Crew lost!
 

My nephew was in a coma for around 2 weeks, my brother and his wife had to
make a decision to pull the plug or not. The doctors encouraged them to
pull it. Guess they needed the bed. Anyways, there's always that nagging
little 'what if'' thought afterwards.

SV

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
That person would have to be in a coma to not be able to respond or
communicate.

CM

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| Good question. I'll answer that with another one... what about
| the situation where, as you say, the person hasn't specifically
| expressed a wish to be euthanised, but is in obvious agony
| and can not speak, and of course, there is no reasonable
| outlook for recovery or improvement? Moreover, what if
| that "person" is an animal that can't express its thoughts, but
| is just as obviously in pain most or all of the time?
|
| I am not an advocate of euthanasia per se. I am an advocate
| of treating people with respect, especially if they voice their
| wishes.
|
| "Wally" wrote in message
| ...
| Jonathan Ganz wrote:
| For me, the most humane option when one sees a loved one
| suffering is to try and end the suffering of that person or other
| being. I can't speak to whether or not this particular blind (or
| otherwise afflicted) cat was suffering, but I can speak to not
| wanting a loved one to suffer and seeking to end that suffering,
| especially when that loved one can no longer do anything but
| beg to have an end to it.
|
| If the loved one hasn't expressed a wish to be euthanised, is it still
| humane?
|
|
| --
| Wally
| www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
| Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.
|
|
|
|
|

Crew lost!
 

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:19:10 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote this crap:

My nephew was in a coma for around 2 weeks, my brother and his wife had to
make a decision to pull the plug or not. The doctors encouraged them to
pull it. Guess they needed the bed. Anyways, there's always that nagging
little 'what if'' thought afterwards.

Ganz has been in a coma for the last two years.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Crew lost!
 

And I just bet you'd like to 'pull his plug'.

SV

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:19:10 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote this crap:

My nephew was in a coma for around 2 weeks, my brother and his wife had
to
make a decision to pull the plug or not. The doctors encouraged them to
pull it. Guess they needed the bed. Anyways, there's always that
nagging
little 'what if'' thought afterwards.

Ganz has been in a coma for the last two years.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Crew lost!
 

Actually, that's not necessarily true, as I can attest to from having a
close relative in the situation. He was in agony, was conscious, but
couldn't communicate.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
That person would have to be in a coma to not be able to respond or
communicate.

CM

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
| Good question. I'll answer that with another one... what about
| the situation where, as you say, the person hasn't specifically
| expressed a wish to be euthanised, but is in obvious agony
| and can not speak, and of course, there is no reasonable
| outlook for recovery or improvement? Moreover, what if
| that "person" is an animal that can't express its thoughts, but
| is just as obviously in pain most or all of the time?
|
| I am not an advocate of euthanasia per se. I am an advocate
| of treating people with respect, especially if they voice their
| wishes.
|
| "Wally" wrote in message
| ...
| Jonathan Ganz wrote:
| For me, the most humane option when one sees a loved one
| suffering is to try and end the suffering of that person or other
| being. I can't speak to whether or not this particular blind (or
| otherwise afflicted) cat was suffering, but I can speak to not
| wanting a loved one to suffer and seeking to end that suffering,
| especially when that loved one can no longer do anything but
| beg to have an end to it.
|
| If the loved one hasn't expressed a wish to be euthanised, is it still
| humane?
|
|
| --
| Wally
| www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
| Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.
|
|
|
|
|

Crew lost!
 

Horass, if you were in a coma, you would be acting a lot smarter.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:19:10 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote this crap:

My nephew was in a coma for around 2 weeks, my brother and his wife had
to
make a decision to pull the plug or not. The doctors encouraged them to
pull it. Guess they needed the bed. Anyways, there's always that
nagging
little 'what if'' thought afterwards.

Ganz has been in a coma for the last two years.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Crew lost!
 

I wish you hadn't given him the idea. Now he's going to make
even more frequent telephone calls!

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
And I just bet you'd like to 'pull his plug'.

SV

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:19:10 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote this crap:

My nephew was in a coma for around 2 weeks, my brother and his wife had
to
make a decision to pull the plug or not. The doctors encouraged them
to
pull it. Guess they needed the bed. Anyways, there's always that
nagging
little 'what if'' thought afterwards.

Ganz has been in a coma for the last two years.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Crew lost!
 

Like when Katy broke her leg?

