Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

On Saturday my depth guage started acting up, just as I was entering Still
Pond anchorage (the entrance is narrow, between 2 sand spits) , however, I
looked around, saw NO wading birds and proceeded to blast full speed ahead .

SV


"Simple Simon" wrote

ANY water shallow enough to ground my boat will be evident
without a depth sounder. If nothing else all I have to do is watch
for wading birds.

S.Simon

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Or in the SF bay... mostly mud, some rocks, and a few crapola
hunters sitting on the bottom.

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Once again, you demonstrate very limited experience.

There are many locations where its not possible to avoid hazards just by
looking at the
water. This may be possible in the Keys or Bahamas (up to a point) but
not in New England
or the Chesapeake.

Most of the hard groundings I've witnessed could have been avoided if more
attention had
be paid to the depth sounder. For example, Boston Harbor has only one
non-obvious hazard
near the main channel, Lower Middle. You can't get close to it without
going through 100
yards of shallow water, yet someone whacks it every week. The Irwin 30 I
sailed for a
season hit it the next year at 6.5 knots in a GPS assisted incident. The
rudder was
broken and the engine was knocked off its mounts.

Neal, if you want to call yourself a "real sailor" you'll have to come up
to New England
to complete your education.



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
You're point is not valid for sailors. Only professional motor
boaters carry on in such a stupid fashion. Only sloppy captains
like Shen44 and Otnmbrd allow such a slovenly-run ship.

Any cruising sailor worth his salt can look into and at the water
and tell immediately if he is in shoal water by the color, wave
action, shape, etc. Depth sounders are simply not a vital instrument
of navigation. I'd be willing to bet more boats go aground while
the operator is looking at the instrument than when using visual
clues of sea state, color of water, etc.

S.Simon




"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Tell that to the crew of the Royal Majesty. They traveled most of the
way from
Bermuda to
Nantucket unaware that their GPS was not working. In the several
hours before they
grounded a glance at the depth sounder would have shown that they were
dangerously off
course.

Frankly I was appalled by this incident, since I have never relied
souly on GPS, but
always verify position with soundings or bearings.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1997/mar9701.pdf


--
-jeff
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
And, good morning to you, sir!

With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Good Morning Simple,

Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
finders
to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
accepted practest in DED piloting.

We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
5mph
wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
probabilly
spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play. Nice
and dry and warm.

OT

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

You're joking of course. You're telling me that you rely
on GPS as the only aid to navigation? There are many
charts that are not accurate and haven't been so for years
with no updates available.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum and
save yourself further embarrassment.

It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line of
sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.

CM

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| don't match long/lat info.
|
| "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| ...
| And, good morning to you, sir!
|
| With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
|
| S.Simon
|
|
| "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| ...
| Good Morning Simple,
|
| Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
finders
| to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| accepted practest in DED piloting.
|
| We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
5mph
| wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
probabilly
| spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into play.
Nice
| and dry and warm.
|
| OT
|
|
|
|
|

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

In your case, you're not capable of using a road map,
due to being majorly stupid, so don't worry about it.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:43:47 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
don't match long/lat info.

I guess I shouldn't use a road map because sometimes they are
inaccurate, and often have the wrong names, dumbass.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

And all this time I believed you actually went sailing on occasion. Booby was right - you
never have left your mooring. Anyone with half a brain would understand that its
virtually impossible to move a boat across the surface of the water without leaving a
wake. And at any speed over, say, half of hull speed it would be quite noticeable.

-jeff, whose catamaran hulls have a 12:1 L/B ratio, and so leave a very small wake, indeed


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
.

Bullcrap .... at best, works only sometimes .... what does your wake tell you?


Snipped all Shen's drivel that does not apply to small sailing yachts
because it becomes very tedious to keep trying to explain to a person
unfamiliar with sailing over and over and over again.

However, I can't resist replying to the above because cabin boy
Shen thinks he can trap me with his stupid wake question.

