Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

S.Simon


felton wrote in message ...
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

Sure, they teach celestial - they just don't require it. There are other skills more
important.

Unless you are planning to do numerous long distance passages, celestial is useless. You
may enjoy learning it, it is an interesting intellectual exercise, but it has little to do
with coastal cruising. Twenty-five years ago I tried to do a sight every day; I haven't
brought a sextant onboard in 8 years.

-j

felton wrote:
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

I think it's worth knowing, but I doubt you'll have much use for
it, except for fun. It's too easy to have multiple GPS backups.
The last extended trip I took, we had 5 handhelds and a fixed
mount GPS. We ended up arguing about the .xxx digits.

felton wrote in message ...
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort... Yes *if*
 

felton wrote:

I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation.

What are your sailing/cruising goals? If you are planning on doing any
extended cruising, then you should know as much about navigation as you
can learn (ditto about electricity, engines, etc etc). Knowledge is power!



I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

This is misleading. Graduating cadets are not expected to navigate ships,
but line officers are. The celestial nav courses were moved to an
appropriate curriculum for post grads, whereas cadets had three or four
other hard courses shoved in.



Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use?

If it keeps you from being lost at sea after your GPS is either fried,
dropped, or soaked, then clestial skills (even if it is only shooting sun
lines) will bring your butt into port alive.



Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Personally, I count all knowledge as a net gain. YMMV.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort... Yes *if*
 

"DSK" wrote in message ...

Personally, I count all knowledge as a net gain. YMMV.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


That's the funniest statement I've read so far this year.
Bwaaahahahhahhahahahhahahahhahahaha!

It's so funny because it comes from one of the least
knowledgeable subscribers .asa has ever had the
misfortune to attract.

S.Simon

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort... Yes *if*
 

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:19:57 -0400, DSK wrote:

felton wrote:

I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation.

What are your sailing/cruising goals? If you are planning on doing any
extended cruising, then you should know as much about navigation as you
can learn (ditto about electricity, engines, etc etc). Knowledge is power!

While I agree with your premise, I am really trying to determine if my
time would be better spent learning something more likely to have some
use to me. I tend to believe that celestial is so far down the list
of skills that *might* be useful, that perhaps my time would be better
invested in an amateur radio license, for example. There must be
other ways to improve myself in some way that may be useful, rather
than just interesting.



I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

This is misleading. Graduating cadets are not expected to navigate ships,
but line officers are. The celestial nav courses were moved to an
appropriate curriculum for post grads, whereas cadets had three or four
other hard courses shoved in.



Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use?

If it keeps you from being lost at sea after your GPS is either fried,
dropped, or soaked, then clestial skills (even if it is only shooting sun
lines) will bring your butt into port alive.

True enough, but it seems likely that I could counter those risks more
easily than learning celestial navigation, but I do concede that it
would be useful in those circumstances.


Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Personally, I count all knowledge as a net gain. YMMV.

I do too, but I haven't signed up for piano lessons, either:)


Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:36:10 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote:

Sure, they teach celestial - they just don't require it. There are other skills more
important.

Unless you are planning to do numerous long distance passages, celestial is useless. You
may enjoy learning it, it is an interesting intellectual exercise, but it has little to do
with coastal cruising. Twenty-five years ago I tried to do a sight every day; I haven't
brought a sextant onboard in 8 years.

