In-Mast Furling
 

For a cruising boat 35-40 feet, how much performance is lost with an in-mast
mainsail furling system. What are the specific losses.

Thanks for any info.

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

Then
there is the loss of money. Finally there is the
loss in dignity.

Same as marriage, right???

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

Depends upon whom one marries. Loco and Stevie,
for example, have wives who are a financial liability
as well as a blow their dignity while your beautiful
woman not only looks sexy and fine but makes
good money.

Then there is that fool Mike Fulmoron who married
Petunia Pig. Bwaahahhahahhahahahhaha! Bring home
the bacon has a whole new meaning.


"Bobsprit" wrote in message ...
Then
there is the loss of money. Finally there is the
loss in dignity.

Same as marriage, right???

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

Oh nonsense; you get a ton more performance from a rolling mainsail becuase
YOU WILL ALWAYS USE IT; how often do you see people on short evening cruises
with only headsails out b/c their main is too much of a bother to hoist?

Do it.

Mike

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Just like wind-up headsails, the major loss is in
reliability. Also, there is a loss in safety. Then
there is the loss of money. Finally there is the
loss in dignity.

Don't even THINK about wind-ups.

Keep it simple, keep it seamanlike.


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
For a cruising boat 35-40 feet, how much performance is lost with an
in-mast
mainsail furling system. What are the specific losses.

Thanks for any info.

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, "Donal" wrote:

. . . an in-mast furling main sail . . .

. . . which, comparatively speaking, might be used more of the time
than one that requires more work to hoist and take down, . . .

. . . will usually be considerably smaller
than a standard sail, due to the lack of roach.

As a general matter, this is often true (but compare some
vertically-battened moderen in-mast furling mains).

But even when correct, it disregards the reality (especially for newer
computer-assisted designs) that modern hull shapes and (newer) boat
design/fabrication also frequently favors comparatively early reefing
but at no loss of sailing performance.

In other words, at many windspeeds and related weather conditions,
the,
"Is 'performance' always 'better'?"
question is often almost wholly (and, in some cases, entirely) moot.

Relatedly, HOWEVER, I most certainly am NOT arguing that This compared
with That sail is always "better" (much less "best") for all persons
on all boats ("cruising" or otherwise) in all conditions (or vice
versa). As in all else in sailing, its an "it depends ..." and "there
always are trade-offs" kind of Thing (re. which, f'rinstance, the
original posting in this thread does not specify whether the boat in
question will have a shoal or finned-compared-with-bulbed or mid-size
or deep keel, among other performance-affecting variables).

In-Mast Furling
 

There's extra weight aloft and greater windage, due to the
furling mechanism. They're still relatively unreliable, esp.
as compaired to jib furlers, you could have lots of trouble
furling when not directly into the wind. They have the potential
of binding if the sail isn't perfectly straight as it goes in. It's your
primary means of propulsion (well, for most people). Why mess
with it? Also, on a 35-40 foot boat? Do it manually. It's not that
hard.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
For a cruising boat 35-40 feet, how much performance is lost with an
in-mast
mainsail furling system. What are the specific losses.

Thanks for any info.

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, "Donal" wrote:

. . . an in-mast furling main sail . . .

. . . which, comparatively speaking, might be used more of the time
than one that requires more work to hoist and take down, . . .

If health reasons made getting a sail up and down difficult, then I might
consider a furling main. As it is, I'm not sure that it takes any longer
to hoist. I use lazyjacks to drop my main into the sailbag. It only takes
about 3 mins to flake it out and zip up the bag. So I agree that taking the
sail down will take a bit longer. However, I find it difficult to accept
that anyone would forego the use of the main because it was too difficult to
hoist on any boat under 40'.




. . . will usually be considerably smaller
than a standard sail, due to the lack of roach.

As a general matter, this is often true (but compare some
vertically-battened moderen in-mast furling mains).

I haven't seen these. They sound like they might suffer from jamming.


But even when correct, it disregards the reality (especially for newer
computer-assisted designs) that modern hull shapes and (newer) boat
design/fabrication also frequently favors comparatively early reefing
but at no loss of sailing performance.