Well, Boy Shen, I happen to know motor vessels squat when the
water becomes very shallow. Looking at a motorboat wake can tell
you if you're fixin' to run aground. However, this has nothing to do
with sailboats that are unaffected by this sort of squatting in shallow
water because they don't make a wake because of the hull design.

Duh!

S.Simon

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

As an aid to navigation... Yes.. I use a GPS..... along with the other
tools... chrono, compass, log, charts, sounder, radar.


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You're joking of course. You're telling me that you rely
| on GPS as the only aid to navigation? There are many
| charts that are not accurate and haven't been so for years
| with no updates available.
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum
and
| save yourself further embarrassment.
|
| It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line
of
| sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
|
| CM
|
| "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| ...
| | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | don't match long/lat info.
| |
| | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | ...
| | And, good morning to you, sir!
| |
| | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| |
| | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Morning Simple,
| |
| | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
| finders
| | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| |
| | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
| 5mph
| | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| probabilly
| | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play.
| Nice
| | and dry and warm.
| |
| | OT
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Yah, like you really need all those things in a little bay you can see across
and have never sailed anyplace else.

S.Simon


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...
As an aid to navigation... Yes.. I use a GPS..... along with the other
tools... chrono, compass, log, charts, sounder, radar.


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You're joking of course. You're telling me that you rely
| on GPS as the only aid to navigation? There are many
| charts that are not accurate and haven't been so for years
| with no updates available.
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum
and
| save yourself further embarrassment.
|
| It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line
of
| sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
|
| CM
|
| "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| ...
| | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | don't match long/lat info.
| |
| | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | ...
| | And, good morning to you, sir!
| |
| | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| |
| | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Morning Simple,
| |
| | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
| finders
| | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| |
| | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
| 5mph
| | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| probabilly
| | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play.
| Nice
| | and dry and warm.
| |
| | OT
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

First off it's difficult to believe that any stretches of the ICW are poorly
charted. I'm not a big proponent of GPS accuracy... I do concur with Jon's
assertion that it's a tool... it has it's limits and should never be relied
on as sole source for navigation. That being said... I've seen supposedly
competent sailors use default datum or operate in 3D fix modes. What I don't
agree with is ...

A]- "You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart"
That position would have you question your radar, sonar, chronograph and
compasses.. never mind the plotting tools!

B]- "It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to actual
obstructions"

It does indeed confirm a fix if you have a chart..... so does radar.

C]- "Charts are notoriously inaccurate and don't match long/lat info

P-l-l-u-u-u-u-e-e-e-e-z-z-z-z-e-e-e...... they certainly are Not!.
Especially if
you can read one, verify fixes and have the latest datum.

CM






"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Jon has a point. There are certain locations that are notoriously poorly
charted,
| datum-wise. The ChartKit I have for the Bahamas is way off. I also
found that for long
| stretches of the ICW, my charted position was on dry land.
|
| For most of where I sail, however, the GPS and the chart agree to a boat
length or better.
|
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum
and
| save yourself further embarrassment.
|
| It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line
of
| sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
|
| CM
|
| "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| ...
| | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | don't match long/lat info.
| |
| | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | ...
| | And, good morning to you, sir!
| |
| | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| |
| | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Morning Simple,
| |
| | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
finders
| | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| |
| | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
5mph
| | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| probabilly
| | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play.
| Nice
| | and dry and warm.
| |
| | OT
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Good point.
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Good memory but that statement does not mean I don't simply
turn the thing off when off-soundings. What's the use of having a
depth sounder on when all it shows is no bottom?

S.Simon


"The Carrolls" wrote in message
...
Hay, you said " I don't ;ike to see readings on my depth sounder for
extended periods of time,..." I guess you also deserve to be attacked.
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Anybody running a depth sounder in water deep enough for large
whales deserves to be attacked.

