flukey winds
 

I have a Freedom 36 and yes , it came with a windlass. The reason I
continue with the existing primary system is one of utility and
compromise. The F 36 has no deck accessible anchor locker and it is
difficult to stuff a rope down a chain pipe. The windlass is as much
a convenience for stowing the rode as lifting it. I am considering
using the Fortress as my primary anchor, changing out the gypsy for a
smaller high tensile chain, and since most of my anchoring is in 25'
or less, shortening the chain to 50' and adding a kellet to the
inventory.



On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:44:09 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote:

The 100 feet of heavy chain makes it hard to tell if you're set. Even with the engine,
you won't be able to feel it hook in some situations. I always power-set, otherwise its
hard to tell if you're really set.

A Fortress, on the otherhand, will grab so quickly (when it grabs) that the rode will get
jerked out of your hand. But on a hard bottom, I wouldn't be confident that it would
reset on a shift.

This is one of the issues with larger boats - Neal's smaller boat can be anchor under sail
with fair confidence; on a larger boat power-setting is the only way to be sure.

BTW, I'm sure you already know this, but your 100 feet of 3/8 weighs in at 150 pounds.
And the 3/4 nylon isn't that light either, and won't supply much shock relief. What size
is your boat and do you have a windlass?


"Marc" wrote in message
.. .
I , too, am rethinking my anchor system. The boat came equipped with a
33 lb. Bruce, 100 lf. of 3/8 chain,, 150 lf of 3/4 nylon and a
windlass as the primary system. I added a Fortress FX 23 , 30' of
chain and 200 lf of 5/8 rode as a second. I had occaision to sail into
an anchorage this trip and anchor under wind alone. Light air, so I
had to pay out the chain hand over hand to lay it down straught. Upon
retrieval the next morning, the chain was full of mud and the anchor
was clean. It had never set. This is not to say that had a wind piped
up, the Bruce woud not have set, but it was disconcerting. , The
Fortress would have been the better choice given the circumsstances.


On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:17:34 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote:

I've admitted up front that for a given design, a heavier anchor will hold better. And
that for those will to pay the price and accept the consequences, heavy gear may be
appropriate.

However, you said "there is NO substitute for weight." I'm claiming that for a given
situation, there is an easier way to achieve the desired holding power. As someone
that
got rid of a 35# CQR in favor of 22# Delta, halved the chain, then replaced the
Danforth
lunch hook with a Fortress, I stand by my words. Before I did this anchoring was
rather
stressful, and I was not always happy with the results. With the lighter gear I anchor
faster, easier, with more safety and confidence.

When I had to chose for the new boat I went with the same gear, though upsized one
level.
Careful consideration went into the sizing of the anchor and amount of chain, etc.
Lest
you think I'm advocating using undersized gear, both my on deck anchors (even the lunch
hook) are one size larger than recommended for my boat. And down below I carry two
extra
anchors, and three extra rodes.

The issue is not whether a large Danforth holds better than large Danforth, its whether
heavy gear, as represented by a big CQR or Bruce and all chain, is better than a
lighter
Delta or Spade with a chain/nylon rode. Or (though we haven't discussed it much)
whether
one large anchor is better than two smaller ones in nastier situations.

Like I said, I made my choice and stand by it. And now, when a bozo anchors next to
me,
I don't mad, I just move.

-jeff
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright

P.S. Neal, you're dead wrong on the rules - Sailboats ARE required to slow down when
hearing an unidentified fog signal close on, forward of the beam. That is the meaning
of
"every vessel" in Rule 19e. Unless you're claiming your boat is not a vessel, you are
bound by that.



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Be a man and admit your response was more driven by
your desire to 'one-upmanship' me than it was an attempt
to present the facts.

You have allowed your defeats at my hand in the past to
cloud your judgment in the present. Will you never
forget and forgive the sound thrashing I subjected you,
Shen44 and otnmbrd fellow to in the Rules debate;
particularly with regards to the stand-on vessel in fog?


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
You would have a point if I had said that. There are a variety of factors
influencing
the
choice of gear. Some factors are in favor of heavier gear, other factors favor
lighter
gear. If you only consider some of the factors, you arrive at faulty conclusions.
If
you
measure the holding power of two anchors of identical design but different sizes,
the
larger one will almost always hold better. This does not mean that the larger
anchor
is
always desirable.