Ending suffering doesn't need to go as far as euthanasia. Ending =
suffering can be relieving a person of stress, it can be a medical =
option of administering drugs that may otherwise not be given, such as =
in a Hospice situation. And it wasn't I that suffered so much with my =
broken leg but all of you for having to listen to me about it. Did my =
little sadistic heart some good and helped relieve whatever real =
suffering I was suffering...

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Crew lost!
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Good question. I'll answer that with another one... what about
the situation where, as you say, the person hasn't specifically
expressed a wish to be euthanised, but is in obvious agony
and can not speak, and of course, there is no reasonable
outlook for recovery or improvement?

I have no wish to die at the hands of another, and I don't think I have the
right to make that decision for someone else who is unable to express a view
one way or the other. Pain is a 'now' concept and tomorrow is another day.


Moreover, what if
that "person" is an animal that can't express its thoughts, but
is just as obviously in pain most or all of the time?

We can't read their minds and we infer that they're in pain by observing
their behaviours. I sometimes wonder if people have a sick pet put down
because they can't face the prospect of watching it die a slow death.


I am not an advocate of euthanasia per se. I am an advocate
of treating people with respect, especially if they voice their
wishes.


It's my view that, to euthanise someone 'with respect', their wish that this
be done is a prerequisite.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Crew lost!
 

Not from what I've seen. It's easy to say pain is a now concept.
It's another to either be in the now for weeks/months on end or
watch someone wither away who is.

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Good question. I'll answer that with another one... what about
the situation where, as you say, the person hasn't specifically
expressed a wish to be euthanised, but is in obvious agony
and can not speak, and of course, there is no reasonable
outlook for recovery or improvement?

I have no wish to die at the hands of another, and I don't think I have
the
right to make that decision for someone else who is unable to express a
view
one way or the other. Pain is a 'now' concept and tomorrow is another day.


Moreover, what if
that "person" is an animal that can't express its thoughts, but
is just as obviously in pain most or all of the time?

We can't read their minds and we infer that they're in pain by observing
their behaviours. I sometimes wonder if people have a sick pet put down
because they can't face the prospect of watching it die a slow death.


I am not an advocate of euthanasia per se. I am an advocate
of treating people with respect, especially if they voice their
wishes.


It's my view that, to euthanise someone 'with respect', their wish that
this
be done is a prerequisite.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Crew lost!
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

I was meaning the option to put down or not put down, rather than
the method of putting down.

The option is always there Wally..... the methods vary. Generally it
would mean in this context that the critter was a goner anyway,
eventually, so the choice was made for it. Go gentle into that good
night now... or rage against the dying of the light later.

Your use of "gentle" paints a picture of the vet's injection that isn't
neccessarily true.


Humane is an intent.... the reality is the outcome remains the same.
If the cat had learned to talk... it could have decided whether it
would rather die in a battle with an enraged pitbull or gently in
it's sleep having it's tummy rubbed and ear scratched.

Those two scenarios are polarised and don't really reflect the spread that
exists in reality.


Some Asian family is starving because they can't afford to buy a cat
or dog for supper and we're burying $1500 cats. Is there no justice?

Perhaps that would be better placed in a thread concerned with politcs and
economics.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Crew lost!
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
Not from what I've seen. It's easy to say pain is a now concept.
It's another to either be in the now for weeks/months on end or
watch someone wither away who is.

My point was that medical science advances. Given that, I would choose pain
over oblivion.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Crew lost!
 

The_navigator© wrote:

My lovely Minxy is gone and I miss her. snip

But back to hard reality, her rapid loss of sight left me with but one
hard decision -I could not bear to see her unable to play or move freely
so I chose a warm quiet end for her -rather that than the cruel unseen
wheels of a car or cold, smothering embrace of the sea.

Sorry to hear it. That *is* a hard decision to make.

Seahag

Crew lost!
 

"Seahag" wrote in message ...

The_navigator© wrote:

My lovely Minxy is gone and I miss her. snip

But back to hard reality, her rapid loss of sight left me with but one
hard decision -I could not bear to see her unable to play or move freely
so I chose a warm quiet end for her -rather that than the cruel unseen
wheels of a car or cold, smothering embrace of the sea.

Sorry to hear it. That *is* a hard decision to make.


And a cruel, self-centered, unnecessary and just plain wrong one.

S.Simon

Crew lost!
 