S.Simon


"Sidney Greenstreet" wrote in message
ink.net...
Sydney: Marine electronics technician A.E. Patterson has discovered
that
the
depth finder used aboard a sailboat that was attacked by a whale was
faulty
and may have provoked the whale into attacking the craft.
Marine biologist Ian McDonald said the sounds from the defective
transducer
mimicked those of a territorial whale. Patterson added the
transducer
may
have given faulty depth readings as well. Yacht skipper Geoff
Whitlam
said
he noticed no malfunction of the unit at all and remarked that at
the
time
of the attack the head was clogged and being unplugged. Tommy
Woodcock,
aboard and unclogging the head at the time of attack added that the
sound of
the pumping unit was quite strange as it was filled with toilet
paper
and a
unusually large grogen. "The grogen had fermented for about a day
in
the
escape chute" Woodcock asserted. "Perhaps the aquatic mammal
recognized
the
yacht as a whale giving birth to a mutated offspring and acted
accordingly".
"Needless to say, it'll be a while before I patronize Rachel
Carson's
tuck
shop, I couldn't stomach strolling about with a trolley load of
Aussie
pies
and vegemide".

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Whew. You had me worried...

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
As an aid to navigation... Yes.. I use a GPS..... along with the other
tools... chrono, compass, log, charts, sounder, radar.


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| You're joking of course. You're telling me that you rely
| on GPS as the only aid to navigation? There are many
| charts that are not accurate and haven't been so for years
| with no updates available.
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum
and
| save yourself further embarrassment.
|
| It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line
of
| sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
|
| CM
|
| "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| ...
| | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | don't match long/lat info.
| |
| | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | ...
| | And, good morning to you, sir!
| |
| | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| |
| | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Morning Simple,
| |
| | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
| finders
| | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is
an
| | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| |
| | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
| 5mph
| | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| probabilly
| | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play.
| Nice
| | and dry and warm.
| |
| | OT
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Its not that the ICW is poorly charted, its that the chart only has to be off by 100 feet
to put you on land. Its possible that the last time through SA was turned on for a while,
but I really had the feeling that several of the charts I was using was simply displaced
by 100 feet of so. So how often do you think the creeks in Georgia get re-surveyed?

For an article on the errors in Bimini, see:
http://www.bluewaterweb.com/news/9-01gps.htm

Your comments are inconsistent - first you say GPS "should never be relied on as sole
source" but you claim that you don't agree with "You should not rely on a GPS when using a
chart."

Seems to me that you just like to argue and you don't care whether you make any sense. At
least Neal sticks to one position, albeit usually wrong.


--
-jeff
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
First off it's difficult to believe that any stretches of the ICW are poorly
charted. I'm not a big proponent of GPS accuracy... I do concur with Jon's
assertion that it's a tool... it has it's limits and should never be relied
on as sole source for navigation. That being said... I've seen supposedly
competent sailors use default datum or operate in 3D fix modes. What I don't
agree with is ...

A]- "You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart"
That position would have you question your radar, sonar, chronograph and
compasses.. never mind the plotting tools!

B]- "It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to actual
obstructions"

It does indeed confirm a fix if you have a chart..... so does radar.

C]- "Charts are notoriously inaccurate and don't match long/lat info

P-l-l-u-u-u-u-e-e-e-e-z-z-z-z-e-e-e...... they certainly are Not!.
Especially if
you can read one, verify fixes and have the latest datum.

CM






"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Jon has a point. There are certain locations that are notoriously poorly
charted,
| datum-wise. The ChartKit I have for the Bahamas is way off. I also
found that for long
| stretches of the ICW, my charted position was on dry land.
|
| For most of where I sail, however, the GPS and the chart agree to a boat
length or better.
|
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct datum
and
| save yourself further embarrassment.
|
| It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with line
of
| sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
|
| CM
|
| "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| ...
| | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | don't match long/lat info.
| |
| | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | ...
| | And, good morning to you, sir!
| |
| | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| |
| | S.Simon
| |
| |
| | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Morning Simple,
| |
| | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
finders
| | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This is an
| | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| |
| | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have about
5mph
| | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| probabilly
| | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
play.
| Nice
| | and dry and warm.
| |
| | OT
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

not me, I just follow the sun.

