Here's to Donal!
 

Tell us how you calculated the effects of tide on your course to steer.
Tell us how the weather forecast affected your plans. Tell us how the
actual weather affected your trip. Did everything go according to plan?

Great questions!
LIS currents were more of a factor than I anticipated, especially from previous
sails. On our return leg, we were slowed below 5 knots which I might have
improved on had I sailed closer to the Con. Coast. I often find reduced current
there.
The weather on friday predicted "severe T-storms" but I knew we could be in a
good area to deal with them (plenty of water) and it would be a worthwhile
experience. I've never been in a T-storm at night. The storms flanked us with
plenty of lightening and thunder, but never came. Not even a drop of rain.
By the time we were approaching Port Jeff, winds had come up to around 20 knots
+ and there's a bit of a confused sea (as our cruising guide warned) outside
the entrance. Following advice, we sailed back and forth making sure we
fathomed the entrance correctly. Suzanne was doing the nav and having a tough
time making sure we had it right.
Everything went according to plan accept that we did not know that so many
boats would be littering the Thimbles. It was so crowded that we left soon
after and grabbed the mooring in nearby Morris Cove. We missed our planned
return time at City Island by two hours.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

Tell us how you calculated the effects of tide on your course to steer.

To be more specific, VMG was reduced, but I did not alter course to seek out a
less effected track. We were having a fine time, on course and going down the
up escalator.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

Tell us how you calculated the effects of tide on your course to steer.
Tell us how the weather forecast affected your plans. Tell us how the
actual weather affected your trip. Did everything go according to
plan?

Great questions!
LIS currents were more of a factor than I anticipated, especially from
previous
sails. On our return leg, we were slowed below 5 knots which I might have
improved on had I sailed closer to the Con. Coast. I often find reduced
current
there.

So, how did you calculate the effects of tide on your course to steer?


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

Here's to Donal!
 

there.

So, how did you calculate the effects of tide on your course to steer?

No calculations were needed. The current was on our nose. I chose to maintain
course with reduced VMG. For most the trip the wind did all it could to aid us
against the current.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

| Everything went according to plan accept that we did not know that so many
| boats would be littering the Thimbles.

Which begs the question.. why did he post this to me earlier on?

"I love it when Mooron gets caught lying!
1) I clearly indicated that I saw few boats, which MIGHT be normal for the
area"


CM

Here's to Donal!
 

Which begs the question.. why did he post this to me earlier on?

"I love it when Mooron gets caught lying!
1) I clearly indicated that I saw few boats, which MIGHT be normal for the
area"

What a liar you are, taking your trolls to new lows. This is really getting sad
for you!
The boats at the thimbles were ANCHORED. My reference to "few boats" was to
SAILING vessels (that means with sails up, Mooron) of which we saw very few.
Probably less than 10-15 actually under sail and it was a clear day. Where was
Billy Jane?

Capt RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

So, how did you calculate the effects of tide on your course to steer?

No calculations were needed. The current was on our nose. I chose to
maintain
course with reduced VMG.

Was this what you expected before setting off? (Tidal direction being 180
deg to your course, I mean.)

Did your logged speed remain fairly constant (aside from variations due to
changes in wind speed)?


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

| What a liar you are, taking your trolls to new lows. This is really
getting sad
| for you!

Now Bob.... Temper Temper! You're allowing your blood pressure to get
elevated and that's not healthy for someone with a sedentary lifestyle.

| The boats at the thimbles were ANCHORED. My reference to "few boats" was
to
| SAILING vessels (that means with sails up, Mooron) of which we saw very
few.
| Probably less than 10-15 actually under sail and it was a clear day. Where
was
| Billy Jane?

You seem to be fixated on Bill and this must explain why you claimed to have
seen few "SAILING" boats... "(that means with sails up, Mooron)"... since
your sails were down as well. Maybe it was that difficult channel they had
to negotiate at the Thimbles?

Thanks for clarifying that "few" means 10 to 15.... I'll keep that in mind
for future reports of your adventures.! ;-)

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

Was this what you expected before setting off? (Tidal direction being 180
deg to your course, I mean.)

Did your logged speed remain fairly constant (aside from variations due to
changes in wind speed)?