In other words, at many windspeeds and related weather conditions,
the,
"Is 'performance' always 'better'?"
question is often almost wholly (and, in some cases, entirely) moot.


The guy that I chartered the boat with a furling main from, said that the
furling system meant that he could always reef exactly by the amount that
he wanted, and therefore he could keep up more sail in heavy weather. I
found that the sail shape was dreadful, and that the boat wouldn't perform
well in any conditions. BTW, the boat was a Barvaria 44.



Regards


Donal
--

In-Mast Furling
 

"Donal" wrote in
:


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, "Donal" wrote:

. . . an in-mast furling main sail . . .

. . . which, comparatively speaking, might be used more of the time
than one that requires more work to hoist and take down, . . .

If health reasons made getting a sail up and down difficult, then I
might consider a furling main. As it is, I'm not sure that it takes
any longer to hoist. I use lazyjacks to drop my main into the sailbag.
It only takes about 3 mins to flake it out and zip up the bag. So I
agree that taking the sail down will take a bit longer. However, I
find it difficult to accept that anyone would forego the use of the
main because it was too difficult to hoist on any boat under 40'.




. . . will usually be considerably smaller
than a standard sail, due to the lack of roach.

As a general matter, this is often true (but compare some
vertically-battened moderen in-mast furling mains).

I haven't seen these. They sound like they might suffer from
jamming.


But even when correct, it disregards the reality (especially for
newer computer-assisted designs) that modern hull shapes and (newer)
boat design/fabrication also frequently favors comparatively early
reefing but at no loss of sailing performance.

In other words, at many windspeeds and related weather conditions,
the,
"Is 'performance' always 'better'?"
question is often almost wholly (and, in some cases, entirely) moot.


The guy that I chartered the boat with a furling main from, said that
the furling system meant that he could always reef exactly by the
amount that he wanted, and therefore he could keep up more sail in
heavy weather. I found that the sail shape was dreadful, and that the
boat wouldn't perform well in any conditions. BTW, the boat was a
Barvaria 44.


Run away Donie!

there's a good boy.


Good thng the others forced you into retiring, eh fjuckwit?

Ooops!
Better not answer, hothead, the others will spank you and you're already on
the ****list for egging me on. the one or two people who already don't
think you're a complete **** might change their minds if you try and stand
up to the bunyip.

Best hide.

I think one of my other k00ks might have some room under his bed he can
share with you.


Guess this means I win, fjuckwit!

Bwawhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahw hahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahh
whahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhah whhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhha
hhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhah hwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwha
hwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhh ahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahha
hwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwh ahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwh
ahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahh ahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwh
ahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahw hahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahw
hhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahw hahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahh
whahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhah whhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhha
hhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhah hwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwha
hwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhh ahhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahh!


Bertie

In-Mast Furling
 

(Bobsprit) wrote:
For a cruising boat 35-40 feet, how much performance is lost with an in-mast
mainsail furling system. What are the specific losses.


Frank and Ronnie Maier wrote:
Well, hell; since no one is replying seriously

Well, look who's asking.


Citing specific loss requires a specific situation. Generally
speaking, you'll lose *some* efficiency; this is why some designers
have tried wrap-around sails in the past. Ya want a number? I'll say
that you'll be a full knot slower upwind than the same boat without
in-mast furling.

I think that comparing PHRF numbers of boats of the same type with in-mast furling
shows a big loss, like over a minute per mile... and this includes downwind
performance, which will be least affected.



Frank (I've come to accept roller furling headsails but still can't
stomach in-mast furling)

I can stomach it, I just don't see any reason why anybody who isn't planning on
spending a great percentage of their sailing time in very high wind areas would
want it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In-Mast Furling
 

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:35:18 -0700, a team of surgeons from
alt.sailing.asa removed the following benign growth from Jonathan
Ganz:

snip-some-tedious-bad-advice

Do it manually. It's not that hard.

You should know.