SV

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
As an aid to navigation... Yes.. I use a GPS..... along with the other
tools... chrono, compass, log, charts, sounder, radar.

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Isn't that the whole point of Usenet?


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote

Seems to me that you just like to argue and you don't care whether you
make any sense.

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Its not that the ICW is poorly charted, its that the chart only has to be off by 100 feet
to put you on land. Its possible that the last time through SA was turned on for a while,
but I really had the feeling that several of the charts I was using was simply displaced
by 100 feet of so. So how often do you think the creeks in Georgia get re-surveyed?

For an article on the errors in Bimini, see:
http://www.bluewaterweb.com/news/9-01gps.htm

Your comments are inconsistent - first you say GPS "should never be relied on as sole
source" but you claim that you don't agree with "You should not rely on a GPS when using a
chart."

Seems to me that you just like to argue and you don't care whether you make any sense. At
least Neal sticks to one position, albeit usually wrong.


Like when I wrote that perhaps I should give you more credit for being a
real sailor? He he!

S.Simon

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

"Simple Simon" wrote:
"Jeff Morris" wrote:

Seems to me that you just like to argue and you don't care whether you make any sense.
At
least Neal sticks to one position, albeit usually wrong.


Like when I wrote that perhaps I should give you more credit for being a
real sailor? He he!


I don't disagree with your conclusion but your reason for giving me that special
recognition was faulty.

jeff - A real sailor for many reasons

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Isn't that the whole point of Usenet?

No.



Regards


Donal
--

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote

Seems to me that you just like to argue and you don't care whether you
make any sense.

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

By what definition is that about a wake? Simian, your blowing smoke
again. A Wake is formed by any movement of the hull thru the water.

OT

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Try not to talk down to someone that has spent time in cartography Jeff.
With an expected accuracy of 50 feet max... a GPS is accurate enough but not
pin point. I believe I stated it should be used in conjunction with a chart
and not as a stand alone based on waypoint data not verified to the chart
datum. If you have a chart whose GPS Data puts you aground by 100 feet...
you are either using errata datum or your chart is ****ed. Do you have any
comprehension of the sphere labeled as "sea level" and the fact it's
actually a not actually perfectly spherical?

You want to really converse on the specifics of GPS with someone that has
utilized it for data triangulation. I have targeted data over a 48 hour
period based on surveyed benchmarks that clearly illustrates the accuracy
expected at differing latitudes and altitudes. It looks like a shot gun
pattern at 20 meters.[s/a off] I can still give you the error ratio for your
chart with 3 separate fixes confirmed and verified by alternate sources.

A correctly configured GPS is a great tool...... when used by knowledgeable
people and proper charts.

