Foul Weather Sailing
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message ...

Two years ago I was aboard a Prout that had done three Atlantic crossings
without a hitch (actually both ways, which makes 6!).

So what, various people have crossed the atlantic on liferafts, canoes,
rowboats, 8-foot sailboats, and rafts without a hitch. An isolated
example or two does not the rule make.

Foul Weather Sailing
 

And yet, my catamaran has gone further in the last 4 years than your appliance box has
gone in the last dozen or so. You keep talking about "blue water sailing" but the most
you've done is to motor 50 miles over to the Bahamas.

I would concede that The Navigator may have seen some beat-up multis down where he is - it
is not a very forgiving part of the world. However, the conditions in the '40s are rather
different from the rest of the world. Your various comments imply that all cats capsize
everywhere, which is certainly not the case. An example (from memory, I admit): In the
infamous 1994 "Queen's Birthday Storm" one monohull was lost without a trace, several of
those abandoned were lost (a few recovered), one, a Westsail was scuttled after being
dismasted in a roll. There was one catamaran that was abandoned (the crew had virtually
no sailing experience) and later recovered with little damage.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Give it up if you can't do any better than that.

Navigator clearly has the upper hand in this discussion and
is speaking from factual, first-hand information and he
bears out my point that multis rarely cruise and those that
do are in danger of capsize and structural failure is inevitable.

Multis aren't real seagoing boats. They are a gimmick and
a stupid one at that. Just because you own a cat you are
trying to defend them but your defense is as inept as your
choice of vessels.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Nonsense.



"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...
Most cruisng cats thgat make it here here seem to be having their bridge
structures heavily repaired. Fact. just come to the yards here and check
it out!

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

I don't believe this has ever happened for a production cruising catamaran. Just
what
boats are you actually talking about?


"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...


It is also rare for a cruising mono to break up and sink. In fact, they
often are found with no-one aboard. I've never heard of that being the
case for a multi. Once a cat gets flipped the loads on the bridge
structure get really enormous due to water in the hulls and 'suction' on
them. This will lead to structural failure PDQ in a storm and that is
why they'll sink. Give a good monohull anytime for survivability.

Cheers MC



Oz1 wrote:



On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:32:55 +1200, The_navigator_©
wrote:





Explain why so many cats break up and sink after capsize?

Cheers MC




Nah, you've got it all wrong.
They break up, capsize, break up some more and then scatter or sink.

Thing is the ones you hear of are usually racing bred and going twice
as fast as an equivalent mono.

It's rare for a cruising multi to break up and sink.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Foul Weather Sailing
 

It is not specifics that define the rule but the preponderance
of evidence. Unfortunately for you, the preponderance of
evidence proves the unseaworthiness of mulithulls and will
continue to do so no matter the technology because the
only shape that can abide the restless strivings of the sea
is a monohull.

There are some things than can never be improved upon
and a monohull sailboat built to withstand the ravages of the
sea and fitted with positive floatation is a concept that will
never be improved upon.

Minimizing surface area is the key. Multis have way too
much surface area to ever be safe in a seaway. The sea
will always attack any man-made structure and will always
prevail in destroying said structure. Monohulls will survive
this relentless attack far longer than any multihull. This is the
very nature and essence of the sea and sailing upon her
bosom. Those who would insult her with ill-found toys
are doomed to being severely punished. Fact, whether
you like it or not!

Any nitwit who pretends to deceive himself into thinking
otherwise is a fool and one with a death wish to boot.

Nice knowing you Jeff.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
And yet, my catamaran has gone further in the last 4 years than your appliance box has
gone in the last dozen or so. You keep talking about "blue water sailing" but the most
you've done is to motor 50 miles over to the Bahamas.

I would concede that The Navigator may have seen some beat-up multis down where he is - it
is not a very forgiving part of the world. However, the conditions in the '40s are rather
different from the rest of the world. Your various comments imply that all cats capsize
everywhere, which is certainly not the case. An example (from memory, I admit): In the
infamous 1994 "Queen's Birthday Storm" one monohull was lost without a trace, several of
those abandoned were lost (a few recovered), one, a Westsail was scuttled after being
dismasted in a roll. There was one catamaran that was abandoned (the crew had virtually
no sailing experience) and later recovered with little damage.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Give it up if you can't do any better than that.