Simple Simon wrote:

"Seahag" wrote:

The_navigator© wrote:

My lovely Minxy is gone and I miss her. snip

But back to hard reality, her rapid loss of sight left me with but one
hard decision -I could not bear to see her unable to play or move
freely
so I chose a warm quiet end for her -rather that than the cruel unseen
wheels of a car or cold, smothering embrace of the sea.

Sorry to hear it. That *is* a hard decision to make.


And a cruel, self-centered, unnecessary and just plain wrong one.

From his other post I got the impression that the blindness was caused by
some disease. Why make an animal go through all the stages of a fatal
disease?

Seahag

Crew lost!
 

"Seahag" wrote in message ...

Simple Simon wrote:

"Seahag" wrote:

The_navigator© wrote:

My lovely Minxy is gone and I miss her. snip

But back to hard reality, her rapid loss of sight left me with but one
hard decision -I could not bear to see her unable to play or move
freely
so I chose a warm quiet end for her -rather that than the cruel unseen
wheels of a car or cold, smothering embrace of the sea.

Sorry to hear it. That *is* a hard decision to make.


And a cruel, self-centered, unnecessary and just plain wrong one.

From his other post I got the impression that the blindness was caused by
some disease. Why make an animal go through all the stages of a fatal
disease?


It depends upon how fast the disease progresses and how much
the animal is actually suffering. Medical science doesn't necessarily
have all the answers even for people - for animals lot's of the time
they're pretty clueless.

S.Simon

Crew lost!
 

It is clear to me that you have a lot of pent up hate and if you choose
to vent it on me at a time of our sorrow then I feel sad for you. On the
best vetenary advice including experts, we decided to put her to sleep.
If you knew anything about cats you would know that rapid blindness in a
kitten is a sure sign of something very very serious was wrong. But
that's not the point, she had a painless end before the trauma became
worse. We could not bear the thought of her suffering at all. You on the
otherhand would advocate keeping the animal alive because it fulfilled
your needs -regardless of the animal suffering.

Further communication on this topic with you is pointless as you neither
know the facts nor are prepared to listen to the point of view of animal
care experts. An apology from you would be in order but I'm not
expecting you to apologise.

MC

Simple Simon wrote:
Nobody let's me play God but God did give me a brain which
with to think and eyes which to see and ears which with to hear
and other senses. If a couple of my senses happen to become
faulty or even if I lose one of them completely that does not make
me so impaired that I would wish somebody to execute me to
put me out of my misery.

You, on the other hand profess to miss you cat, a cat you killed
because her existence had become something that may have
required a little more work on your part. I maintain that since
you executed your cat you did not love her at all and you
certainly do not miss her. What you really feel is guilt because
you did the wrong thing. You took on the obligation of a pet
and then when the pet did not turn out the way you expected
you simply killed her to get rid of her and any inconvenience
she may have caused.

You are the typical cruel, careless, and asshole pet owner
who seems to think pets only exist to live up to their owner's
expectations. You and your ilk have no conscience and no
business even calling yourself human. You're sick and that's
a fact. You even post a psychotic post describing murder of an
animal for no good reason other than your being inconvenienced
and you expect sympathy. Well, you got sympathy but not
from anybody who has a pet and loves a pet. The sympathy
you got was from other people like yourself who think pets
are for throwing away any time they don't live up to their
warped expectations. You're an asshole plain and simple.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Who lets you play God?

MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Lot's of cats who see perfectly well also get run over by cars.

A concerned owner would not let a blind cat play in the traffic.

Crew lost!
 

Is weight loss a sign stupid?

MC

Simple Simon wrote:

"Seahag" wrote in message ...

Simple Simon wrote:

"Seahag" wrote:

The_navigator© wrote:

My lovely Minxy is gone and I miss her. snip

But back to hard reality, her rapid loss of sight left me with but one
hard decision -I could not bear to see her unable to play or move

freely

so I chose a warm quiet end for her -rather that than the cruel unseen
wheels of a car or cold, smothering embrace of the sea.

Sorry to hear it. That *is* a hard decision to make.


And a cruel, self-centered, unnecessary and just plain wrong one.

From his other post I got the impression that the blindness was caused by
some disease. Why make an animal go through all the stages of a fatal
disease?



It depends upon how fast the disease progresses and how much
the animal is actually suffering. Medical science doesn't necessarily
have all the answers even for people - for animals lot's of the time
they're pretty clueless.

