|
demasting?
Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear
what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
The bolts pulled through the deck? That's what I read. If true, either
the deck is structurally inadequate due to rot, deterioration etc or the backing plates/reinforcement was inadequate from the start. Can't see much of a solution unless people want to second-guess the designers WRT structural adequacy and then where do you stop? A keel stepped mast and chainplates on the hull is a stronger rig, but the first interferes with internal accommodation space and the second reduces pointing ability so - you pays yer money and yer takes the consequences. PDW In article , Jonathan Ganz wrote: Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
That's what I was thinking, but I was afraid to voice it. If that's
the case, that the deck is having problems, it could take a lot longer to get it fixed. Fortunately, we have insurance for just this sort of thing. "Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. The bolts pulled through the deck? That's what I read. If true, either the deck is structurally inadequate due to rot, deterioration etc or the backing plates/reinforcement was inadequate from the start. Can't see much of a solution unless people want to second-guess the designers WRT structural adequacy and then where do you stop? I think if it was done right, it wouldn't be too bad on the cabin/people. Of course, this was a donated boat from years ago. Maybe we can claim the lines fouled the prop and did damage to the A4. :-) A keel stepped mast and chainplates on the hull is a stronger rig, but the first interferes with internal accommodation space and the second reduces pointing ability so - you pays yer money and yer takes the consequences. PDW In article , Jonathan Ganz wrote: Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
I've stated many times on here that the best place on a sailboat for the VHF
antenna is the stern rail. S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster" Trains are a winter sport |
dismasting?
I'm not convinced about that even with this disaster.
I don't believe you can get the range and it's another thing to snag on something. I could perhaps see having a spare that does that, but I don't like the idea of having one there all the time. "SAIL LOCO" wrote in message ... I've stated many times on here that the best place on a sailboat for the VHF antenna is the stern rail. S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster" Trains are a winter sport |
demasting?
I disagree! Your three scenarios all could have been and
should have been avoided with proper inspection and maintenance. One has to wonder when was the last time you or Ganz bothered inspecting the mast, rigging, chainplates, etc.? You may have noticed I've installed folding mast steps on my fine vessel. I can and do inspect spreaders, wire, fittings, etc. on a regular basis because I've made it an easy thing to do. I have to wonder why you and Ganz haven't done the same. Sticking one's head in the sand and not doing anything to inspect and avoid is begging for trouble. A stitch in time saves nine . . . An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure . . You both know all the old sayings. Try to live by them and your sailing will be far safer and more enjoyable. S.Simon - a Captain who's serious about sailing "matt colie" wrote in message ... Jonathan, Summary: You were dismasted by a structural failure. You managed to clear-away without getting anyone hurt or extending damage past the rigging (the hull integrity was not compromised). Congratulations - That is about as good as you can expect. Assuming you have the boat insured, you have already cleared the deductable. In SF Bay, you do not need to try to collect enough to build a jury rig. So, cut it all loose was your best option. Other issues: -Good thing you were carrying a cutter. -Stern rail antenna (I don't have a stern rail [pushpit] at all), cost you a lot of usable range, tend to be damage prone from borders and power boats but not from lightning (toss up). -Consider carrying both a handheld as backup, and a temporary antenna kit if you are going out of the bay. A handheld is 5 watts, the installed unit is 25 and that might be needed at sea. Even with the backup antenna, if you are power down (like from a lightning strike) the handheld could be valuable. We were not so lucky with one, but the injury was handled by some while the rig was handled by the rest. An instant collection of three beer stories. One was a spreader failure and we lost the Al mast from the crosstrees up, another was an older wood spar that the glue failed and so the mast exploded and the last was a fatigued chainplate that let a lower go when we slammed off a wave so the spar buckled and the rig came down on the boat. All the above were thought by all to be well-found boats and only the wood gave any indication of impending failure and that was about thirty seconds (but we couldn't get the sails cleared that fast). This is a drill that has to be considered, but is not easy to practice. As I said above, you did just fine IMHO. Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide'e" S2-7.9 #1 Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor Jonathan Ganz wrote: Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:02:20 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap: Yep... dismasting... my typo. Oh well. Hard to type with one hand? Ave Imperator Bush! Bush Was Right! Four More Years! |
demasting?
