The myth about living in a capsized catamaran is not myth, it has happened on several
occasions. Its also true that cruising cats have only capsized a few times, so they
actually have a high percentage of saving the lives of their crew.

Any situation that can flip a cat will be able to roll a mono - in either case, if you're
on deck at the time you have a serious problem. The catamarans have done a reasonable job
of protecting their crew, the same cannot be said for the monohulls.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Any decent monomaran will not sink because it gets rolled
360 degrees. The structure is strong enough to withstand
this treatment without taking on significant quantities of water.

The myth about it is better to be upside down and afloat
than right side up on the bottom is just that - myth. Try living
on the outside of the hulls on an upside down multihull some
time. You will not think it is such a great thing to be sure.


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Wrong again Neal. A mono will right it self to be sure.
Occasionally, on the bottom. The catamaran won't
right it self, but it'll still be floating. Also, you don't have
to washing machine effect in a cat. If you flip, you stay
flipped. If you prepare for that possibility, survivability
goes way up, because you can stay with the boat. You
don't need to purchase an expensive liferaft. The boat
becomes the liferaft, as it should.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

IN EVERY WAY THAT MATTERS, I should have said.
The items you listed like limited cabin space, small cockpits
etc. don't matter to real sailors. As a matter of fact limited
cabin space is better and a small cockpit is better as far
as real sailors are concerned. We don't want a floating
condo or a condo ashore for that matter like you lubbers
do. We want something safe and secure in which to sail.

Any multi-hull is markedly inferior as far as seaworthiness
is concerned compared to a proper monomaran. The reason
for this is well known and is because as proper monomaran
will recover from a capsize while a multimaran will remain
upside down. Try sailing an upside-down boat sometime,
that is, if you live through the violent turning and jarring that
occurs from the cornerish nature of a multimaran.

Your example of tens of thousands of cruising cats
is 'ludicrisp' (Mike Tysonspeak). It proves your lubberly
proclivities. Why else would the mention of 'folding' even
be imagined. One need only fold when one places a
cat near shore or ashore.

Priorities, lubberboy, priorities!

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Superior in every way? Are you daft?

Tris have a few advantages over cats: they tack better, they're usually
faster in light
air, there are some very neat folding designs. But overall, they don't
make it as a
cruising boat. Perhaps you've noticed that tens of thousands of
cruising cats have been
built, but there are virtually no cruising tris.

A few reasons: they bounce back and forth on the amas, they have limited
visibility,
they're hard to get into, they have limited cabin space, the cockpit is
usually very
small. When they are overloaded they become dangerous. These are not
drawbacks for a
racing boat, but they certainly don't help a cruiser.

On top of this, tris are much easier to capsize than cats; in fact the
vast majority of
multihull capsizes are tris.

Once again you've demonstrated a complete lack of understanding on the
topic. At least
you're consistent.

-jeff


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...


Tris are superior to cats in every way.

"Oz1" wrote in message
...
But a tri is OK!

That explains why the brand of sailboat with the largest number of circumnavigations is
probably Prout.

Almost all of the Prout and PDQ owners I know have done some extended cruising. Can you
say the same for Coronado owners? C&C owners?


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

"Oz1" wrote in message
...

It's rare for a cruising multi to break up and sink.

It's even more rare for a cruising multi to cruise.

So many? The actual number of cruising cats that have capsized is miniscule, depending on
how you draw the line perhaps only 5 or 10 in the last 50 years.

Drawing the line is important - clearly racing boats are in a different category from
cruising cats. It is accepted that if you don't capsize a racing tri on occasion you're
not pushing it hard enough. I don't like to consider cats under about 34 feet as offshore
seaworthy, since the general design does not scale down very well, and compromises are
made to fit into a slip.



"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...
Explain why so many cats break up and sink after capsize?

Cheers MC

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Wrong again Neal. A mono will right it self to be sure.
Occasionally, on the bottom. The catamaran won't
right it self, but it'll still be floating. Also, you don't have
to washing machine effect in a cat. If you flip, you stay
flipped. If you prepare for that possibility, survivability
goes way up, because you can stay with the boat. You
don't need to purchase an expensive liferaft. The boat
becomes the liferaft, as it should.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...