-j

Thanks, Jeff. That is what I was thinking. The piloting and coastal
nav courses I have taken have been very useful, but I need to find
something else to work on to try to develop my seamanship. USPS has
been good, but I need to find something worthwhile if I am going to
put in the time and effort.


felton wrote:
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

I tend to agree, but you surprised me. I thought you might be more of
a Larry Pardee minimalist, Cappy:)



On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:22:26 -0400, "Simple Simon"
wrote:

It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

S.Simon


felton wrote in message ...
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

It depends on where you plan to cruise, and/or how much you want to know.
If during the majority of your cruising, you will stay within 1-2 days
of landfall, I wouldn't be too concerned about having the ability,
except as something you would care to know about.
However, if you will be making longer trips, out of sight of land, I
would consider it well worth the effort and ability.
You don't really need to know all the why's and wherefores of what you
are doing, but mainly the steps involved in going through the sight and
various tables, to come up with a solution (or basic inputs, for a
computer).
Although the Naval Academy does not make celestial a required course,
the Maritime Academies do, for those going for a deck license.
In reality, the choice is yours ..... you can carry a whole bunch of
spare batteries and handhelds, or a sextant, tables, and/or a calculator.
GPS advantage - turn it on and it works G
Celestial - needs practice to be good, and some never do become good.

otn

felton wrote:
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort... Yes *if*
 

felton wrote:


While I agree with your premise, I am really trying to determine if my
time would be better spent learning something more likely to have some
use to me.

Well, celestial is a rarely used skill even by passagemakers any more. If
you're going coastal cruising, even less so.


I tend to believe that celestial is so far down the list
of skills that *might* be useful, that perhaps my time would be better
invested in an amateur radio license, for example. There must be
other ways to improve myself in some way that may be useful, rather
than just interesting.

Agreed.


If it keeps you from being lost at sea after your GPS is either fried,
dropped, or soaked, then clestial skills (even if it is only shooting sun
lines) will bring your butt into port alive.

True enough, but it seems likely that I could counter those risks more
easily than learning celestial navigation, but I do concede that it
would be useful in those circumstances.

Here's the rub- how much do you want to be able to save your own bacon when
(not if) your electronic doodads go down the drain? You can always beg a
position from a passing boat, or if you've kept a good DR you can probably find
your way close enough to the harbor mouth to spot the high rise hotels.

I've heard stories of people relying on GPS in really hair raising
circumstances, such as running inlets blind in storms. They lived to tell the
tale, but it's still just another form of Russian Roulette.

BTW from anecdotal evidence, the failure rate of electronic nav aids on
passages is about 10%. Obviously this doesn't include incidents where loss of
ships navigation lead to fatality ;)





Personally, I count all knowledge as a net gain. YMMV.

I do too, but I haven't signed up for piano lessons, either:)

Me neither, but then I do take my guitar when cruising... it gets a lot more
use than my sextant...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

I carry a sextant and tables for HO249 and learned how
to use them about ten years ago. I haven't used them
since and would have to learn all over again.

Like I said, it's pretty useless knowing it. I feel should
I ever have the need to pick up my sextant again that
I could get a fix accurate to five or ten miles with a few
hours review.

S.Simon - a former HO249 student


"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...
It depends on where you plan to cruise, and/or how much you want to know.
If during the majority of your cruising, you will stay within 1-2 days
of landfall, I wouldn't be too concerned about having the ability,
except as something you would care to know about.
However, if you will be making longer trips, out of sight of land, I
would consider it well worth the effort and ability.
You don't really need to know all the why's and wherefores of what you
are doing, but mainly the steps involved in going through the sight and
various tables, to come up with a solution (or basic inputs, for a
computer).
Although the Naval Academy does not make celestial a required course,
the Maritime Academies do, for those going for a deck license.
In reality, the choice is yours ..... you can carry a whole bunch of
spare batteries and handhelds, or a sextant, tables, and/or a calculator.
GPS advantage - turn it on and it works G
Celestial - needs practice to be good, and some never do become good.

otn

felton wrote:
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort... Yes *if*
 

DSK wrote:

Me neither, but then I do take my guitar when cruising... it gets a
lot more use than my sextant...

Accoustic? Do you get any problems with moisture?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

"Simple Simon" wrote in
:

It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

You wouldn't say that if you took sailing seriously.

Bertie

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort... Yes *if*
 

DSK wrote:
Me neither, but then I do take my guitar when cruising... it gets a
lot more use than my sextant...