Jonathan,
Summary: You were dismasted by a structural failure. You managed to clear-away without getting anyone hurt or extending damage past the rigging (the hull integrity was not compromised). Congratulations - That is about as good as you can expect. Assuming you have the boat insured, you have already cleared the deductable. In SF Bay, you do not need to try to collect enough to build a jury rig. So, cut it all loose was your best option. Other issues: -Good thing you were carrying a cutter. -Stern rail antenna (I don't have a stern rail [pushpit] at all), cost you a lot of usable range, tend to be damage prone from borders and power boats but not from lightning (toss up). -Consider carrying both a handheld as backup, and a temporary antenna kit if you are going out of the bay. A handheld is 5 watts, the installed unit is 25 and that might be needed at sea. Even with the backup antenna, if you are power down (like from a lightning strike) the handheld could be valuable. We were not so lucky with one, but the injury was handled by some while the rig was handled by the rest. An instant collection of three beer stories. One was a spreader failure and we lost the Al mast from the crosstrees up, another was an older wood spar that the glue failed and so the mast exploded and the last was a fatigued chainplate that let a lower go when we slammed off a wave so the spar buckled and the rig came down on the boat. All the above were thought by all to be well-found boats and only the wood gave any indication of impending failure and that was about thirty seconds (but we couldn't get the sails cleared that fast). This is a drill that has to be considered, but is not easy to practice. As I said above, you did just fine IMHO. Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide'e" S2-7.9 #1 Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor Jonathan Ganz wrote: Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
Loco,
The best plce for vhf antenna is still the mast BUT I agree about the stern rail for mounting the spare (which should be mounted) and ready for the switch ove Ole Thomr |
demasting?
You have experience. But, please don't tell us.
"Horvath" wrote in message ... On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:02:20 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz" wrote this crap: Yep... dismasting... my typo. Oh well. Hard to type with one hand? Ave Imperator Bush! Bush Was Right! Four More Years! |
demasting?
Matt, thanks for the insights... FYI, I wasn't on the boat... the
account was written in the first person by the skipper. "matt colie" wrote in message ... Jonathan, Summary: You were dismasted by a structural failure. You managed to clear-away without getting anyone hurt or extending damage past the rigging (the hull integrity was not compromised). Congratulations - That is about as good as you can expect. Assuming you have the boat insured, you have already cleared the deductable. In SF Bay, you do not need to try to collect enough to build a jury rig. So, cut it all loose was your best option. Other issues: -Good thing you were carrying a cutter. -Stern rail antenna (I don't have a stern rail [pushpit] at all), cost you a lot of usable range, tend to be damage prone from borders and power boats but not from lightning (toss up). -Consider carrying both a handheld as backup, and a temporary antenna kit if you are going out of the bay. A handheld is 5 watts, the installed unit is 25 and that might be needed at sea. Even with the backup antenna, if you are power down (like from a lightning strike) the handheld could be valuable. We were not so lucky with one, but the injury was handled by some while the rig was handled by the rest. An instant collection of three beer stories. One was a spreader failure and we lost the Al mast from the crosstrees up, another was an older wood spar that the glue failed and so the mast exploded and the last was a fatigued chainplate that let a lower go when we slammed off a wave so the spar buckled and the rig came down on the boat. All the above were thought by all to be well-found boats and only the wood gave any indication of impending failure and that was about thirty seconds (but we couldn't get the sails cleared that fast). This is a drill that has to be considered, but is not easy to practice. As I said above, you did just fine IMHO. Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide'e" S2-7.9 #1 Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor Jonathan Ganz wrote: Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
The point is Neal that the inspections did take place and nothing