CM

You can rely on a GPS to provide very usable data once you ascertain it's
accuracy on a chart by comparative data. Once that is established... you
should be well aware of your coordinates
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Its not that the ICW is poorly charted, its that the chart only has to be
off by 100 feet
| to put you on land. Its possible that the last time through SA was turned
on for a while,
| but I really had the feeling that several of the charts I was using was
simply displaced
| by 100 feet of so. So how often do you think the creeks in Georgia get
re-surveyed?
|
| For an article on the errors in Bimini, see:
| http://www.bluewaterweb.com/news/9-01gps.htm
|
| Your comments are inconsistent - first you say GPS "should never be relied
on as sole
| source" but you claim that you don't agree with "You should not rely on a
GPS when using a
| chart."
|
| Seems to me that you just like to argue and you don't care whether you
make any sense. At
| least Neal sticks to one position, albeit usually wrong.
|
|
| --
| -jeff
| "Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| First off it's difficult to believe that any stretches of the ICW are
poorly
| charted. I'm not a big proponent of GPS accuracy... I do concur with
Jon's
| assertion that it's a tool... it has it's limits and should never be
relied
| on as sole source for navigation. That being said... I've seen
supposedly
| competent sailors use default datum or operate in 3D fix modes. What I
don't
| agree with is ...
|
| A]- "You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart"
| That position would have you question your radar, sonar, chronograph and
| compasses.. never mind the plotting tools!
|
| B]- "It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to actual
| obstructions"
|
| It does indeed confirm a fix if you have a chart..... so does radar.
|
| C]- "Charts are notoriously inaccurate and don't match long/lat info
|
| P-l-l-u-u-u-u-e-e-e-e-z-z-z-z-e-e-e...... they certainly are Not!.
| Especially if
| you can read one, verify fixes and have the latest datum.
|
| CM
|
|
|
|
|
|
| "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
| ...
| | Jon has a point. There are certain locations that are notoriously
poorly
| charted,
| | datum-wise. The ChartKit I have for the Bahamas is way off. I also
| found that for long
| | stretches of the ICW, my charted position was on dry land.
| |
| | For most of where I sail, however, the GPS and the chart agree to a
boat
| length or better.
| |
| |
| | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct
datum
| and
| | save yourself further embarrassment.
| |
| | It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with
line
| of
| | sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
| |
| | CM
| |
| | "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| | ...
| | | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | | don't match long/lat info.
| | |
| | | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | | ...
| | | And, good morning to you, sir!
| | |
| | | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| | |
| | | S.Simon
| | |
| | |
| | | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | | ...
| | | Good Morning Simple,
| | |
| | | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
| finders
| | | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This
is an
| | | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| | |
| | | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have
about
| 5mph
| | | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| | probabilly
| | | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
| play.
| | Nice
| | | and dry and warm.
| | |
| | | OT
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
|

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Wrong! Have you ever heard of an "Idle Speed - No Wake" zone?
Have you ever heard of a "Slow Speed - Minimum Wake" zone?

Sailboats don't make a wake. A sailboat at most makes a little
series of waves that follow along behind when at hull speed.
These waves do not constite the lawful definiton af a wake.

I hope this helps.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
By what definition is that about a wake? Simian, your blowing smoke
again. A Wake is formed by any movement of the hull thru the water.

OT

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:37:00 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote this crap:

not me, I just follow the sun.

So, in the morning, you head East. And in the afternoon, you go back
where you started?



Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

I sleep in.


"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:37:00 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote this crap:

not me, I just follow the sun.

So, in the morning, you head East. And in the afternoon, you go back
where you started?



Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote :
Try not to talk down to someone that has spent time in cartography Jeff.

Why not? You talk down to everyone!

With an expected accuracy of 50 feet max... a GPS is accurate enough but not
pin point. I believe I stated it should be used in conjunction with a chart
and not as a stand alone based on waypoint data not verified to the chart
datum. If you have a chart whose GPS Data puts you aground by 100 feet...
you are either using errata datum or your chart is ****ed.

Yes - that's the point - there are still such charts out there!

Do you have any
comprehension of the sphere labeled as "sea level" and the fact it's
actually a not actually perfectly spherical?

Try not to talk down to someone who spent many years programming spacecraft navigation for
NASA. Geodesy was not my specialty, but I'm not unfamiliar with the basics. Is there a
point to this, or are you just being jaxian?


You want to really converse on the specifics of GPS with someone that has
utilized it for data triangulation. I have targeted data over a 48 hour
period based on surveyed benchmarks that clearly illustrates the accuracy
expected at differing latitudes and altitudes. It looks like a shot gun
pattern at 20 meters.[s/a off] I can still give you the error ratio for your
chart with 3 separate fixes confirmed and verified by alternate sources.


Now you're really sounding like Jax. Well, OK, Jax would have claimed he had an expert
friend that did it.

A correctly configured GPS is a great tool...... when used by knowledgeable
people and proper charts.