S.Simon

Crew lost!
 

That is pure selfishness and you know it.

MC

Simple Simon wrote:

BULL****! One does not kill any creature one loves.


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

There you go shooting off your mouth. You have no idea what was
happening to her -apart from the fact that she was going blind. FYI this
was a 5 month old kitten -and a major factor in both the disease process
and it's outcome. For an older cat, blindness would not be a major
problem. This decision was not taken lightly and was taken with expert
vetenary advice. Believe me, we loved her lots.

MC

Simple Simon wrote:


What an asshole! Do they kill people who go blind.

A cat has other senses than their eyes. You should have
allowed her to live in the house where she would know
her whereabouts by sound and smell. Instead you
killed her and deprived her of many years of happiness.

Do you know that time spent dreaming is just as real
to a cat as time awake in the real world with eyes open?
Did you not realize that your cat would not be blind in her
dreams?

After all, a blind cat doesn't even realize she is blind. It's
not like that at all for a cat. The only thing she would have
known is it got really dark during her waking hours and
the sun doesn't seem to come out anymore. She'd have coped.
She'd have spent more time sleeping and dreaming. You'd
only have had to change your life just a little to assist her in
living safely.

Instead you wimped out of your obligations and killed
her. You're despicable. Who gave you the right to play
God?

S.Simon - actually loves his cat and would never kill
him simply because he went blind.


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...


My lovely Minxy is gone and I miss her. Her brother has cried for her
for days but now, but even he has had to accept that she will never answer.

On reflection I suppose it might have happened in another way: Her love
of the outside combined with avoidence/refusal to wear a harness, a dark
stormy night, wet decks and rogue seas. With no life jackjet on (the
jacket count would show that she was not wearing one) her survival time
in cold water would not be long. It is likely that a jacket would merely
delay the inevitable. In the dark she would not be easily seen -even

from the air.

But back to hard reality, her rapid loss of sight left me with but one
hard decision -I could not bear to see her unable to play or move freely
so I chose a warm quiet end for her -rather that than the cruel unseen
wheels of a car or cold, smothering embrace of the sea.

MC

Crew lost!
 

People with AIDS lose weight. Should we kill them?

What did your kitten have - feline AIDS, leukemia,
rabies? What? Why don't you say? Let us decide
for ourselves how sick your kitten was.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
Is weight loss a sign stupid?

MC

Simple Simon wrote:

"Seahag" wrote in message ...

Simple Simon wrote:

"Seahag" wrote:

The_navigator© wrote:

My lovely Minxy is gone and I miss her. snip

But back to hard reality, her rapid loss of sight left me with but one
hard decision -I could not bear to see her unable to play or move

freely

so I chose a warm quiet end for her -rather that than the cruel unseen
wheels of a car or cold, smothering embrace of the sea.

Sorry to hear it. That *is* a hard decision to make.


And a cruel, self-centered, unnecessary and just plain wrong one.

From his other post I got the impression that the blindness was caused by
some disease. Why make an animal go through all the stages of a fatal
disease?



It depends upon how fast the disease progresses and how much
the animal is actually suffering. Medical science doesn't necessarily
have all the answers even for people - for animals lot's of the time
they're pretty clueless.

S.Simon

Crew lost!
 

"Wally" wrote in message
| Those two scenarios are polarised and don't really reflect the spread that
| exists in reality.

You're just trying to "psych" me out aren't you Wally..... it ain't gonna
work!

| Perhaps that would be better placed in a thread concerned with politcs and
| economics.

Sailing is all about compromises Wally...... like politics & economics!

CM

Crew lost!
 

I understand. Your choice, but that's an easy one to make
when you're not in pain... for example, I've had experience
with someone who had two choices.. either be conscious
and screaming or unconscious from the meds. With the latter
choice, you can go for a while that way, but then the body
tends to deteriorate pretty quickly. Not much of a choice.
Also, at one point, they couldn't give him more pain meds,
because they were afraid it would kill him.

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Jonathan Ganz wrote:
Not from what I've seen. It's easy to say pain is a now concept.
It's another to either be in the now for weeks/months on end or
watch someone wither away who is.

My point was that medical science advances. Given that, I would choose
pain
over oblivion.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Crew lost!
 

no need to, just wait a while.

"Simple Simon" wrote ...
People with AIDS lose weight. Should we kill them?