Wally wrote:
Accoustic? Do you get any problems with moisture?

Yes. The strings rust a lot faster than at home, but it's only a small
problem. I'm sure the salt & humidity don't help the guitar's structure
either. However I don't take expensive guitars cruising. My "main"
cruising guitar (an Alvarez copy of a Gibson J-200 arch-top jumbo) lasted
about 15 years, after which it still was imminently playable and sounded
great. I gave it to a Russian mechanic. It was a minor pain in the neck
because it was so big. I now have a small bodied Canadian folk guitar
which stows much easier and has gone for about 5 years.

The real problem with guitars & cruising is that I keep meeting much
better guitar players than myself, and cannot remember all the music
material I should be learning from them.

DSK

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

There are one thing in this thread that I think have been overlooked:

You should have 2 or 3 TOTALLY INDEPENDENT navigational aids. And when on a
passage - I'm thinking about more than a couple of days out of
sight of land - you would want systems that are not visually, terrestical,
based.

A backup handheld GPS is not "independent" of your normal GPS. Of course it
can be used if your normal GPS has a failure and if driven by AA batteries
it can function if your lead-accumulators have a malfunction, but if the GPS
system breaks down or is closed down, it won't function.

So what are the options ?
Radio-direction-finders.
Loran. (Is it still operational ?)
But if you run out of workable batteries and your electrical system is down,
these will also be out of order. (Water can do many things.)

It would be better to have a system that works without electricity at all.
Consequent dead-reconning, a good compass and a mechanical log could be an
option.
Celestial navigation an other - and with the advantage that it is
independent of what you have previously done or forgot to do.

So for a long distance cruiser I think that knowing how to use celestial
navigation is still a practical ability.

I agree that most sailors will not need this knowledge.

3 things speaks for celestial navigation:

1. It provides a totally independent means of determining a position when
out of sight of land. It is independent of man-made systems and
electricity.
2. It is fairly cheap and simple. A good plastic sextant will do the job.
(Chinese brass is recommended, because it is nicer to work with.)
3. It is fun and interesting, and it adds to your basic comprehension of the
universe and your position in it.

You can probably live without it, but if you sail the high seas it will
increase your safety and probably your appreciation of the world you live
in.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

It's also quite dependent on weather. It's also tedious to do the numbers.
But, I agree, it's worth knowing. Then, when you miss Hawaii, you can
say with certainty... well, I only probably missed it by 60 nm.

"Aniculapeter" wrote in message
k...
There are one thing in this thread that I think have been overlooked:

You should have 2 or 3 TOTALLY INDEPENDENT navigational aids. And when on
a
passage - I'm thinking about more than a couple of days out of
sight of land - you would want systems that are not visually, terrestical,
based.

A backup handheld GPS is not "independent" of your normal GPS. Of course
it
can be used if your normal GPS has a failure and if driven by AA batteries
it can function if your lead-accumulators have a malfunction, but if the
GPS
system breaks down or is closed down, it won't function.

So what are the options ?
Radio-direction-finders.
Loran. (Is it still operational ?)
But if you run out of workable batteries and your electrical system is
down,
these will also be out of order. (Water can do many things.)

It would be better to have a system that works without electricity at all.
Consequent dead-reconning, a good compass and a mechanical log could be an
option.
Celestial navigation an other - and with the advantage that it is
independent of what you have previously done or forgot to do.

So for a long distance cruiser I think that knowing how to use celestial
navigation is still a practical ability.

I agree that most sailors will not need this knowledge.

3 things speaks for celestial navigation:

1. It provides a totally independent means of determining a position when
out of sight of land. It is independent of man-made systems and
electricity.
2. It is fairly cheap and simple. A good plastic sextant will do the job.
(Chinese brass is recommended, because it is nicer to work with.)
3. It is fun and interesting, and it adds to your basic comprehension of
the
universe and your position in it.