was found. Since I'm relatively new to this boat, I had nothing to do with them. I suspect we'll be investigating who inspected what and when sometime in the near future. "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... I disagree! Your three scenarios all could have been and should have been avoided with proper inspection and maintenance. One has to wonder when was the last time you or Ganz bothered inspecting the mast, rigging, chainplates, etc.? You may have noticed I've installed folding mast steps on my fine vessel. I can and do inspect spreaders, wire, fittings, etc. on a regular basis because I've made it an easy thing to do. I have to wonder why you and Ganz haven't done the same. Sticking one's head in the sand and not doing anything to inspect and avoid is begging for trouble. A stitch in time saves nine . . . An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure . . You both know all the old sayings. Try to live by them and your sailing will be far safer and more enjoyable. S.Simon - a Captain who's serious about sailing "matt colie" wrote in message ... Jonathan, Summary: You were dismasted by a structural failure. You managed to clear-away without getting anyone hurt or extending damage past the rigging (the hull integrity was not compromised). Congratulations - That is about as good as you can expect. Assuming you have the boat insured, you have already cleared the deductable. In SF Bay, you do not need to try to collect enough to build a jury rig. So, cut it all loose was your best option. Other issues: -Good thing you were carrying a cutter. -Stern rail antenna (I don't have a stern rail [pushpit] at all), cost you a lot of usable range, tend to be damage prone from borders and power boats but not from lightning (toss up). -Consider carrying both a handheld as backup, and a temporary antenna kit if you are going out of the bay. A handheld is 5 watts, the installed unit is 25 and that might be needed at sea. Even with the backup antenna, if you are power down (like from a lightning strike) the handheld could be valuable. We were not so lucky with one, but the injury was handled by some while the rig was handled by the rest. An instant collection of three beer stories. One was a spreader failure and we lost the Al mast from the crosstrees up, another was an older wood spar that the glue failed and so the mast exploded and the last was a fatigued chainplate that let a lower go when we slammed off a wave so the spar buckled and the rig came down on the boat. All the above were thought by all to be well-found boats and only the wood gave any indication of impending failure and that was about thirty seconds (but we couldn't get the sails cleared that fast). This is a drill that has to be considered, but is not easy to practice. As I said above, you did just fine IMHO. Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide'e" S2-7.9 #1 Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor Jonathan Ganz wrote: Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
Wholly Crap!!!! Glad nobody was hurt.
NH_/)_ "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
Hey, you! Watch the language - not very ladylike. Oh, but you're a sailor. Never mind. S.Simon "NH_/)_" wrote in message .. . Wholly Crap!!!! Glad nobody was hurt. NH_/)_ "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
Yep... there was luck all round... the woman driving could have
been planted behind the wheel by the mast/boom. "NH_/)_" wrote in message .. . Wholly Crap!!!! Glad nobody was hurt. NH_/)_ "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting? Pray -Oh Master - enlighten us all
Comments interspersed.
"matt colie" wrote in message ... Please do tell us -Oh (self ascribed) Great One A. How can a mortal human determine that tubular spreader that has been adequate to the purpose for eleven seasons is about to buckle in a long column type failure when the conditions had lightened in the last two hours? Are you sure the spreader tube was the cause? I doubt it myself. Not being there I'm just guessing but I'd find it hard to believe there could be enough stress on the spreader to break it if there were not something else that let loose first. B. How (thirty-plus years ago - no portable ultrasonic inspection available) does one assess the soundness of a twenty year old formaldehyde-resorcinol joint that was closely examined as the owner had sanded and varnished the spar three weeks before that day?? One gets rid of wooden junk after that many years. It should have been replaced with an aluminum spar long ago. Wooden spars, like standing rigging don't last forever. To be safe replace wooden spars every ten to fifteen years. C. How does a common citizen determine that there is an invisible crack at the bottom of a finishing mark that has caused fatigue embrittlement to an otherwise nice looking 316 stainless strap? There are dyes available for this purpose. This boat's chainplates were later inspected by a professor of metallurgy in his lab at a near-by well known university. I quote “We didn’t stand a chance.” The professor had been on the helm at the time and was the person injured. You should have checked them more closely before they failed. Maybe if you had removed them and sent them to the same lab prior to the time they failed you could have gotten the news in time to do something about it before the failure. You are not totally to blame because the chainplates were not made thick enough to begin with or they would not have fatigued and failed. That should be a little consolation to you.My chainplates are 3/16" thick and 1-3/4" wide. They are as strong as the day they were installed. You could lift the whole boat with them. S.Simon |
dismasting?