Yup. Eldridge showed those currents, but I really expected to make a better
VMG, for no valid reason!
Speed over ground averaged 3.5 to 5.5knots. Knotmeter gave 6.5 to 8 knots. Our
average was probably below 5 knots after the third hour, but picked up again at
the last few hours.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

Thanks for clarifying that "few" means 10 to 15.... I'll keep that in mind
for future reports of your adventures.! ;-)

Coming back into our area on Sunday there were probably 2-300 sailboats out
between Fort Totten and Execution Rocks.

Capt RB

Here's to Donal!
 

Excellent... you determined both set & drift as well?? That's not easy on a
current that appears to average at over 2 knots at times. Was the seafloor
topography fairly constant or did you compensate for the shallows and surges
they would present?

Could you provide the calcs for that... for the enlightenment of those
unfamiliar of course. ;-)

CM

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Was this what you expected before setting off? (Tidal direction being 180
| deg to your course, I mean.)
|
| Did your logged speed remain fairly constant (aside from variations due to
| changes in wind speed)?
|
| Yup. Eldridge showed those currents, but I really expected to make a
better
| VMG, for no valid reason!
| Speed over ground averaged 3.5 to 5.5knots. Knotmeter gave 6.5 to 8 knots.
Our
| average was probably below 5 knots after the third hour, but picked up
again at
| the last few hours.
|
| RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
|
| | What a liar you are, taking your trolls to new lows. This is really
| getting sad
| | for you!
|
| Now Bob.... Temper Temper!
|
| Ahhh, but I proved you a liar! Again!

You keep claiming that... but everytime you do, I show you how I arrived at
the conclusion based on your comments. It's merely my sensible
interpretation of your claims..... why do you scream Liar! .... and become
upset each time I ask for clarification Bob??

A defense that's based on ad hominem attacks lacks merit. It certainly does
nothing to substantiate your claims... but it seems to evoke sympathy...
must be a "victim" thing.

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

Was the seafloor
topography fairly constant or did you compensate for the shallows and surges
they would present?

Wow. Desperate, ay? I did not observe the sea floor topography. Nor does anyone
I've met sailing the area.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Thanks for clarifying that "few" means 10 to 15.... I'll keep that in
mind
| for future reports of your adventures.! ;-)
|
| Coming back into our area on Sunday there were probably 2-300 sailboats
out
| between Fort Totten and Execution Rocks.

So what would your description be of 2 boats to 300 boats.... " a lot
"?... "a bunch"?

Maybe we need a Bobsprit /English translation dictionary. ;-)

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

Excellent... you determined both set & drift as well?? That's not easy on a
current that appears to average at over 2 knots at times.

Observing the track set on the GPS, sailing on a reach, with 1.5-2.5 knots of
current against, we only deviated from our track by about a mile. Once 20 miles
of the return trip were under the keel we could see the Manhattan skyline and
it became a line-of-site sail, though i maintained a specific (245 If I
remember right) SW compass heading anyway.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Was the seafloor
| topography fairly constant or did you compensate for the shallows and
surges
| they would present?
|
| Wow. Desperate, ay? I did not observe the sea floor topography. Nor does
anyone
| I've met sailing the area.

Odd... it should be displayed on your chart and confirmed on your
sounder.... maybe it was too technical a question for you?

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Excellent... you determined both set & drift as well?? That's not easy on
a
| current that appears to average at over 2 knots at times.
|
| Observing the track set on the GPS, sailing on a reach, with 1.5-2.5 knots
of
| current against, we only deviated from our track by about a mile. Once 20
miles
| of the return trip were under the keel we could see the Manhattan skyline
and
| it became a line-of-site sail, though i maintained a specific (245 If I
| remember right) SW compass heading anyway.

So I take it that you only used the GPS on occasion to verify your chart
plot and rightly considered a cross track [drift] error of one mile in 20 as
not worth concern as long as you knew where you would be on arrival to
corrected waypoint?

Excellent Bob... this is what I was hoping to gently persuade you to discuss
in the first place.

I often find myself too lazy to tweak and set trim to compensate for this as
well... especially when I have dinner in the oven and the heel is perfect
for cooking while underway. Good Show!