You can probably live without it, but if you sail the high seas it will
increase your safety and probably your appreciation of the world you live
in.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

S.Simon

No Sailor can call himself a unlimited master without it.

Have you no sence of self reliability?
No pride in doing something on your own?

Or have you become a dependant of the system?

If the GPS system ever goes down, any person with Celestial navigation
experience will be worth his weight in gold.

Capt. American





felton wrote in message ...
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort... Yes *if*
 

DSK wrote:

Accoustic? Do you get any problems with moisture?

Yes. The strings rust a lot faster than at home, but it's only a small
problem. I'm sure the salt & humidity don't help the guitar's
structure either. However I don't take expensive guitars cruising. My
"main" cruising guitar (an Alvarez copy of a Gibson J-200 arch-top
jumbo) lasted about 15 years, after which it still was imminently
playable and sounded great. ...

That sounds like a pretty good on-board working life.


... I gave it to a Russian mechanic. It was a
minor pain in the neck because it was so big. I now have a small
bodied Canadian folk guitar which stows much easier and has gone for
about 5 years.

I have a 3/4 size classical which is quite handy for messing about on. I
normally play electric or a dreadnought accoustic - the little classical has
a similar neck width, so it's easy to adapt to. It was also very cheap, so I
might end up taking it on the boat sometime.


The real problem with guitars & cruising is that I keep meeting much
better guitar players than myself, and cannot remember all the music
material I should be learning from them.

The trick is to 'remember' the good bits... ;-)


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

"Capt.American" wrote:

"Simple Simon" wrote
It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

No Sailor can call himself a unlimited master without it.

Agreed, with an emphasis on "unlimited". ....

Have you no sence of self reliability?
No pride in doing something on your own?
Or have you become a dependant of the system?

*Everybody* is dependent on "the system" to one degree or another. The
only pride to be had is in being *slightly* less dependent than the dude
next door.


If the GPS system ever goes down, any person with Celestial navigation
experience will be worth his weight in gold.

But it will never go down. If the Yellowstone Caldera pops or the
recently reported astroid hits, wiping out all life on Earth, GPS
satellites will keep chirping away. http://www.trimble.com/gps/

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

Oh, I can do it and I have a Davis plastic sextant and tables
aboard but I still think it's rather a waste of time anymore.

GPS ain't never going down for the count. Too many things
rely on it. The worst that will happen is a satellite or two
may go belly up but there's enough redundancy to work
around them until new ones can be put up.

S.Simon


"Capt.American" wrote in message om...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

S.Simon

No Sailor can call himself a unlimited master without it.

Have you no sence of self reliability?
No pride in doing something on your own?

Or have you become a dependant of the system?

If the GPS system ever goes down, any person with Celestial navigation
experience will be worth his weight in gold.

Capt. American





felton wrote in message ...
I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

"Aniculapeter" wrote in message 2. It is fairly cheap and simple. A good plastic sextant will do the job.
(Chinese brass is recommended, because it is nicer to work with.)

Chinese CRAP is more like it. Japanese Junk leave it alone, There
are several good american sextants, Any White is good, but if you want
to do it right get a captured German Plath and be proud of your
sextant I says!

Capt. American




3. It is fun and interesting, and it adds to your basic comprehension of the
universe and your position in it.

You can probably live without it, but if you sail the high seas it will
increase your safety and probably your appreciation of the world you live
in.

Might increase the appreciation of yourself and your abilities!

Capt. American

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

LOL S.S. can't now and never will be, able to call himself an unlimited
master.

Capt.American wrote:
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...

It's pretty much a waste of time anymore.

S.Simon


No Sailor can call himself a unlimited master without it.

Have you no sence of self reliability?
No pride in doing something on your own?

Or have you become a dependant of the system?

If the GPS system ever goes down, any person with Celestial navigation
experience will be worth his weight in gold.

Capt. American





felton wrote in message ...