I'm not saying it isn't a great tool - but every now and then it can lead one astray, or
give one a false sense of security. Not every chart is perfect, and not every channel
stays where its supposed to.


--
-jeff
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright


CM

You can rely on a GPS to provide very usable data once you ascertain it's
accuracy on a chart by comparative data. Once that is established... you
should be well aware of your coordinates
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Its not that the ICW is poorly charted, its that the chart only has to be
off by 100 feet
| to put you on land. Its possible that the last time through SA was turned
on for a while,
| but I really had the feeling that several of the charts I was using was
simply displaced
| by 100 feet of so. So how often do you think the creeks in Georgia get
re-surveyed?
|
| For an article on the errors in Bimini, see:
| http://www.bluewaterweb.com/news/9-01gps.htm
|
| Your comments are inconsistent - first you say GPS "should never be relied
on as sole
| source" but you claim that you don't agree with "You should not rely on a
GPS when using a
| chart."
|
| Seems to me that you just like to argue and you don't care whether you
make any sense. At
| least Neal sticks to one position, albeit usually wrong.
|
|
| --
| -jeff
| "Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| First off it's difficult to believe that any stretches of the ICW are
poorly
| charted. I'm not a big proponent of GPS accuracy... I do concur with
Jon's
| assertion that it's a tool... it has it's limits and should never be
relied
| on as sole source for navigation. That being said... I've seen
supposedly
| competent sailors use default datum or operate in 3D fix modes. What I
don't
| agree with is ...
|
| A]- "You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart"
| That position would have you question your radar, sonar, chronograph and
| compasses.. never mind the plotting tools!
|
| B]- "It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to actual
| obstructions"
|
| It does indeed confirm a fix if you have a chart..... so does radar.
|
| C]- "Charts are notoriously inaccurate and don't match long/lat info
|
| P-l-l-u-u-u-u-e-e-e-e-z-z-z-z-e-e-e...... they certainly are Not!.
| Especially if
| you can read one, verify fixes and have the latest datum.
|
| CM
|
|
|
|
|
|
| "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
| ...
| | Jon has a point. There are certain locations that are notoriously
poorly
| charted,
| | datum-wise. The ChartKit I have for the Bahamas is way off. I also
| found that for long
| | stretches of the ICW, my charted position was on dry land.
| |
| | For most of where I sail, however, the GPS and the chart agree to a
boat
| length or better.
| |
| |
| | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Were did you dig up this crap Jon??? Learn how to enter correct
datum
| and
| | save yourself further embarrassment.
| |
| | It's a good thing both you and Neal sail in protected waters with
line
| of
| | sight navigation or there would be a lot less boats around.
| |
| | CM
| |
| | "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
| | ...
| | | You should not rely on a GPS when using a chart. It's a tool
| | | only. It tells you nothing about your actual position relative to
| | | actual obstructions. Charts are notoriously inaccurate and
| | | don't match long/lat info.
| | |
| | | "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| | | ...
| | | And, good morning to you, sir!
| | |
| | | With the advent of GPS and its accurate nature, plotting your
| | | position on a chart is a more accurate method than using
| | | depth readings and dead reckoning. It's that simple.
| | |
| | | S.Simon
| | |
| | |
| | | "Thom Stewart" wrote in message
| | | ...
| | | Good Morning Simple,
| | |
| | | Many of us SAILORS that sail among Whales use charts and depth
| finders
| | | to get a location of exactly where we are on the chart. This
is an
| | | accepted practest in DED piloting.
| | |
| | | We finally got a nice cleaning rain last night and we have
about
| 5mph
| | | wind at the house here. Waiting for my dog to wake up. We'll
| | probabilly
| | | spend the day out on the water. The Pilothouse will come into
| play.
| | Nice
| | | and dry and warm.
| | |
| | | OT
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
|

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Jeff Morris wrote:



Try not to talk down to someone who spent many years programming spacecraft navigation for
NASA.