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

So I take it that you only used the GPS on occasion to verify your chart
plot and rightly considered a cross track [drift] error of one mile in 20 as
not worth concern as long as you knew where you would be on arrival to
corrected waypoint?

Actually, some dumb behavior on my part. I failed to put fresh batteries aboard
for the the GPS and left the new power cable home. I was "spot" using the GPS
by Sunday and I even failed to buy batteries at port jeff!
Yes, the small drift was just not a factor over such a short distance. The most
I know about the Sound's bottom is that taking more "near coastal" tracks can
ease current woes. On the other hand, I was expecting wind direction changes
and I wanted more course options afforded by being in the center of the sound.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Yes, the small drift was just not a factor over such a short distance. The
most
I know about the Sound's bottom is that taking more "near coastal" tracks
can
ease current woes. On the other hand, I was expecting wind direction
changes
and I wanted more course options afforded by being in the center of the
sound.

OK! I was just about to ask about this. A two knot current is quite
significant.
Even allowing for the potential wind changes, I would have assumed that you
would have been much better off trying to stay in close.

How many hours of contrary tide did you have? What was the wind direction
? What was your course?

Is there a chart on-line?


Regards

Donal
--

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

| Actually, some dumb behavior on my part. I failed to put fresh batteries
aboard
| for the the GPS and left the new power cable home. I was "spot" using the
GPS
| by Sunday and I even failed to buy batteries at port jeff!

As a friend once said... Du Du Occurs!

| Yes, the small drift was just not a factor over such a short distance. The
most
| I know about the Sound's bottom is that taking more "near coastal" tracks
can
| ease current woes. On the other hand, I was expecting wind direction
changes
| and I wanted more course options afforded by being in the center of the
sound.

This amplifies the importance of maintaining a hard plot on paper chart. How
did Suzanne derive the cross track?... by hand calc or by spot check
interpolation with the GPS? Both methods are suitable.. it's the end results
that count. You'll find that current surges are typical on raised or
suddenly shallowing seafloor topography where the current is compressed and
moves at a slightly faster rate. The reason to favour the coastal [ read
shallower] areas when combating current that is against you is that the
brunt of the current will favour the deep areas and often you can encounter
a coastal eddy that actually assists your forward motion. I would maybe have
considered shorter coastal tacks than the long ones afforded by sea room if
time was an issue and the extra work involved was not impeding your
enjoyment of the sail. You'll find that options always come at a cost and
the drift afforded by the selection of open area navigation in a current may
adversely affect your ETA.

The importance of navigation and it's application is imperative to becoming
a sailor. How fast you drive a boat is of no consequence when you don't know
where you are going or how you will get there. Keep a log of every trip...
it is a valuable resource for future excursions and illustrates a respect
and proficiency in the art of sail and seamanship.

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

Even allowing for the potential wind changes, I would have assumed that you
would have been much better off trying to stay in close.

How many hours of contrary tide did you have? What was the wind direction
? What was your course?

Is there a chart on-line?

Yes, I probably should have headed in for less current, but we were having a
grand time. Current ran against us from around 1:30 to 4:30. 245-250 SW was our
course, I believe. I have no idea if there's a chart online. I think Maptech
may have some freebee charts of the area.
Even yesterday, sailing out of Manhasset, we faced heavy current in the
afternoon, making our 7 knots into 4.7-5.0 OG.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

| and I wanted more course options afforded by being in the center of the
sound.

This amplifies the importance of maintaining a hard plot on paper chart. How
did Suzanne derive the cross track?... by hand calc or by spot check
interpolation with the GPS?

How does this "amplify" the importance when we were, for all intents and
purposes sailing a short line of sight course? We estimated our losses at
aprox. 90 minutes and were quite close. For a 55 mile run I don't see the need
for more than crude navigation. We know the waters.
Next Spring when we do Great Gull and Block, we'll employ a higher level to
navigate safely.
In one respect, you're correct; the practice is probably worth the effort.
Maybe when we sail to Norwalk (a very short sail) we'll plot a series of
waypoints, calculate current and play by the book for the practice.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
| How does this "amplify" the importance when we were, for all intents and
| purposes sailing a short line of sight course? We estimated our losses at
| aprox. 90 minutes and were quite close. For a 55 mile run I don't see the
need
| for more than crude navigation. We know the waters.