I am wrestling with myself as to whether to continue my USPS course
work and sign up for the JN course, which is the first of two courses
dealing with celestial navigation. I have completed all the electives
and through Advanced Piloting, so it is decision time. I have heard
that even the Naval Academy doesn't teach celestial navigating skills
any longer.

Is celestial anything more than an interesting exercise these days or
is it worth the effort to learn for any meaningful use? Ultimately it
comes down to time invested/benefit to learn, like anything else.

At the risk of sounding "lubberly", I just wonder if this is time well
spent these days.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

Ganz wrote:

It's also quite dependent on weather.

Yes.

It's also tedious to do the numbers.

No, not unles you venture into lunar distances or trying to do it by pure
math. Using H.O. 249 or doing noon hights is not that complicated.

But, I agree, it's worth knowing. Then, when you miss Hawaii, you can say
with certainty... well, I only probably missed it by 60 nm.

You have a point. Celestial navigation on a boat does not have the accuracy
that we get used to from GPS, but I think you should be able to do at least
10 times better.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

Capt. American wrote:

Chinese CRAP is more like it. Japanese Junk leave it alone, There
are several good american sextants, Any White is
good, but if you want
to do it right get a captured German Plath and be
proud of your sextant I says!

Yes, the Plath sextants are very nice - I would certainly like to own one -
but they are also very expensive. I think the "Cassens + Plath" brass is my
fauvorit, though I have only held it in a shop.
I think the Chinese gives very good value for money. An other reasonable
option is the smaller Baltic or Carl Zeiss Yacht sextant, also at an
affordable price (and low weight).

Might increase the appreciation of yourself and your abilities!

Yes. And probably even more so if you have captured the german Plath
yourself, but I assume you are not quite that old.

Peter S/Y Anicula

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

"Simple Simon" wrote in
:



Oh, I can do it and I have a Davis plastic sextant and tables
aboard but I still think it's rather a waste of time anymore.

GPS ain't never going down for the count. Too many things
rely on it. The worst that will happen is a satellite or two
may go belly up but there's enough redundancy to work
around them until new ones can be put up.

Snort!

Until you sail into an area that's been suppressed.


Fjuckwit.

Bertie

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

That's true, but it's still working in a book, looking at small numbers
inside a washing machine while drinking a tuna shake.

You're right, you should be able to do better. It's just a problem of
when you can do better and when you can't. If you're unlucky, when
you can't will be when you need it.

"Aniculapeter" wrote in message
k...
Ganz wrote:

It's also quite dependent on weather.

Yes.

It's also tedious to do the numbers.

No, not unles you venture into lunar distances or trying to do it by pure
math. Using H.O. 249 or doing noon hights is not that complicated.

But, I agree, it's worth knowing. Then, when you miss Hawaii, you can
say
with certainty... well, I only probably missed it by 60 nm.

You have a point. Celestial navigation on a boat does not have the
accuracy
that we get used to from GPS, but I think you should be able to do at
least
10 times better.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

Aniculapeter wrote:

.....Yes. And probably even more so if you have captured the german Plath
yourself, but I assume you are not quite that old.

What do you mean old? CA just 'captured' it from a German a few months ago!

DSK

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

"Simple Simon" wrote
GPS ain't never going down for the count. ...

Until you sail into an area that's been suppressed.


Ah ... er ... where's that? N.Y.? Gay Bay? ???

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

DSK wrote in message ...
Aniculapeter wrote:

.....Yes. And probably even more so if you have captured the german Plath
yourself, but I assume you are not quite that old.

What do you mean old? CA just 'captured' it from a German a few months ago!

DSK

Actually I captured it on ebay, But it is a WWII era sextant.

Capt American


25%&^ Halliburton stock that is. 4U2C

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

Vito wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

"Simple Simon" wrote
GPS ain't never going down for the count. ...

Until you sail into an area that's been suppressed.