If "heavier is better" causes you to use gear that is hard to deploy, hard to set,
and
hard to recover, you haven't increased your anchoring security. If "heavier is
better"
leads you using all chain and the shock loads pull the anchor out, you made the
wrong
choice. If "heavier is better" led you to ignore recent advances like the Delta,
Spade
and Fortress then you're missing out.

And I'm not claiming that lighter is always better, only that it is a different,
equally
viable approach to anchoring. Neal stated "there is NO substitute for weight" and
then
listed several situations favored by the "smarted anchoring" approach.


"Wally" wrote in message
...
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message

And your point is what?

Eh? "Lighter is better, provided a whole bunch of other stuff is different
as well" is hardly a strong argument against the bare notion that "heavier
is better".


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

flukey winds
 

I , too, am rethinking my anchor system. The boat came equipped with a
33 lb. Bruce, 100 lf. of 3/8 chain,, 150 lf of 3/4 nylon and a
windlass as the primary system. I added a Fortress FX 23 , 30' of
chain and 200 lf of 5/8 rode as a second. I had occaision to sail into
an anchorage this trip and anchor under wind alone. Light air, so I
had to pay out the chain hand over hand to lay it down straught. Upon
retrieval the next morning, the chain was full of mud and the anchor
was clean. It had never set. This is not to say that had a wind piped
up, the Bruce woud not have set, but it was disconcerting. , The
Fortress would have been the better choice given the circumsstances.

Maybe, but it sounds like you didn't set it right. Let out too much rode
before being sure it was set.

flukey winds
 

Having a windlass helps a lot, it was a high priority on my new boat. However, consider
what a pain it would be to haul you anchor by hand, if it failed. Worse, what if you lost
the electrical and couldn't start the engine either?

My choice of 50 feet of chain (5/16) was based on the maximum depth I expected to anchor
in - I wanted to be able to hook a link on the gypsy. As for kellets - a small mushroom
dinghy anchor will serve as a kellet, a hammerlock anchor, and a dinghy anchor.

I've always been skeptical of Danforth & Fortresses as a primary. I've had several
occurrences of the anchor releasing on a shift, and then failing to reset. The FX23 might
be heavy enough to fight through a clump of mud, but it can still be fouled by a piece of
weed, or a beer can. For soft mud bottoms this might not be that much of a problem. I
trust my Fortress as a second anchor, but I keep my eye on it when I use it as a lunch
hook.

"Marc" wrote in message
...
I have a Freedom 36 and yes , it came with a windlass. The reason I
continue with the existing primary system is one of utility and
compromise. The F 36 has no deck accessible anchor locker and it is
difficult to stuff a rope down a chain pipe. The windlass is as much
a convenience for stowing the rode as lifting it. I am considering
using the Fortress as my primary anchor, changing out the gypsy for a
smaller high tensile chain, and since most of my anchoring is in 25'
or less, shortening the chain to 50' and adding a kellet to the
inventory.



On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:44:09 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote:

The 100 feet of heavy chain makes it hard to tell if you're set. Even with the engine,
you won't be able to feel it hook in some situations. I always power-set, otherwise
its
hard to tell if you're really set.

A Fortress, on the otherhand, will grab so quickly (when it grabs) that the rode will
get
jerked out of your hand. But on a hard bottom, I wouldn't be confident that it would
reset on a shift.

This is one of the issues with larger boats - Neal's smaller boat can be anchor under
sail
with fair confidence; on a larger boat power-setting is the only way to be sure.

BTW, I'm sure you already know this, but your 100 feet of 3/8 weighs in at 150 pounds.
And the 3/4 nylon isn't that light either, and won't supply much shock relief. What
size
is your boat and do you have a windlass?


"Marc" wrote in message
.. .
I , too, am rethinking my anchor system. The boat came equipped with a
33 lb. Bruce, 100 lf. of 3/8 chain,, 150 lf of 3/4 nylon and a
windlass as the primary system. I added a Fortress FX 23 , 30' of
chain and 200 lf of 5/8 rode as a second. I had occaision to sail into
an anchorage this trip and anchor under wind alone. Light air, so I
had to pay out the chain hand over hand to lay it down straught. Upon
retrieval the next morning, the chain was full of mud and the anchor
was clean. It had never set. This is not to say that had a wind piped
up, the Bruce woud not have set, but it was disconcerting. , The
Fortress would have been the better choice given the circumsstances.