Given NASA's track record vis-a-vis Mars mission navigation of late I'm
not sure this bestowes upon you any great bragging rights. ;-)

Cheers
Marty

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Hey S.Simian,

"SlowSpeed-- Min Wake" what the hell kind of statement is that? Are you
trying to say, minium wake is the same as " No Wake"? You can't slant
your stupid original statement anyway enough to make it appear correct!
Why don't you just admit you FU'd rather than dig your hole any deeper?
G

OT

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Jeeze! You make one little mistake ...

Actually, all of my software ran on the ground. I worked on a space based telescope and
all of the data had to be corrected for the wobble of the 'scope. I was the senior
programmer for the data analysis group and thus had a hand in everything, but my specialty
was graphics display, so the pictures I took ended up in Scientific American and all the
astrophysics journals. I even had a display running in the Air & Space Museum until a few
years ago. Of course, not being a PhD, I hardly ever got any credit for it.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message ...
Jeff Morris wrote:



Try not to talk down to someone who spent many years programming spacecraft navigation
for
NASA.


Given NASA's track record vis-a-vis Mars mission navigation of late I'm
not sure this bestowes upon you any great bragging rights. ;-)

Cheers
Marty

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Boy are you posting nonsense these days.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

By definition, a wake is only formed when a boat is exceeding it's
hull speed.

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Wake: The track made by a moving body in a fluid.

From this can I conclude your boat desn't move much?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Wrong! Have you ever heard of an "Idle Speed - No Wake" zone?
Have you ever heard of a "Slow Speed - Minimum Wake" zone?

Sailboats don't make a wake. A sailboat at most makes a little
series of waves that follow along behind when at hull speed.
These waves do not constite the lawful definiton af a wake.

I hope this helps.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...

By what definition is that about a wake? Simian, your blowing smoke
again. A Wake is formed by any movement of the hull thru the water.

OT

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Hey it got there!

Cheers MC

Martin Baxter wrote:


Given NASA's track record vis-a-vis Mars mission navigation of late I'm
not sure this bestowes upon you any great bragging rights. ;-)

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

You claimed boats make a wake if they are underway. I
proved you wrong. If there is a law stating "NO WAKE"
then it stands to reason that if boats made wakes anytime
they were underway "NO WAKE" would mean "NO BOATS".

Minimum wake means make the smallest wake possible while
going slow. Neither of these speed zones apply to sailboats.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is sailboats don't
make a wake according to the legal definition of the term.

You lose again!

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Hey S.Simian,

"SlowSpeed-- Min Wake" what the hell kind of statement is that? Are you
trying to say, minium wake is the same as " No Wake"? You can't slant
your stupid original statement anyway enough to make it appear correct!
Why don't you just admit you FU'd rather than dig your hole any deeper?
G

OT

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

No, it means that the "no wake" laws in Florida are to prevent propeller strikes, or high
speed hull strikes on manatees. Thus, they only apply to powerboats.

Its typical of Neal to consider the Florida Legislature as the definitive authority on
nautical issues. How jaxian of him.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
You claimed boats make a wake if they are underway. I
proved you wrong. If there is a law stating "NO WAKE"
then it stands to reason that if boats made wakes anytime
they were underway "NO WAKE" would mean "NO BOATS".

Minimum wake means make the smallest wake possible while
going slow. Neither of these speed zones apply to sailboats.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is sailboats don't
make a wake according to the legal definition of the term.

You lose again!

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Hey S.Simian,

"SlowSpeed-- Min Wake" what the hell kind of statement is that? Are you
trying to say, minium wake is the same as " No Wake"? You can't slant
your stupid original statement anyway enough to make it appear correct!
Why don't you just admit you FU'd rather than dig your hole any deeper?
G

OT

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Talk about your fourth partial derivatives. Where is Gilligan when you need
him?

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
You claimed boats make a wake if they are underway. I
proved you wrong. If there is a law stating "NO WAKE"
then it stands to reason that if boats made wakes anytime
they were underway "NO WAKE" would mean "NO BOATS".