Navigator clearly has the upper hand in this discussion and
is speaking from factual, first-hand information and he
bears out my point that multis rarely cruise and those that
do are in danger of capsize and structural failure is inevitable.

Multis aren't real seagoing boats. They are a gimmick and
a stupid one at that. Just because you own a cat you are
trying to defend them but your defense is as inept as your
choice of vessels.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Nonsense.



"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...
Most cruisng cats thgat make it here here seem to be having their bridge
structures heavily repaired. Fact. just come to the yards here and check
it out!

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

I don't believe this has ever happened for a production cruising catamaran. Just
what
boats are you actually talking about?


"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...


It is also rare for a cruising mono to break up and sink. In fact, they
often are found with no-one aboard. I've never heard of that being the
case for a multi. Once a cat gets flipped the loads on the bridge
structure get really enormous due to water in the hulls and 'suction' on
them. This will lead to structural failure PDQ in a storm and that is
why they'll sink. Give a good monohull anytime for survivability.

Cheers MC



Oz1 wrote:



On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:32:55 +1200, The_navigator_©
wrote:





Explain why so many cats break up and sink after capsize?

Cheers MC




Nah, you've got it all wrong.
They break up, capsize, break up some more and then scatter or sink.

Thing is the ones you hear of are usually racing bred and going twice
as fast as an equivalent mono.

It's rare for a cruising multi to break up and sink.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Foul Weather Sailing
 

Nonsense - its true that the volume of a cat allows you to think of adding so much that it
is overloaded, but the "cruising necessities" are easily handled. My boat, for instance,
is one that allegedly suffers from this problem, especially since I have the twin diesel
option, but it really means that I shouldn't also get gensets and A/C. Even fully loaded
for a one year trip we easily outsailed most monohulls.

Last weekend we sailed 30 miles up the coast to Salem Bay. The wind was 10 to 12 knots,
not the best for a slightly undersailed cat, but we still did 5.5 to 7 knots, passing the
monohulls like they were standing still. Of the boats that left Boston with us, none were
in sight when we got to Marblehead. I would admit that when we got to M'head there were
several racing boats that were prepping for the Halifax race that had no trouble keeping
up. (BTW, all of the multihulls in the race finished near the front - but these aren't
cruising boats.)



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
of a Cat, but the advantages offered in space and comfort are huge, especially
for liveaboards who don't want to camp-out on a sub 40 foot mono.


You cannot load a catamaran down with all the necessary cruising
amenities and have it perform as well as a monohull, let alone be
considered fast. If space and comfort your wont then stick with
that flat in the city. You cannot take a flat to sea and expect it
to sail.

Foul Weather Sailing
 

It is not specifics that define the rule but the preponderance
of evidence.

Please direct us to specific evidence of a preponderance nature. That implies
MANY coumented cases of cruising cats suffering damage.
Let's see it!

RB

Foul Weather Sailing
 

You forget that I am a sailor

You claim to be a sailor, while making remarks that demonstrate little more
than a large collection of cruising world back issues.
You have yet to provide a large cache of evidence demonstrating that multi hull
cruisers suffer during long passages.

RB

Foul Weather Sailing
 

allegedly suffers from this problem, especially since I have the twin diesel
option, but it really means that I shouldn't also get gensets and A/C. Even
fully loaded
for a one year trip we easily outsailed most monohulls.

You COULD overload her (within reason) and she' d still be fine for most long
passages.

RB

Foul Weather Sailing
 

"Preponderance of Evidence"? You haven't presented one actual case. I can't really
address MC's anecdotal evidence from the Southern Ocean, but being 12,000 miles from where
you or I cruise its not really relevant. Why don't you present a few examples of cruising
cat capsizes within 2000 miles of where you sail?

