Sorry, that was a Freudian slip typo. I meant to
type 30 foot cruising boats.


"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message ...
,but I still clean it with a little scrub brush
every two weeks just to retain that fine, competitive edge that
allows me to handily beat J/24s and stay even with most 50-
foot cruising boats.


LOL........... Stop!
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

I think I need to start racing. I could humiliate these clods.
These racers are really stupid to think given wind enough to
reach hull speed on a downwind run that they can go faster
than hull speed by jybing downwind. Sorry, unless your
boat planes off you will take longer to the leeward mark
fooling around with lay lines, polars and any other crap
that you want to come up with than if you just popped a
chute and ran straight to the mark.

Consider this. It only takes ten or twelve knots to drive
my fine vessel to hull speed downwind using a cruising
spinnaker poled out. If these racing wimps only race in
lighter winds than that then they are sissies and bums not
worthy of the name sailor.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...

"Thomas Stewart" wrote in message

| Boy, what a downwind leg it would be between you and CM!!! Oh Yeah!!!!

Thom it wouldn't even be a contest... I would be so far ahead of Neal he
would be checking to make sure he had unhitched his mooring painters. In a
DDW leg racing in light to moderate winds I'll broad reach and gybe.... in
really gusty winds or wind speeds in excess of 30 knots it's just plain
safer, quicker and easier to wing on wing and avoid not only the stress on
the rig from a gybe but the loss in momentum and speed from the action
itself.

Nonetheless... I so rarely race anymore that it's a non issue. I'll take the
hassle free goose winged set any day.

CM

My very first post disqualified light air as a consideration. I have
always maintained that the conditions were air sufficient to drive
the vessel to hull speed. Why else would I have mentioned cats
and tris excluded? It's because tris and cats don't have a constraint
of a hull speed like displacement boats.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
A very subtle backpedal, Neal. Everyone that posted stipulated that gybing downwind is
especially appropriate in light air. Now you're claiming that your argument only holds
when you can get to hull speed on a dead run. The Cat 36 polars I posted showed that in
10 knots of wind the optimum run angle is gybing through 64 degrees; in 12 knots its still
36 degrees. It doesn't take a planing boat - the strategy holds for most boats.

Its typical of you to boast that you attain hull speed in 10 knots of wind, but the record
shows otherwise. From your own trip log of your Gulf Stream crossings last year:

--------------------------------
Outbound:
The crossing was slower than I had anticipated because the winds seemed to
lighten as the day progressed. They were having a hard time reaching ten knots.
We did, however, manage to make a sixty dregree compass heading most of the day.
The current in the Gulf Stream was strong and moved us north at a faster pace
than anticipated. Ended up motorsailing thru the afternoon because the winds
became too light to make the rhum line against the flow of the Stream and we did
not wish to end up north of West End. The ocean was about like Hawk Channel -
not much wave action at all ...

Inbound:
Too bad the winds were so light. They started out at around ten knots from the
east which made it almost a run to West Palm Beach. Ended up having to start the
motor at sunrise after only making good about twelve miles ...
---------------------------------

It looks like rather than going a hull speed, you were motoring!

BTW, I can sympathize - below 10 knots of wind I sometimes succumb to the temptation of
starting the engine. Of course, in 10 knots I can do your hull speed.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
I think I need to start racing. I could humiliate these clods.
These racers are really stupid to think given wind enough to
reach hull speed on a downwind run that they can go faster
than hull speed by jybing downwind. Sorry, unless your
boat planes off you will take longer to the leeward mark
fooling around with lay lines, polars and any other crap
that you want to come up with than if you just popped a
chute and ran straight to the mark.

Consider this. It only takes ten or twelve knots to drive
my fine vessel to hull speed downwind using a cruising
spinnaker poled out. If these racing wimps only race in
lighter winds than that then they are sissies and bums not
worthy of the name sailor.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"Thomas Stewart" wrote in message

| Boy, what a downwind leg it would be between you and CM!!! Oh Yeah!!!!