Minimum wake means make the smallest wake possible while
going slow. Neither of these speed zones apply to sailboats.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is sailboats don't
make a wake according to the legal definition of the term.

You lose again!

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Hey S.Simian,

"SlowSpeed-- Min Wake" what the hell kind of statement is that? Are you
trying to say, minium wake is the same as " No Wake"? You can't slant
your stupid original statement anyway enough to make it appear correct!
Why don't you just admit you FU'd rather than dig your hole any deeper?
G

OT

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

I have an ad running the Dallas Morning News classified, beginning tomorrow.
To wit:

www.cowboymob.com


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Jeeze! You make one little mistake ...

Actually, all of my software ran on the ground. I worked on a space based
telescope and
all of the data had to be corrected for the wobble of the 'scope. I was
the senior
programmer for the data analysis group and thus had a hand in everything,
but my specialty
was graphics display, so the pictures I took ended up in Scientific
American and all the
astrophysics journals. I even had a display running in the Air & Space
Museum until a few
years ago. Of course, not being a PhD, I hardly ever got any credit for
it.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Jeff Morris wrote:



Try not to talk down to someone who spent many years programming
spacecraft navigation
for
NASA.


Given NASA's track record vis-a-vis Mars mission navigation of late I'm
not sure this bestowes upon you any great bragging rights. ;-)

Cheers
Marty

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

Wrong again , S. Simian;

Those signs are mounted on the shore. They are to prevent "Wake" on the
shore line, not on the hull line

Once again; you've come to Neal conclusion which is wrong. My friend
you're need for another Slant to your statement; " Sailboats don't have
Wakes until they exceed hull speed." is definitely needed!

Try Again Simpleton, try again

Ole Thom

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

You argue as illogically as any woman I've ever met.
Better check your Haynes boxers! Sure they aren't
the Victoria's Secret knock-offs?

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Wrong again , S. Simian;

Those signs are mounted on the shore. They are to prevent "Wake" on the
shore line, not on the hull line

Once again; you've come to Neal conclusion which is wrong. My friend
you're need for another Slant to your statement; " Sailboats don't have
Wakes until they exceed hull speed." is definitely needed!

Try Again Simpleton, try again

Ole Thom

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

The Captains Nemesis wrote in message
...
Thom, I'm beginning to think that this new Neale is an imposter, taken
the place of the one that appeared to have some knowledge.

Cripes! It's taken you long enough.




Regards


Donal
---

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

With this statement you are in contention for the famous sword-through-
the-neck award.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
You claimed boats make a wake if they are underway. I
proved you wrong. If there is a law stating "NO WAKE"
then it stands to reason that if boats made wakes anytime
they were underway "NO WAKE" would mean "NO BOATS".

Minimum wake means make the smallest wake possible while
going slow. Neither of these speed zones apply to sailboats.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is sailboats don't
make a wake according to the legal definition of the term.

You lose again!

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Hey S.Simian,

"SlowSpeed-- Min Wake" what the hell kind of statement is that? Are you
trying to say, minium wake is the same as " No Wake"? You can't slant
your stupid original statement anyway enough to make it appear correct!
Why don't you just admit you FU'd rather than dig your hole any deeper?
G

OT

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

The Captains Nemesis wrote in message

| Thom, I'm beginning to think that this new Neale is an imposter, taken
| the place of the one that appeared to have some knowledge.

Well of course.... The original Capt. Neal sold the Coronado and the rights
to post here under a new sig but same web site. The new owners are gay and
take turns imitating Capt. Neal. That's why his posts are so wildly
fluctuating in content and dispersion... just check Two Wheel's data
submissions.

CM

Faulty depth finder attributed to whale attack!!
 

So you can find it?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Good memory but that statement does not mean I don't simply
turn the thing off when off-soundings. What's the use of having a
depth sounder on when all it shows is no bottom?