Must be the description of your trip that confused me...

You wrote:
"Observing the track set on the GPS, sailing on a reach, with 1.5-2.5
knots of
current against, we only deviated from our track by about a mile."

So you were on a single tack for this portion of the return trip? If you
completed several tacks ... how would you calculate the combined drift or
set for cross track error.. the changing conditions would not allow a
cumulative average unless you did the calcs on paper to derive it. Hence my
statement regarding a hard plot.

This description led me to believe that prior to the 20 mile leg you did not
have line of sight. My apologies... but it seems to read that way.

"Once 20 miles of the return trip were under the keel we could see the
Manhattan skyline and
it became a line-of-site sail, though i maintained a specific (245 If I
remember right) SW compass heading anyway."

| Next Spring when we do Great Gull and Block, we'll employ a higher level
to
| navigate safely.
| In one respect, you're correct; the practice is probably worth the effort.
| Maybe when we sail to Norwalk (a very short sail) we'll plot a series of
| waypoints, calculate current and play by the book for the practice.

I look forward to your report and the discussion it will surely generate.

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

This description led me to believe that prior to the 20 mile leg you did not
have line of sight. My apologies... but it seems to read that way.

We did not, nor did we face the worst of the current in the first few hours,
making our course fairly "true" especially in respect to the distance involved.
By maintaining our compass heading derived from the GPS, we barely deviated at
all.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

| waypoints, calculate current and play by the book for the practice.

I look forward to your report and the discussion it will surely generate.

Indeed!

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| This description led me to believe that prior to the 20 mile leg you did
not
| have line of sight. My apologies... but it seems to read that way.
|
| We did not, nor did we face the worst of the current in the first few
hours,
| making our course fairly "true" especially in respect to the distance
involved.
| By maintaining our compass heading derived from the GPS, we barely
deviated at
| all.

Ah.. I see how I came to be confused since you wrote... "How does this
"amplify" the importance when we were, for all intents andpurposes sailing a
short line of sight course? "
Cross track.. or drift and set are easier to estimate on a single tack and
more readily confirmed by bearing bearing fix or in the case of limited
bearing targets.. running fixes.

How did the Compass vs. GPS bearings compare? Did the discrepancy amount to
the Variation and did you get a chance to confirm if the Deviation error
made much of a difference?

Isn't this stuff interesting.... ;-)

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

How many hours of contrary current,etc other bull ****

Who the hell cares? Is each time a pleasure sail is made is it really
necessary to log every fart, every tack made, every change in wind
speed, every tide change?

I don't do that kind of log keeping. I'm wondering just how many of this
group really makes a log entry and completion of every afternoons sail
around the Bay? I DON'T. I don't really keep a running log of a simple
overnite in my immediate sailing area. I enjoy sailing! I hate paper
work! Keeping a running log is dumb paper work. If you like doing it,
then by all means do it. I think of all the millions of useless logs
recorded on private recreational boats is something that is over done.

I'm not a good log keeper. My log has more entries this season with less
sailing than I can ever remember. I logged the date of the new bottom,
the new main and the changes made because of it. Even at that I'm not
sure I haven't over done it? My filed copies of the paid bills are more
necessary than the log.

You pencil pushers enjoy your log duties. Don't expect to see a history
of each sail I've taken. You won't find it.

Right or wrong, that's the thrufffff and:

"I'll Drink to That!"

Ole Thom
P/S I'm heading for the Boat right now. Have a lot of catching up to do;
Wind is calm (below 5 knots)
Weather Forcast Rain
Distination (?)
Point of Departure Squilcum Harbor, Bellingham, Washington
Estimated time of Voyage (?)
Time of departure About a half an hour from now (1000 o:clock)
Completion When I'm ready
Crew list "Jazz" my dog

So there

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

| I have the GPS 76, but I returned the S version with built in compass
because
| it had bugs.
| I haven't really do much in the way of comparing the unit with the
globemaster,
| but I will do this next week if i get a chance.