--
PJR :-)
mhm34x8

In-Mast Furling
 

"Steve Thomas" wrote in message
.. .
Most of what you say makes sense, but I don't see why you said that a mast
furled main would have limited roach.
If it was boom furled, that would be another story.


Please bear in mind my limited experience when reading my response.

AFAIK, most mast furling systems do not have any roach because the battens
would foul. Most sails with a roach need battens to support the leach.


I would have thought that it was easier to have battens on a boom furling
system.


The Barvaria that I sailed had no roach at all. I believe that the boat was
designed with a standard mainsail in mind. The result was that the mainsail
was too small - either because the mast, or boom, was too short.



Regards


Donal
--

In-Mast Furling
 

"Frank and Ronnie Maier" wrote in message
m...
(Bobsprit) wrote:
For a cruising boat 35-40 feet, how much performance is lost with an
in-mast
mainsail furling system. What are the specific losses.

Well, hell; since no one is replying seriously,

Jeeeze. I did my best!

Don't be so contemptuous.



Regards


Donal
--

In-Mast Furling
 

DSK wrote:
(Bobsprit) wrote:
For a cruising boat 35-40 feet, how much performance is lost with an in-mast
mainsail furling system. What are the specific losses.

Frank and Ronnie Maier wrote:
Well, hell; since no one is replying seriously

Well, look who's asking.

Yeah, I know; but given the recent x-posting infestation, he seems
(almost) acceptable. Shudder! I can't believe I really said that.

In-Mast Furling
 

Nice to hear from an expert. Pity that the owners of 'Northern Light'
don't agree. They know a lot more than you do and have sailed a lot
further.

PDW

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:22:09 -0400, "Simple Simon"
wrote:

Just like wind-up headsails, the major loss is in
reliability. Also, there is a loss in safety. Then
there is the loss of money. Finally there is the
loss in dignity.

Don't even THINK about wind-ups.

Keep it simple, keep it seamanlike.




"Bobsprit" wrote in message ...
For a cruising boat 35-40 feet, how much performance is lost with an in-mast
mainsail furling system. What are the specific losses.

Thanks for any info.

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

Thanks for all of the replies. The person who's thinking of a in mast system is
elderly and has a bad hand. He was actually looking at an electric furling
system retrofitted to a Cal 35. I've printed the non-troll answers for him.

Thanks again,

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:33:45 -0400, "Simple Simon"
wrote this crap:

Depends upon whom one marries. Loco and Stevie,
for example, have wives who are a financial liability
as well as a blow their dignity while your beautiful
woman not only looks sexy and fine but makes
good money.

I am immensely lucky that both of my fiances, and my girlfriend make
lots of money.




Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!

In-Mast Furling
 

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:30:37 -0400, "Steve Thomas"
wrote this crap:

Most of what you say makes sense, but I don't see why you said that a mast
furled main would have limited roach.

You can't have battens on a roller furling main.




Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!

In-Mast Furling
 

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:10:18 +1000, The Captains Master wrote:

On 13 Aug 2003 01:01:32 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote:

Thanks for all of the replies. The person who's thinking of a in mast system is
elderly and has a bad hand. He was actually looking at an electric furling
system retrofitted to a Cal 35. I've printed the non-troll answers for him.

Thanks again,

RB

Well if you had stated that in the first instance you might have more
sensible replies!

Smacks of another troll Bubbles.

Yeah, what I thought.

Get the book 'Time on Ice' be Rolf Bjelke and Deb Shapiro. They
converted to in-mast roller furling and did a lot of heavy weather
sailing including Palmer Peninsula. The book was published in 1991
(IIRC). They're in Hobart at the moment, still have the Selden in-mast
furling gear. I've had a good look at their yacht - a Moitessier
'Joshua' hull. Nice cruising boat.

Personally I wouldn't do it - more things to go wrong and a real bitch
to fix. Also expensive. However, Deb Shapiro isn't very big/strong
(her admission) and the roller furling means she can handle the sails
without calling the off-watch person to help.