I'll even help you - I know of two cases: about 15 or 20 years ago a cat flipped in a
hurricane near Bermuda. The crew survived several days inside but the owner died from
complications of diabetes. Several monohulls were lost nearby. The other case was about
5 years ago in the Abacos. A small charter cat, not set up for cruising, flipped while
carrying full sail sheeted in tight in 45 knots. The single handing skipper was down
below while the boat sailed on autopilot. The boat stayed on its side for about 2 hours
until the forestay broke. The boat was relatively undamaged until a cargo ship tried to
lift it with a crane and put a hole in the coachroof by lifting too quickly - it is back
in service now.

So how about it? If there is a "Preponderance of Evidence" why don't you present it?



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

It is not specifics that define the rule but the preponderance
of evidence. Unfortunately for you, the preponderance of
evidence proves the unseaworthiness of mulithulls and will
continue to do so no matter the technology because the
only shape that can abide the restless strivings of the sea
is a monohull.

There are some things than can never be improved upon
and a monohull sailboat built to withstand the ravages of the
sea and fitted with positive floatation is a concept that will
never be improved upon.

Minimizing surface area is the key. Multis have way too
much surface area to ever be safe in a seaway. The sea
will always attack any man-made structure and will always
prevail in destroying said structure. Monohulls will survive
this relentless attack far longer than any multihull. This is the
very nature and essence of the sea and sailing upon her
bosom. Those who would insult her with ill-found toys
are doomed to being severely punished. Fact, whether
you like it or not!

Any nitwit who pretends to deceive himself into thinking
otherwise is a fool and one with a death wish to boot.

Nice knowing you Jeff.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
And yet, my catamaran has gone further in the last 4 years than your appliance box has
gone in the last dozen or so. You keep talking about "blue water sailing" but the
most
you've done is to motor 50 miles over to the Bahamas.

I would concede that The Navigator may have seen some beat-up multis down where he
is - it
is not a very forgiving part of the world. However, the conditions in the '40s are
rather
different from the rest of the world. Your various comments imply that all cats
capsize
everywhere, which is certainly not the case. An example (from memory, I admit): In
the
infamous 1994 "Queen's Birthday Storm" one monohull was lost without a trace, several
of
those abandoned were lost (a few recovered), one, a Westsail was scuttled after being
dismasted in a roll. There was one catamaran that was abandoned (the crew had
virtually
no sailing experience) and later recovered with little damage.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Give it up if you can't do any better than that.

Navigator clearly has the upper hand in this discussion and
is speaking from factual, first-hand information and he
bears out my point that multis rarely cruise and those that
do are in danger of capsize and structural failure is inevitable.

Multis aren't real seagoing boats. They are a gimmick and
a stupid one at that. Just because you own a cat you are
trying to defend them but your defense is as inept as your
choice of vessels.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Nonsense.



"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...
Most cruisng cats thgat make it here here seem to be having their bridge
structures heavily repaired. Fact. just come to the yards here and check
it out!

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

I don't believe this has ever happened for a production cruising catamaran.
Just
what
boats are you actually talking about?


"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...


It is also rare for a cruising mono to break up and sink. In fact, they
often are found with no-one aboard. I've never heard of that being the
case for a multi. Once a cat gets flipped the loads on the bridge
structure get really enormous due to water in the hulls and 'suction' on
them. This will lead to structural failure PDQ in a storm and that is
why they'll sink. Give a good monohull anytime for survivability.

Cheers MC



Oz1 wrote:



On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:32:55 +1200, The_navigator_©
wrote:





Explain why so many cats break up and sink after capsize?

Cheers MC




Nah, you've got it all wrong.
They break up, capsize, break up some more and then scatter or sink.

Thing is the ones you hear of are usually racing bred and going twice
as fast as an equivalent mono.

It's rare for a cruising multi to break up and sink.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Foul Weather Sailing
 

It is not up to me to validate my claim. It is encumbent upon
you to disprove it. That is the way debate works. If you
cannot disprove my claim then you lose. It's as simple
as that.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
"Preponderance of Evidence"? You haven't presented one actual case. I can't really
address MC's anecdotal evidence from the Southern Ocean, but being 12,000 miles from where
you or I cruise its not really relevant. Why don't you present a few examples of cruising
cat capsizes within 2000 miles of where you sail?