Thom it wouldn't even be a contest... I would be so far ahead of Neal he
would be checking to make sure he had unhitched his mooring painters. In a
DDW leg racing in light to moderate winds I'll broad reach and gybe.... in
really gusty winds or wind speeds in excess of 30 knots it's just plain
safer, quicker and easier to wing on wing and avoid not only the stress on
the rig from a gybe but the loss in momentum and speed from the action
itself.

Nonetheless... I so rarely race anymore that it's a non issue. I'll take the
hassle free goose winged set any day.

CM

Sounds like you don't know what the f*ck you are doing.

"CANDChelp" wrote in message
...
75 miles off and return in 3 days? That's 50 miles a day?
Wow, now that's fast!

This post proves that Ganzy knows nothing about sailing.
Think about where I am, Ganzy. Now imagine that I leave Saturday at 8:00
am and
I need to return Sunday night.
Think about Hells Gate...can't exactly turn it when I want, now can't I.
Now
imagine that winds are low and I don't want to motor the whole trip.
75 miles offshort and back assuming a direct VMG would be 150 NM plus
waiting
for the tides and possible uncooperative wind to make the gate both ways.
Hmmmm. Sounds like I did my homework.

RB

You're digging the hole deeper, Neal. Here's your first post:

That is incorrect information for any displacement monohull where
it is always faster to run straight downwind. It only applies to
multi-hulls and planning hulls that can, using a strong wind, move
faster than their theoretical hull speed.

You don't mention light air - in fact you specifically say jibing downwind works in strong
wind.




"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
My very first post disqualified light air as a consideration. I have
always maintained that the conditions were air sufficient to drive
the vessel to hull speed. Why else would I have mentioned cats
and tris excluded? It's because tris and cats don't have a constraint
of a hull speed like displacement boats.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
A very subtle backpedal, Neal. Everyone that posted stipulated that gybing downwind
is
especially appropriate in light air. Now you're claiming that your argument only
holds
when you can get to hull speed on a dead run. The Cat 36 polars I posted showed that
in
10 knots of wind the optimum run angle is gybing through 64 degrees; in 12 knots its
still
36 degrees. It doesn't take a planing boat - the strategy holds for most boats.

Its typical of you to boast that you attain hull speed in 10 knots of wind, but the
record
shows otherwise. From your own trip log of your Gulf Stream crossings last year:

--------------------------------
Outbound:
The crossing was slower than I had anticipated because the winds seemed to
lighten as the day progressed. They were having a hard time reaching ten knots.
We did, however, manage to make a sixty dregree compass heading most of the day.
The current in the Gulf Stream was strong and moved us north at a faster pace
than anticipated. Ended up motorsailing thru the afternoon because the winds
became too light to make the rhum line against the flow of the Stream and we did
not wish to end up north of West End. The ocean was about like Hawk Channel -
not much wave action at all ...

Inbound:
Too bad the winds were so light. They started out at around ten knots from the
east which made it almost a run to West Palm Beach. Ended up having to start the
motor at sunrise after only making good about twelve miles ...
---------------------------------

It looks like rather than going a hull speed, you were motoring!

BTW, I can sympathize - below 10 knots of wind I sometimes succumb to the temptation
of
starting the engine. Of course, in 10 knots I can do your hull speed.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
I think I need to start racing. I could humiliate these clods.
These racers are really stupid to think given wind enough to
reach hull speed on a downwind run that they can go faster
than hull speed by jybing downwind. Sorry, unless your
boat planes off you will take longer to the leeward mark
fooling around with lay lines, polars and any other crap
that you want to come up with than if you just popped a
chute and ran straight to the mark.

Consider this. It only takes ten or twelve knots to drive
my fine vessel to hull speed downwind using a cruising
spinnaker poled out. If these racing wimps only race in
lighter winds than that then they are sissies and bums not
worthy of the name sailor.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"Thomas Stewart" wrote in message

| Boy, what a downwind leg it would be between you and CM!!! Oh Yeah!!!!