Peter Wiley

In-Mast Furling
 

"Donal" wrote:
"Frank and Ronnie Maier" wrote:
(Bobsprit) wrote:
For a cruising boat 35-40 feet, how much performance is lost with an
in-mast
mainsail furling system. What are the specific losses.

Well, hell; since no one is replying seriously,

Jeeeze. I did my best!
Don't be so contemptuous.

Sorry.

My personal time delay between posting and reading is to blame. When I
composed my post I had only seen a couple of the usual "You suck!"
"No! You suck!" posts. After I posted I saw that there had then been
several realistic answers.

Next time I'll just follow my usual practice of lurking while the
regulars sort it out.

Frank

In-Mast Furling
 

On 13 Aug 2003 01:20:20 GMT, Horvath wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:30:37 -0400, "Steve Thomas"
wrote this crap:


You can't have battens on a roller furling main.



..
I have a Hunter 426 DS on my right with the FurlBoom with full battens
and a Hunter 356 on my left with a Seldon in mast furler and the Doyle
Swing Batten Main

In-Mast Furling
 

In boom furling: the battens are parallel to the boom and roll up with
the sail.

In mast furling: http://www.doylesails.com/sails-swing-batten.htm



On 13 Aug 2003 04:31:26 GMT, Horvath wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 03:34:41 GMT, Marc wrote
this crap:

On 13 Aug 2003 01:20:20 GMT, Horvath wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:30:37 -0400, "Steve Thomas"
wrote this crap:


You can't have battens on a roller furling main.



.
I have a Hunter 426 DS on my right with the FurlBoom with full battens
and a Hunter 356 on my left with a Seldon in mast furler and the Doyle
Swing Batten Main

Now how do you roll up the main, with the battens still in?




Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!

In-Mast Furling
 

So, you're a pimp. Ok. I get it.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:33:45 -0400, "Simple Simon"
wrote this crap:

Depends upon whom one marries. Loco and Stevie,
for example, have wives who are a financial liability
as well as a blow their dignity while your beautiful
woman not only looks sexy and fine but makes
good money.

I am immensely lucky that both of my fiances, and my girlfriend make
lots of money.




Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!

In-Mast Furling
 

Yes you can. I had them on my previous boat. It was a 16 foot
trimaran. It had vertical battens, and the main furled on the mast.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:30:37 -0400, "Steve Thomas"
wrote this crap:

Most of what you say makes sense, but I don't see why you said that a
mast
furled main would have limited roach.

You can't have battens on a roller furling main.




Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!

In-Mast Furling
 

Well if you had stated that in the first instance you might have more
sensible replies!

Wrong again, Ozzy. Got all the info I required by leaving out the details. I
play this group like a 2 dollar kazoo.

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

"Frank and Ronnie Maier" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote:
"Frank and Ronnie Maier" wrote:
(Bobsprit) wrote:
For a cruising boat 35-40 feet, how much performance is lost with an
in-mast
mainsail furling system. What are the specific losses.

Well, hell; since no one is replying seriously,

Jeeeze. I did my best!
Don't be so contemptuous.

Sorry.

My personal time delay between posting and reading is to blame. When I
composed my post I had only seen a couple of the usual "You suck!"
"No! You suck!" posts. After I posted I saw that there had then been
several realistic answers.

Next time I'll just follow my usual practice of lurking while the
regulars sort it out.

No, no, Nooooo.

You mustn't take me too seriously! My comment was in jest.



Regards


Donal
--

In-Mast Furling
 

And exactly how are your troll any different from Bertie and friends?
--
----
Steve
S/V Pony Express

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...


Not what I was asking about, Ozzy. Sought general opinions, not race
penalties
or windage factors. Toot Toot, Ozzy's wrong again!

Bwahahahahahaha! And I'm nuts!

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:56:07 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

So, you're a pimp. Ok. I get it.

You jealous?

But I'm not. I don't take any of their money.


"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:33:45 -0400, "Simple Simon"
wrote this crap:

Depends upon whom one marries. Loco and Stevie,
for example, have wives who are a financial liability
as well as a blow their dignity while your beautiful
woman not only looks sexy and fine but makes
good money.

