself over with a motorcycle once. Then, it ran over my
friend who was laughing too hard to get out of the way. "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... A side story - he's the only person I know that has run himself over in car. He was working under it with the front end on jackstands when he accidentally shorted the starter. The car was in gear an jumped on him, breaking his hip. Its people like this that should not have a traveler in the cockpit! |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
"Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Alien is above average for the boats in this group. My C&C34XL is rated as low as 83! Do you own a C & C 34XL? In two weeks! Bwahahahahaha! So you don't! Regards Donal -- |
Serious Sailing Cockpit???
Do you own a C & C 34XL?
In two weeks! Bwahahahahaha! So you don't! Donal, hang on to that until the very last second! You're gonna need it. Some people dream of this boat or that boat. I make it happen. I'm already working on a yawl as my 5th boat to be sailed from my late 40's into early 50's, when I will probably settle down with something for a longer while. Perhaps a Baltic or something classic and restored. Enjoy your toy, Donal. RB |
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