I'll even help you - I know of two cases: about 15 or 20 years ago a cat flipped in a
hurricane near Bermuda. The crew survived several days inside but the owner died from
complications of diabetes. Several monohulls were lost nearby. The other case was about
5 years ago in the Abacos. A small charter cat, not set up for cruising, flipped while
carrying full sail sheeted in tight in 45 knots. The single handing skipper was down
below while the boat sailed on autopilot. The boat stayed on its side for about 2 hours
until the forestay broke. The boat was relatively undamaged until a cargo ship tried to
lift it with a crane and put a hole in the coachroof by lifting too quickly - it is back
in service now.

So how about it? If there is a "Preponderance of Evidence" why don't you present it?



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

It is not specifics that define the rule but the preponderance
of evidence. Unfortunately for you, the preponderance of
evidence proves the unseaworthiness of mulithulls and will
continue to do so no matter the technology because the
only shape that can abide the restless strivings of the sea
is a monohull.

There are some things than can never be improved upon
and a monohull sailboat built to withstand the ravages of the
sea and fitted with positive floatation is a concept that will
never be improved upon.

Minimizing surface area is the key. Multis have way too
much surface area to ever be safe in a seaway. The sea
will always attack any man-made structure and will always
prevail in destroying said structure. Monohulls will survive
this relentless attack far longer than any multihull. This is the
very nature and essence of the sea and sailing upon her
bosom. Those who would insult her with ill-found toys
are doomed to being severely punished. Fact, whether
you like it or not!

Any nitwit who pretends to deceive himself into thinking
otherwise is a fool and one with a death wish to boot.

Nice knowing you Jeff.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
And yet, my catamaran has gone further in the last 4 years than your appliance box has
gone in the last dozen or so. You keep talking about "blue water sailing" but the
most
you've done is to motor 50 miles over to the Bahamas.

I would concede that The Navigator may have seen some beat-up multis down where he
is - it
is not a very forgiving part of the world. However, the conditions in the '40s are
rather
different from the rest of the world. Your various comments imply that all cats
capsize
everywhere, which is certainly not the case. An example (from memory, I admit): In
the
infamous 1994 "Queen's Birthday Storm" one monohull was lost without a trace, several
of
those abandoned were lost (a few recovered), one, a Westsail was scuttled after being
dismasted in a roll. There was one catamaran that was abandoned (the crew had
virtually
no sailing experience) and later recovered with little damage.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Give it up if you can't do any better than that.

Navigator clearly has the upper hand in this discussion and
is speaking from factual, first-hand information and he
bears out my point that multis rarely cruise and those that
do are in danger of capsize and structural failure is inevitable.

Multis aren't real seagoing boats. They are a gimmick and
a stupid one at that. Just because you own a cat you are
trying to defend them but your defense is as inept as your
choice of vessels.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Nonsense.



"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...
Most cruisng cats thgat make it here here seem to be having their bridge
structures heavily repaired. Fact. just come to the yards here and check
it out!

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

I don't believe this has ever happened for a production cruising catamaran.
Just
what
boats are you actually talking about?


"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...


It is also rare for a cruising mono to break up and sink. In fact, they
often are found with no-one aboard. I've never heard of that being the
case for a multi. Once a cat gets flipped the loads on the bridge
structure get really enormous due to water in the hulls and 'suction' on
them. This will lead to structural failure PDQ in a storm and that is
why they'll sink. Give a good monohull anytime for survivability.

Cheers MC



Oz1 wrote:



On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:32:55 +1200, The_navigator_©
wrote:





Explain why so many cats break up and sink after capsize?

Cheers MC




Nah, you've got it all wrong.
They break up, capsize, break up some more and then scatter or sink.

Thing is the ones you hear of are usually racing bred and going twice
as fast as an equivalent mono.

It's rare for a cruising multi to break up and sink.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Foul Weather Sailing
 

Same is true of monos. Most never leave the slip.
This proves nothing.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
And most spend the majority of their existence tied
up to pilings or stored on the hard. I suppose the
hazards in these places are survivable even for a
multihull.


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...

You lose, neal. Most of the Prouts and other major brands are still
around, and
in good shape. Many of those have completed long voyages. They are still
in
service, so your claims are false, even worse; fabricated from the
outset.