I am immensely lucky that both of my fiances, and my girlfriend make
lots of money.




Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!




Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!

In-Mast Furling
 

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:57:06 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

Yes you can. I had them on my previous boat. It was a 16 foot
trimaran. It had vertical battens, and the main furled on the mast.

Vertical battens? Got any pics?

It sounds gay.




Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Years!

In-Mast Furling
 

It sounds gay.

You would know!

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message ...
Wrong again, Ozzy. Got all the info I required by leaving out the details. I
play this group like a 2 dollar bone-a-fone.

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

RB,

In Mast furling. Lost; sail shape. No battens. Increased size of mast
and expense tricky systems system of Sail handling.
Gained; A lot of good, easy sailing. Easy storage of the sail. Great,
easy reefing

RB, I don't feel that they are that much improvement over a fully
battened main in Lazy Jacks.

My opinion, for what ever it is worth.

Ole Thom

In-Mast Furling
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
My opinion, for what ever it is worth.


A plug nickle?

In-Mast Furling
 

RB, I don't feel that they are that much improvement over a fully
battened main in Lazy Jacks.

My opinion, for what ever it is worth.

That's what I'm relaying to my friend. He can always add a powered winch for
sail raising. Thanks.

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

Hi Neal,

Looking at your posting, I see the effect of the full moon on them.

Watch your Med Dosage. You may have to adjust some.

Just got my new North Main yesterday. 7oz Dacron with full battens (5 of
them)
Don't know if I'll get it on today? My Son is going into minor surgery
today, so I think I'll forgo it for another day. I'll get a picture of
it so you can get a chance to give me your (honest) evaluation. The Moon
will be on its wane by then. You'll feel better then, as long as you
don't compare with that Main you have. To get something to compare your
Main to it would have to be well into the last century that it was made.

Ole Thom

In-Mast Furling
 

RB,

Oz is correct. You didn't really get any of the necessary information on
a modifaction. There are systems that can be added using the existing
mast and rigging, with their own + & -, But screw you now, Big Mouth.
You'll now have to be content with your usual half-ass knowledge.

OT

In-Mast Furling
 

Before the end of the year I'll have a new main and working
jib probably custom made at Calvert Sails loft in Islamorada,
Florida Keys.

You guys shamed me into it. Yes, do make a pic available of
your new North. My old mainsail is a North and it has given
way too many years of good service - more than even I expected.

That sail probably has 12 or 13 thousand miles on it.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Hi Neal,

Looking at your posting, I see the effect of the full moon on them.

Watch your Med Dosage. You may have to adjust some.

Just got my new North Main yesterday. 7oz Dacron with full battens (5 of
them)
Don't know if I'll get it on today? My Son is going into minor surgery
today, so I think I'll forgo it for another day. I'll get a picture of
it so you can get a chance to give me your (honest) evaluation. The Moon
will be on its wane by then. You'll feel better then, as long as you
don't compare with that Main you have. To get something to compare your
Main to it would have to be well into the last century that it was made.

Ole Thom

In-Mast Furling
 

Oz is correct. You didn't really get any of the necessary information on
a modifaction.

I didn't ask for any. I only asked why gains and losses he'd have. I never even
mentioned the boat involved until later.
I got exactly what I required.
Thanks.

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

You guys shamed me into it.

If we could only shame you into a US Yachts 27 or Mac26X...anything better than
that Coronado 27!

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

That sail probably has 12 or 13 thousand miles on it.


You must've shipped it all over the world!!

Bwahahahaha!

RB

In-Mast Furling
 

There are several solutions like Batt-cars and the Strong track that allow the main to go
up and down very easily. Add a Dutchman system, or a StackPak (too bad you can't do both)
and you have something that's very easy and not more complicated than a normal system.

Bobsprit wrote:
RB, I don't feel that they are that much improvement over a fully
battened main in Lazy Jacks.

My opinion, for what ever it is worth.

That's what I'm relaying to my friend. He can always add a powered
winch for sail raising. Thanks.

RB