I have a spare mount on the stern as a back-up, wire run inside the
pulpit tubing and to the Nav Station. A very simple disconnect and hook up, But I agree with you. The main antenna should be as high as you can get it. Also, I've had to replace the spare several times due to phyical damage, usally from dingy use. OT |
demasting? Pray -Oh Master - enlighten us all
Please do tell us -Oh (self ascribed) Great One
A. How can a mortal human determine that tubular spreader that has been adequate to the purpose for eleven seasons is about to buckle in a long column type failure when the conditions had lightened in the last two hours? B. How (thirty-plus years ago - no portable ultrasonic inspection available) does one assess the soundness of a twenty year old formaldehyde-resorcinol joint that was closely examined as the owner had sanded and varnished the spar three weeks before that day?? C. How does a common citizen determine that there is an invisible crack at the bottom of a finishing mark that has caused fatigue embrittlement to an otherwise nice looking 316 stainless strap? This boats chainplates were later inspected by a professor of metallurgy in his lab at a near-by well known university. I quote “We didn’t stand a chance.” The professor had been on the helm at the time and was the person injured. My field of expertise is failure analysis. This is a talent that I developed when my father (also an engineer) would look at broken things and we would talk about what caused the initial failure to occur. As he was a relative, I know all about Euler’s writings on the failure of long columns. I don’t have a Ph.D. in anything, just multiple degrees in mechanical and marine engineering. I will not be renewing my USCG engineers licenses as I do not have enough recent time to keep them active. I will keep on sailing as I have for the last half-century plus. Matt Colie A.Sloop “Bonne Ide’e” S2-7.9 #1 Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Congenital Sailor Simple Simon wrote: I disagree! Your three scenarios all could have been and should have been avoided with proper inspection and maintenance. One has to wonder when was the last time you or Ganz bothered inspecting the mast, rigging, chainplates, etc.? You may have noticed I've installed folding mast steps on my fine vessel. I can and do inspect spreaders, wire, fittings, etc. on a regular basis because I've made it an easy thing to do. I have to wonder why you and Ganz haven't done the same. Sticking one's head in the sand and not doing anything to inspect and avoid is begging for trouble. A stitch in time saves nine . . . An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure . . You both know all the old sayings. Try to live by them and your sailing will be far safer and more enjoyable. S.Simon - a Captain who's serious about sailing "matt colie" wrote in message ... Jonathan, Summary: You were dismasted by a structural failure. You managed to clear-away without getting anyone hurt or extending damage past the rigging (the hull integrity was not compromised). Congratulations - That is about as good as you can expect. Assuming you have the boat insured, you have already cleared the deductable. In SF Bay, you do not need to try to collect enough to build a jury rig. So, cut it all loose was your best option. Other issues: -Good thing you were carrying a cutter. -Stern rail antenna (I don't have a stern rail [pushpit] at all), cost you a lot of usable range, tend to be damage prone from borders and power boats but not from lightning (toss up). -Consider carrying both a handheld as backup, and a temporary antenna kit if you are going out of the bay. A handheld is 5 watts, the installed unit is 25 and that might be needed at sea. Even with the backup antenna, if you are power down (like from a lightning strike) the handheld could be valuable. We were not so lucky with one, but the injury was handled by some while the rig was handled by the rest. An instant collection of three beer stories. One was a spreader failure and we lost the Al mast from the crosstrees up, another was an older wood spar that the glue failed and so the mast exploded and the last was a fatigued chainplate that let a lower go when we slammed off a wave so the spar buckled and the rig came down on the boat. All the above were thought by all to be well-found boats and only the wood gave any indication of impending failure and that was about thirty seconds (but we couldn't get the sails cleared that fast). This is a drill that has to be considered, but is not easy to practice. As I said above, you did just fine IMHO. Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide'e" S2-7.9 #1 Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor Jonathan Ganz wrote: Has anyone experienced this? I'd especially be interested to hear what happened, how you reacted, and how you might have prevented it from happening. Also, if someone knows of a way to prevent the following from happening, besides using regular maintenance, inspection, and replacement, I'd like to hear it. Fortunately, no one was hurt, and the boat wasn't damaged other than the obvious. The skipper, S... is an experienced sailor and a former student. The only thing I can really think to criticize him for would be not having a backup handheld VHF. "Skipper: S... (male) Crew: L... (female), N.... (male), R.... (female) Departed Clipper Harbor ~12:00 noon and motored direct to Ayala Cove. Finding no open dock space, we raised sails and hove to behind Pt. Campbell for lunch. ~2:00 we resumed sailing off