Excellent.... it's a great exercise and I try to make certain my crew gets a
chance to partake whenever the situation offers. On auto helm in a dead calm
you can actually derive a deviation table that is fairly accurate.


| Yep...it's interesting when you ask good questions!

What questions did I ask initially that you would consider bad? I just
appreciate that you've overcome your defensive posture and agreed to discuss
your trip particulars on the group. See how informative and pleasant it can
be.

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
How many hours of contrary current,etc other bull ****

Who the hell cares? Is each time a pleasure sail is made is it really
necessary to log every fart, every tack made, every change in wind
speed, every tide change?

16 years ago, I set out on my first sea voyage. I was in a power boat that
was capable of doing 39 kts - according to the sales brochure.

The trip was from Chichester to Bembridge, and the distance was 6 miles
(IIRC).

I spent hours, if not days, planning the trip. I worked out the tidal
stream, magnetic variation and our course to steer. I tried to plot a
position every 10 minutes(very difficult on a power boat that is bouncing
along at 20 kts). Visibility was poor (1/2 mile). I cannot describe the
pride that I felt when the Bembridge Entrance marker appeared less than 100
yards off our port bow.

For the return trip, I didn't bother to do a passage plan. I simply
reversed the course. We ended up 4 miles west of Chichester entrance.
That was on a 6 mile trip!! Variation accounted for an 8 degree error and
the tide did the rest.

Bob claims that he has just done his first 50 mile trip. I would suggest
that there is nothing in his posts to suggest that he has just navigated 50
miles for the first time ever.


My first cross channel trip (75 miles) involved days of planning. Now I do
it in 15 minutes max.

You have many years of experience, and therefore feel confident at sea.
Bobsprit has never undertaken a long trip before, and therefore would do a
lot of planning, if he were the skipper.


Let's face it. If Bob actually did do the trip, then he wasn't the
skipper.






I don't do that kind of log keeping. I'm wondering just how many of this
group really makes a log entry and completion of every afternoons sail
around the Bay? I DON'T. I don't really keep a running log of a simple
overnite in my immediate sailing area. I enjoy sailing! I hate paper
work! Keeping a running log is dumb paper work.

Your comments are absolutely correct. I don't keep a log when I am sailing
in the Solent. However, Bob was describing a big adventure to a
destination that was well outside his normal cruising grounds.


Regards


Donal
--

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| What questions did I ask initially that you would consider bad? I just
| appreciate that you've overcome your defensive posture and agreed to
discuss
| your trip particulars on the group.
|
| It was actually Donal who asked questions directly and politely.

That's just misleading Bob.... here is an example of some discourse from the
thread:

CM - H-m-m-m-m 11 hours with an estimated 1.5 hour dinner break for a
total of
9 and a half hours of sailing. That would be what.. about 40 miles for your
boat?

RB - "This one's too silly to answer. Trying to figure a distance
travelled based on
the time?"

CM - that's a silly response.. with a hard beat and current you could
have
covered a linear distance of 20 miles with a distance over ground of 40
miles.

RB - "If you don't know the conditions, currents and so on, why guess at
all? You
silly"

I didn't realize you were so sensitive Bob!

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

Let's face it. If Bob actually did do the trip, then he wasn't the
skipper.

You're right! Suzanne handled most of the Nav stuff. I had the GPS in my pocket
and steered like a bus driver. She pointed right and left and I followed.
Seems to work!

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

That's not good -1 mile off with GPS aids is really poor. Your DR needs
work.

Cheers MC

Bobsprit wrote:

Observing the track set on the GPS, sailing on a reach, with 1.5-2.5 knots of
current against, we only deviated from our track by about a mile.

Here's to Donal!
 

A cross track error of 1 mile can lead to unexpected rocks -unless you
know from the chart all; is well. Of course you are also sailing further...

Cheers MC

Capt. Mooron wrote:

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Excellent... you determined both set & drift as well?? That's not easy on
a
| current that appears to average at over 2 knots at times.
|
| Observing the track set on the GPS, sailing on a reach, with 1.5-2.5 knots
of
| current against, we only deviated from our track by about a mile. Once 20
miles
| of the return trip were under the keel we could see the Manhattan skyline
and
| it became a line-of-site sail, though i maintained a specific (245 If I
| remember right) SW compass heading anyway.