Ah ... er ... where's that? N.Y.? Gay Bay? ???


Good lord.


You do know that the military dithers the signal wherever and whenever it
likes.

I regularly traverse a large area with no coverage whatsoever.



Bertie

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote:
Vito wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

"Simple Simon" wrote
GPS ain't never going down for the count. ...

Until you sail into an area that's been suppressed.

Ah ... er ... where's that? N.Y.? Gay Bay? ???

You do know that the military dithers the signal wherever and whenever
it
likes.

Of course, it's our GPS and we can do with it what we like.

I regularly traverse a large area with no coverage whatsoever.

Yeah, I told my Uncle Bush to turn them off on you. ;-p

LP

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

ubject: Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
From: "Lady Pilot" xing
Date: 09/07/2003 15:24 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote:
Vito wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

"Simple Simon" wrote
GPS ain't never going down for the count. ...

Until you sail into an area that's been suppressed.

Ah ... er ... where's that? N.Y.? Gay Bay? ???

You do know that the military dithers the signal wherever and whenever
it
likes.

Of course, it's our GPS and we can do with it what we like.

I regularly traverse a large area with no coverage whatsoever.

Yeah, I told my Uncle Bush to turn them off on you. ;-p

LP


Not to dis anyone about GPS, but more and more, I'm seeing articles about the
return/upgrading of Loran, to cover some of the potential problems with GPS
degradation and signal interference ..... EG don't throw those Loran
receivers away.......yet......

Shen

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

If you actually think Loran is ever going to be more
useful than GPS then you're daft. I tossed my Loran
in the junk pile six months ago after getting sick of it
being about a mile off on latitude for the whole of
southern Florida and worse for the Bahamas. It was
OK on the West Coast of Florida, not too good on
the East coast of Florida but got better as I went
up the East coast to Capt Hatteras. It was hopeless
in the North Atlantic out around Bermuda and
along the 65 degrees west long. It's useless around
Haiti and Cuba. Might as well steer by the stars.

I can see the headlines now, "Unlimited Master Grounds
Tugboat Because of Inaccurate GPS Signal".

S.Simon - the one and only Master Mariner here.


"Shen44" wrote in message ...
ubject: Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
From: "Lady Pilot" xing
Date: 09/07/2003 15:24 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote:
Vito wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

"Simple Simon" wrote
GPS ain't never going down for the count. ...

Until you sail into an area that's been suppressed.

Ah ... er ... where's that? N.Y.? Gay Bay? ???

You do know that the military dithers the signal wherever and whenever
it
likes.

Of course, it's our GPS and we can do with it what we like.

I regularly traverse a large area with no coverage whatsoever.

Yeah, I told my Uncle Bush to turn them off on you. ;-p

LP


Not to dis anyone about GPS, but more and more, I'm seeing articles about the
return/upgrading of Loran, to cover some of the potential problems with GPS
degradation and signal interference ..... EG don't throw those Loran
receivers away.......yet......

Shen

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

Subject: Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 09/07/2003 19:01 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

If you actually think Loran is ever going to be more
useful than GPS then you're daft. I tossed my Loran
in the junk pile six months ago after getting sick of it
being about a mile off on latitude for the whole of
southern Florida and worse for the Bahamas.

ROFL try reading for content, Neal, not, typically what you want to
read........besides, what do you care? You never get to sea anyway.

Shen

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 09/07/2003 19:01 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

If you actually think Loran is ever going to be more
useful than GPS then you're daft. I tossed my Loran
in the junk pile six months ago after getting sick of it
being about a mile off on latitude for the whole of
southern Florida and worse for the Bahamas.

ROFL try reading for content, Neal, not, typically what you want to
read........besides, what do you care? You never get to sea anyway.

You're lucky I like you, Capt. Shen. One of these days when
your ship is foundering in a storm at sea maybe you'll be lucky
enough to have me sailing my yacht in the area. I'll be happy
to rescue you from an awful fate. There's room for five or
six of your officers aboard the safety of my positive flotation
yacht but the deck hands will have to take to a life raft and
fend for themselves. We officers should stick together but
those under us don't deserve equal treatment.