Bluff Pt. SE past Angel Is., then S towards Alcatraz Is. By 3:00 we were beating SW towards the Gate into a ~15-20 kt. wind, a ~3 kt. flood, and medium chop. We had completed 3 tacks and were proceeding with R... at the tiller, S... in the companionway, and N... and L... in the cabin, when there was a loud cracking sound, followed immediately by a loud bang on the cabin roof. I could see that R... was disturbed and surprised; by the time I turned around to look forward over the cabin top, the mast and both sails were already in the water over the starboard rail. No one was hurt. I asked R... to go below while I looked around. Immediate damage assessment: The mast was snapped off completely at the base, with only the twisted mast step and a broken bit of wire sticking up from the cabin top. The mast was hanging down into the water with all rigging apparently intact: mainsail and storm jib. One of the starboard stanchions was poking through the foot of the mainsail, catching the boom and keeping the rigging from sliding over the side. The base of the mast was sticking up over the cabin top and sawing back and forth as the hull rolled with the chop, but it didn't appear to be going anywhere. We had been on a port tack (heading towards Angel Is.) at the time of the collapse, so the rigging had gone over the starboard side. Acting as a sea anchor in the face of the wind and current, we then swung around with the rigging to the SW and the bow to the SE. This put us across the chop, and the boat was rolling strongly. A 360° look showed no nearby traffic and lots of sea room. Cause: The cause of the collapse was immediately apparent - the stern-most of the three bolts that hold the port stays was sticking up out of the deck with its top split open. All other shrouds and stays were still attached. Response: With no imminent threat, we all caught our breath in the cabin, and I called pan pan pan to the Coast Guard a few times. It took several minutes of fooling around with the radio before we remembered the antenna was mounted on top of the mast. We did not have a back-up handheld radio. Fortunately, within minutes the powerboat Rubicon (looked like a father and a teenage boy) came by to see how we were, and they radioed the Coast Guard for us, then took up station-keeping nearby. With the wind and engine noise we were barely able to communicate. The Coast Guard Auxilliary vessel Silver Charm showed up in about 10-15 minutes. After confirming that there was no medical or other emergency, they circled us and then came in close enough to communicate with us through a megaphone. I requested assistance getting the rigging up on deck with the idea of salvaging it. The Coast Guard indicated it would be too difficult to carry in the chop and to dock, and asked us instead to cut it loose. As the mast was by now hanging almost vertically down off the side, I decided to comply. We had a cable cutter in the toolbox in the cabin that I used to cut the shrouds and stays, working clockwise from the port (downwind) shrouds. In the process I also undid the stop knot in the end of the vang sheet so I could pull it free of the cabin top, and I undid the main sheet and pulled it free of the boom tackle as the rigging disappeared into the deep. Once I was sure that we were clear of all lines, I started the motor and we headed back to Clipper Harbor, escorted by the Silver Charm. We made it back to Richardson Bay without further incident, though with all the bouncing and rolling and wind, we were soaked to the skin by the time we docked. The Silver Charm crew also tied up, and they came over to talk with us and give us the Coast Guard contact information." |
demasting?
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in
: Has anyone experienced this? Try viagra. Bertie |
HEY Tadpole!
Did you know this?;
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ... One gets rid of wooden junk after that many years. It should have been replaced with an aluminum spar long ago. Wooden spars, like standing rigging don't last forever. To be safe replace wooden spars every ten to fifteen years. |
demasting? Pray -Oh Master - enlighten us all
Simple Simon wrote:
and My responses to his Comments interspersed. As required "matt colie" wrote in message ... Please do tell us -Oh (self ascribed) Great One A. How can a mortal human determine that tubular spreader that has been adequate to the purpose for eleven seasons is about to buckle in a long column type failure when the conditions had lightened in the last two hours? Are you sure the spreader tube was the cause? I doubt it myself. Not being there I'm just guessing but I'd find it hard to believe there could be enough stress on the spreader to break it if there were not something else that let loose first. =Most of the rig was still aboard, we were able to recover the upper mast, the genoa, head and back stays from the shallow water as we had tied a cushion to a spinnaker halyard. Nothing was broken or loose. The failed spreader was a picture of classic long column buckling failure. Why it chose then, we could not determine. B. How (thirty-plus years ago - no portable ultrasonic inspection available) does one assess the soundness of a twenty year old formaldehyde-resorcinol joint that was closely examined as the owner had sanded and varnished the spar three weeks before that day?? One gets rid of wooden junk after that many years. It should have been replaced with an aluminum spar long ago. Wooden spars, like standing rigging don't last forever. To be safe replace wooden