So I take it that you only used the GPS on occasion to verify your chart
plot and rightly considered a cross track [drift] error of one mile in 20 as
not worth concern as long as you knew where you would be on arrival to
corrected waypoint?

Excellent Bob... this is what I was hoping to gently persuade you to discuss
in the first place.

I often find myself too lazy to tweak and set trim to compensate for this as
well... especially when I have dinner in the oven and the heel is perfect
for cooking while underway. Good Show!

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

I hera what you say but if ever there is an accident you will wish you
had a log.

Cheers MC

Thom Stewart wrote:

How many hours of contrary current,etc other bull ****


Who the hell cares? Is each time a pleasure sail is made is it really
necessary to log every fart, every tack made, every change in wind
speed, every tide change?

I don't do that kind of log keeping. I'm wondering just how many of this
group really makes a log entry and completion of every afternoons sail
around the Bay? I DON'T. I don't really keep a running log of a simple
overnite in my immediate sailing area. I enjoy sailing! I hate paper
work! Keeping a running log is dumb paper work. If you like doing it,
then by all means do it. I think of all the millions of useless logs
recorded on private recreational boats is something that is over done.

I'm not a good log keeper. My log has more entries this season with less
sailing than I can ever remember. I logged the date of the new bottom,
the new main and the changes made because of it. Even at that I'm not
sure I haven't over done it? My filed copies of the paid bills are more
necessary than the log.

You pencil pushers enjoy your log duties. Don't expect to see a history
of each sail I've taken. You won't find it.

Right or wrong, that's the thrufffff and:

"I'll Drink to That!"

Ole Thom
P/S I'm heading for the Boat right now. Have a lot of catching up to do;
Wind is calm (below 5 knots)
Weather Forcast Rain
Distination (?)
Point of Departure Squilcum Harbor, Bellingham, Washington
Estimated time of Voyage (?)
Time of departure About a half an hour from now (1000 o:clock)
Completion When I'm ready
Crew list "Jazz" my dog

So there

Here's to Donal!
 

Exactly -and a legal responsibility of the master...

Cheers MC

Capt. Mooron wrote:

Keep a log of every trip...
it is a valuable resource for future excursions and illustrates a respect
and proficiency in the art of sail and seamanship.

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

| I'm VERY sensitive.

I suggest you keep that in check..... or drastically alter your online
persona.

To make matters worse, few people believe that I saw a
| severed (and rotting) human head floating during the trip. I'm 75% sure of
what
| I saw.

It wouldn't surprise me at all.... but consider that the density of a human
head and the lack of soft tissue it's not ideally suited to be the first
part of a cadaver to rise after deterioration and bloating. Granted the
sinus and cranial cavity could have had sufficient trapped air. It's not out
of the realm of possibility and I haven't seen any post that indicated
ridicule on this group.

What did Suzanne have to say regarding this... she would have a better
understanding of anatomical properties. Failing that make an inquiry with
the local Coroner's Office. They should be able to clarify if such a thing
was in the realm of probability and it may even be of interest to them.

CM

Here's to Donal!
 

What did Suzanne have to say regarding this... she would have a better
understanding of anatomical properties. Failing that make an inquiry with
the local Coroner's Office. They should be able to clarify if such a thing
was in the realm of probability and it may even be of interest to them.

The top of the skull was just below the surface most of the time. I could make
out the tattered neck tissue below. The face was mostly bloated, but appeared
femail. Suzanne is not skittish about such things and was ****ed that we could
not recover it.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

| I'm VERY sensitive.

I suggest you keep that in check..... or drastically alter your online
persona.

Nah, more fun the way it is!

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

A cross track error of 1 mile can lead to unexpected rocks -unless you
know from the chart all; is well. Of course you are also sailing further..

NOT where we were sailing with miles of good water on either side of us. The
deviation did not go unoticed, nor did it effect our TOA.

RB

Here's to Donal!
 

"The Captains Master" wrote in message

| I guess you had to be there!

Yes you great big baby.... that's why I'm asking! ;-)

CM