On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:17:34 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote:

I've admitted up front that for a given design, a heavier anchor will hold better.
And
that for those will to pay the price and accept the consequences, heavy gear may be
appropriate.

However, you said "there is NO substitute for weight." I'm claiming that for a
given
situation, there is an easier way to achieve the desired holding power. As someone
that
got rid of a 35# CQR in favor of 22# Delta, halved the chain, then replaced the
Danforth
lunch hook with a Fortress, I stand by my words. Before I did this anchoring was
rather
stressful, and I was not always happy with the results. With the lighter gear I
anchor
faster, easier, with more safety and confidence.

When I had to chose for the new boat I went with the same gear, though upsized one
level.
Careful consideration went into the sizing of the anchor and amount of chain, etc.
Lest
you think I'm advocating using undersized gear, both my on deck anchors (even the
lunch
hook) are one size larger than recommended for my boat. And down below I carry two
extra
anchors, and three extra rodes.

The issue is not whether a large Danforth holds better than large Danforth, its
whether
heavy gear, as represented by a big CQR or Bruce and all chain, is better than a
lighter
Delta or Spade with a chain/nylon rode. Or (though we haven't discussed it much)
whether
one large anchor is better than two smaller ones in nastier situations.

Like I said, I made my choice and stand by it. And now, when a bozo anchors next
to
me,
I don't mad, I just move.

-jeff
"Constant Vigilance!" - Frances W. Wright

P.S. Neal, you're dead wrong on the rules - Sailboats ARE required to slow down
when
hearing an unidentified fog signal close on, forward of the beam. That is the
meaning
of
"every vessel" in Rule 19e. Unless you're claiming your boat is not a vessel, you
are
bound by that.



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Be a man and admit your response was more driven by
your desire to 'one-upmanship' me than it was an attempt
to present the facts.

You have allowed your defeats at my hand in the past to
cloud your judgment in the present. Will you never
forget and forgive the sound thrashing I subjected you,
Shen44 and otnmbrd fellow to in the Rules debate;
particularly with regards to the stand-on vessel in fog?


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
You would have a point if I had said that. There are a variety of factors
influencing
the
choice of gear. Some factors are in favor of heavier gear, other factors favor
lighter
gear. If you only consider some of the factors, you arrive at faulty
conclusions.
If
you
measure the holding power of two anchors of identical design but different
sizes,
the
larger one will almost always hold better. This does not mean that the larger
anchor
is
always desirable.

If "heavier is better" causes you to use gear that is hard to deploy, hard to
set,
and
hard to recover, you haven't increased your anchoring security. If "heavier is
better"
leads you using all chain and the shock loads pull the anchor out, you made the
wrong
choice. If "heavier is better" led you to ignore recent advances like the
Delta,
Spade
and Fortress then you're missing out.

And I'm not claiming that lighter is always better, only that it is a different,
equally
viable approach to anchoring. Neal stated "there is NO substitute for weight"
and
then
listed several situations favored by the "smarted anchoring" approach.


"Wally" wrote in message
...
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message

And your point is what?

Eh? "Lighter is better, provided a whole bunch of other stuff is different
as well" is hardly a strong argument against the bare notion that "heavier
is better".


--
Wally
I demand rigidly-defined areas of uncertainty!
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk

flukey winds
 

How do you make sure its set if you deploy under sail in light air? In fact, the dead
weight of the anchor and half the chain would be enough hold the boat in a 5 knot breeze -
its not clear the anchor would ever feel the load at all.

I have seen people throw the anchor out going a full speed down wind - it looks nice when
it works!

"SkitchNYC" wrote in message
...
I , too, am rethinking my anchor system. The boat came equipped with a
33 lb. Bruce, 100 lf. of 3/8 chain,, 150 lf of 3/4 nylon and a
windlass as the primary system. I added a Fortress FX 23 , 30' of
chain and 200 lf of 5/8 rode as a second. I had occaision to sail into
an anchorage this trip and anchor under wind alone. Light air, so I
had to pay out the chain hand over hand to lay it down straught. Upon
retrieval the next morning, the chain was full of mud and the anchor
was clean. It had never set. This is not to say that had a wind piped
up, the Bruce woud not have set, but it was disconcerting. , The
Fortress would have been the better choice given the circumsstances.

Maybe, but it sounds like you didn't set it right. Let out too much rode
before being sure it was set.