spars every ten to fifteen years. =There are a whole lot of people that disagree with you here. If this is actually your opinion, I suggest very strongly that you not voice it in the hearing of any of the conservators of classic boats and yachts. There are a goodly number of built-up section masts that are still in service and I know for a fact that the owner’s don’t share your opinion about this. I’m going to have a thirty five year old mast in my shop this winter so the owner can refinish it. Even the early larger glass boat were often delivered with wood spars as extruded section of adequate size were not yet available. C. How does a common citizen determine that there is an invisible crack at the bottom of a finishing mark that has caused fatigue embrittlement to an otherwise nice looking 316 stainless strap? There are dyes available for this purpose. =Dye penetrants are very difficult to evaluate on surfaces that are not smooth. Penetrants will not reliably indicate a discontinuity as small as the instigator probably was (based on the surviving parts) How does a dye detect an embrittlement. This is a change of the materials physical properties and was only detected by microscopic evaluation and microprobing the local hardness of the sectioned and polished parts. This boat's chainplates were later inspected by a professor of metallurgy in his lab at a near-by well known university. I quote “We didn’t stand a chance.” The professor had been on the helm at the time and was the person injured. You should have checked them more closely before they failed. Maybe if you had removed them and sent them to the same lab prior to the time they failed you could have gotten the news in time to do something about it before the failure. =The analysis that finally gave the definitive answer was destructive. (No - eddy current was not conclusive either.) The cost of the analysis (if billed at the labs standard rates) would have been in excess of 1000$us in 1975 dollars, but as it was the helmsman’s lab.... (Hey - the guy got his arm busted - he wanted to know why.) You are not totally to blame because the chainplates were not made thick enough to begin with or they would not have fatigued and failed. That should be a little consolation to you.My chainplates are 3/16" thick and 1-3/4" wide. They are as strong as the day they were installed. You could lift the whole boat with them. S.Simon =Most of the 3 and 400 series stainlesses are relatively fatigue prone. That is why standing rigging has a limited life. =Have you removed said chainplates for proper inspection? =This was a 40 foot boat, and the chainplates were 3/8 thick and about 2" wide. The replacements were made with a polished surface even though this makes them more susceptible to face wear by the turnbuckles. Matt Colie - See prior sig |
demasting?
Ganz, I can't see your post on my newsreader,
so I answer to this post instead, after reading your post on google: This is not meant as criticism, but why did you call the coastguard ? Was that necessary ? A few month back I was on a boat that lost the mast and we decided that we had to cut it loose to avoid damage to the hull. But I wonder if we could have salvaged the rig. Had we cut all but the wires, halyards and sheets except for the aft stay, the boat would have been blown to leeward of the rigging and it might have been safe to start the engine and pull the rigging in to sheltered water where it might have been possible to drop the anchor and get some of the gear onboard. Since the sails were damaged, the mast broken and most or all of the standing rigging would have to be changed anyway, I don't think we could have saved a lot of money, but anyway, I wonder if it would have been possible. And ... an experience like that really makes you remember always to keep a well dimensioned wirecutter onboard. |
demasting?
Umm not sure what you mean by some of this...
oh.. having some newsreader problems... ok. 1st... I wasn't on the boat, but calling the CG was prudent, given that the boat was in a major shipping channel. The CG likes to know these things so that they can 1) alert inbound and outbound traffic 2) come and help if necessary, but mainly stand on in case things get worse.. e.g., mast penetrating the hull. Personally, I'm glad that the skipper cut everything loose, rather than try to retrieve it. The stuff wouldn't have been worth much and it would have been dangerous, given the conditions. "Aniculapeter" wrote in message k... Ganz, I can't see your post on my newsreader, so I answer to this post instead, after reading your post on google: This is not meant as criticism, but why did you call the coastguard ? Was that necessary ? A few month back I was on a boat that lost the mast and we decided that we had to cut it loose to avoid damage to the hull. But I wonder if we could have salvaged the rig. Had we cut all but the wires, halyards and sheets except for the aft stay, the boat would have been blown to leeward of the rigging and it might have been safe to start the engine and pull the rigging in to sheltered water where it might have been possible to drop the anchor and get some of the gear onboard. Since the sails were damaged, the mast broken and most or all of the standing rigging would have to be changed anyway, I don't think we could have saved a lot of money, but anyway, I wonder if it would have been possible. And ... an experience like that really makes you remember always to keep a well dimensioned wirecutter onboard. |
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