S.Simon - a safer boat and captain has rarely sailed the seven seas.

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

"Shen44" wrote:
ubject: Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
From: "Lady Pilot" xing
Date: 09/07/2003 15:24 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote:
Vito wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

"Simple Simon" wrote
GPS ain't never going down for the count. ...

Until you sail into an area that's been suppressed.

Ah ... er ... where's that? N.Y.? Gay Bay? ???

You do know that the military dithers the signal wherever and
whenever
it
likes.

Of course, it's our GPS and we can do with it what we like.

I regularly traverse a large area with no coverage whatsoever.

Yeah, I told my Uncle Bush to turn them off on you. ;-p

LP


Not to dis anyone about GPS, but more and more, I'm seeing articles
about the
return/upgrading of Loran, to cover some of the potential problems
with GPS
degradation and signal interference ..... EG don't throw those Loran
receivers away.......yet......

Shen

Well, Shen, I'm going to confess a little secret here. When I first
started flying in the early '80s, we had a Loran in our Piper Cherokee
Arrow. My flight instructor was a FI in WWII teaching the P-38 etc.,
but I digress...(long story, back to the subject)

Anyway, my friend who is a Scuba and Skydiving pro with a past Marine
secret clearance told me that he went to lunch with the inventor of the
Loran and they were not allowed to give the *exact* location for
security reasons. You should be aware that if I walk out of my house at
anytime, they can read the time on my watch if they *want* to... and
some times they do! hehee

LP

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

"Simple Simon" wrote:

You're lucky I like you, Capt. Shen. One of these days when
your ship is foundering in a storm at sea maybe you'll be lucky
enough to have me sailing my yacht in the area.

How long does it take you to saw off the chain on your mooring?

LP ;-)

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

Well, with a loran, they wouldn't have to worry about
giving away the exact location.

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
.. .

"Shen44" wrote:
ubject: Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
From: "Lady Pilot" xing
Date: 09/07/2003 15:24 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote:
Vito wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

"Simple Simon" wrote
GPS ain't never going down for the count. ...

Until you sail into an area that's been suppressed.

Ah ... er ... where's that? N.Y.? Gay Bay? ???

You do know that the military dithers the signal wherever and
whenever
it
likes.

Of course, it's our GPS and we can do with it what we like.

I regularly traverse a large area with no coverage whatsoever.

Yeah, I told my Uncle Bush to turn them off on you. ;-p

LP


Not to dis anyone about GPS, but more and more, I'm seeing articles
about the
return/upgrading of Loran, to cover some of the potential problems
with GPS
degradation and signal interference ..... EG don't throw those Loran
receivers away.......yet......

Shen

Well, Shen, I'm going to confess a little secret here. When I first
started flying in the early '80s, we had a Loran in our Piper Cherokee
Arrow. My flight instructor was a FI in WWII teaching the P-38 etc.,
but I digress...(long story, back to the subject)

Anyway, my friend who is a Scuba and Skydiving pro with a past Marine
secret clearance told me that he went to lunch with the inventor of the
Loran and they were not allowed to give the *exact* location for
security reasons. You should be aware that if I walk out of my house at
anytime, they can read the time on my watch if they *want* to... and
some times they do! hehee

LP

Is Celestial Nav Worth the Effort?
 

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 03:24:54 GMT, "Lady Pilot"
wrote this crap:

Anyway, my friend who is a Scuba and Skydiving pro with a past Marine
secret clearance told me that he went to lunch with the inventor of the
Loran and they were not allowed to give the *exact* location for
security reasons. You should be aware that if I walk out of my house at
anytime, they can read the time on my watch if they *want* to... and
some times they do! hehee

If you believe this, you're an idiot.





Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!