Thom it wouldn't even be a contest... I would be so far ahead of Neal he
would be checking to make sure he had unhitched his mooring painters. In a
DDW leg racing in light to moderate winds I'll broad reach and gybe.... in
really gusty winds or wind speeds in excess of 30 knots it's just plain
safer, quicker and easier to wing on wing and avoid not only the stress on
the rig from a gybe but the loss in momentum and speed from the action
itself.

Nonetheless... I so rarely race anymore that it's a non issue. I'll take the
hassle free goose winged set any day.

CM

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
You're digging the hole deeper, Neal. Here's your first post:

That is incorrect information for any displacement monohull where
it is always faster to run straight downwind. It only applies to
multi-hulls and planning hulls that can, using a strong wind, move
faster than their theoretical hull speed.

You don't mention light air - in fact you specifically say jibing downwind works in strong
wind.


Exactly, I'm smart enough to realize that if hull speed can be
exceeded by planning then all bets are off. It stands to reason
that light air does not provide the power to do that on any
point of sail by any water sailing vessel. Therefore, light air
as a consideration is not included in the scenario, just as I said
all along. It appears that your jumping to conclusions is
the cause of the misunderstanding.

My Friend Neal,

Please don't try racing. At times you are enough embarrassement to the
ASA without proving it as a fact. Besides you can't race with those
potted plants sitting on your self. stay on your mooring.

If you know anything about anything, the rating on the "Banana Boat"
would be so slow you'd have to race in the cruising class. That my
friend in a class that doesn't allow Flying Sails. For your information
your Assy. Spinn is a flying sail. Not allowed. However, that blown out
Main of yours might work as a good downwind Chute :^)

Now, about "AM CUPPERS" going downwind. Neal, If you've ever watch the
races, you've must have seen them turn the weather mark where one vessel
will choose a Gybe SET and the other will choose a BEAR AWAY SET. Even
with SPINNAKERS they are working on wind ANGLES for their downwind runs.
They know which way the wind is blowing. They send crew up the mast to
assure this. Why Oh Seaman Supreme, does this happen?

Also, If you have an ASSY you must also be aware that is an off wind
reaching sail. Even poled out it is more efficient cracked off dead
downwind, aren't you?

Ole Thom

Neal,

I picked wind speeds at or below hull speeds. This is the conditions
where Gybing downwind works. You have to be able to gain about a 30%
increase in speed with less than a 30% change of course from the wind.
If you can't do this you are forced to join the parade to the Gybe
marker.

Ole Thom

I'm not jumping to conclusions - you said:

"incorrect information for any displacement monohull where it is always faster to run
straight downwind."

That's pretty unequivocal. Looks like maybe you should sit back and take some lessons
from your betters. Even booby knows more about sailing than you do!

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
news

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
You're digging the hole deeper, Neal. Here's your first post:

That is incorrect information for any displacement monohull where
it is always faster to run straight downwind. It only applies to
multi-hulls and planning hulls that can, using a strong wind, move
faster than their theoretical hull speed.

You don't mention light air - in fact you specifically say jibing downwind works in
strong
wind.


Exactly, I'm smart enough to realize that if hull speed can be
exceeded by planning then all bets are off. It stands to reason
that light air does not provide the power to do that on any
point of sail by any water sailing vessel. Therefore, light air
as a consideration is not included in the scenario, just as I said
all along. It appears that your jumping to conclusions is
the cause of the misunderstanding.

that is incorrect information for any displacement monohull where
it is always faster to run straight down wind

That my friend is what you said. You said ALWAYS FASTER TO RUN STRAIGHT
DOWNWIND;

You said ALWAYS, you said ALWAYS. Yes you did. You said it, you said it.

You said America Cup racer sail straight downwind, only making slight
adjustment. You said it. Yes you did. You said it

You said ANY DISPLACEMENT MONOHULL. You did, you said it G
You sad ANY. That what you said :^)

As I've said before; "UP YOURS!"

AND; "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!!"

Ole Thom