IN EVERY WAY THAT MATTERS, I should have said.
The items you listed like limited cabin space, small cockpits
etc. don't matter to real sailors. As a matter of fact limited
cabin space is better and a small cockpit is better as far
as real sailors are concerned. We don't want a floating
condo or a condo ashore for that matter like you lubbers
do. We want something safe and secure in which to sail.

Any multi-hull is markedly inferior as far as seaworthiness
is concerned compared to a proper monomaran. The reason
for this is well known and is because as proper monomaran
will recover from a capsize while a multimaran will remain
upside down. Try sailing an upside-down boat sometime,
that is, if you live through the violent turning and jarring that
occurs from the cornerish nature of a multimaran.

Your example of tens of thousands of cruising cats
is 'ludicrisp' (Mike Tysonspeak). It proves your lubberly
proclivities. Why else would the mention of 'folding' even
be imagined. One need only fold when one places a
cat near shore or ashore.

Priorities, lubberboy, priorities!

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message


...


Superior in every way? Are you daft?

Tris have a few advantages over cats: they tack better, they're usually


faster in light


air, there are some very neat folding designs. But overall, they don't


make it as a


cruising boat. Perhaps you've noticed that tens of thousands of


cruising cats have been


built, but there are virtually no cruising tris.

A few reasons: they bounce back and forth on the amas, they have limited


visibility,


they're hard to get into, they have limited cabin space, the cockpit is


usually very


small. When they are overloaded they become dangerous. These are not


drawbacks for a


racing boat, but they certainly don't help a cruiser.

On top of this, tris are much easier to capsize than cats; in fact the


vast majority of


multihull capsizes are tris.

Once again you've demonstrated a complete lack of understanding on the


topic. At least


you're consistent.

-jeff


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...


Tris are superior to cats in every way.

"Oz1" wrote in message


...


But a tri is OK!

Oz1 wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 22:20:04 +0930, Flying Tadpole
wrote:

Well I was, for a while, witht the original Flying Tadpole. But
trying to sail her on the middle harbour was a nightmare, as all
the gin palaces would rush over to get a close look. In the end
we gave up and just terrorised the canoes in Iron Cove, which was
our home ground anyway (Rozelle loony bin and all).

Flying Tadpole

I thought you'd always been a mexican.
My sister lived in Maida St Lilyfield.
Right opposite the nut factory.


Well, the top end of Foucart St wasn't that far away either

Chuck Kanter writes "there are only four documented cases of capsizes of cruising
catamarans while being cruised by owners or charterers" in the last 50 years.



"Oz1" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:18:51 +1200, The_navigator_©
wrote:

It is also rare for a cruising mono to break up and sink. In fact, they
often are found with no-one aboard. I've never heard of that being the
case for a multi. Once a cat gets flipped the loads on the bridge
structure get really enormous due to water in the hulls and 'suction' on
them. This will lead to structural failure PDQ in a storm and that is
why they'll sink. Give a good monohull anytime for survivability.

Cheers MC

"Although statistics are sparse, a study of 35 publicized multihull
capsizes between 1975 and 1985 contained only three cruisers, one
anchored in a 170-knot hurricane. Ninety-one percent were racers,
designed and sailed to the edge, and 60 percent occurred during racing
or record attempts. A full 54 percent of the boats were eventually
salvaged, some floating for months before retrieval. Ninety percent of
the crews survived, and half of those lost were on a single boat
shadowing the infamous 1979 Fastnet Race that claimed so many
monohullers."

http://www.2hulls.com/archive/Gen%20...apaulting.html


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

An interesting stat - not very relevant.


"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...
Ever hear of Oyster? Greatest number of circums per vessel built.

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

That explains why the brand of sailboat with the largest number of circumnavigations is
probably Prout.

Almost all of the Prout and PDQ owners I know have done some extended cruising. Can
you
say the same for Coronado owners? C&C owners?


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...


"Oz1" wrote in message


.. .


It's rare for a cruising multi to break up and sink.


It's even more rare for a cruising multi to cruise.

Not so because multis are fast enough that they capsize both
from pitch-poling and going over sideways whereas monohulls
being constrained by hull speeds rarely pitch pole. Furthermore
multis actually capsize easier sideways because once they get
to 90 degrees it's Katy bar the door while monomarans regularly
right themselves from a 90 degree position.

90 degrees!? Every catamaran experiences negative stability (ie, Katy bar the
door) well short of 99 deg.

I can't right off. I'd have to look in the book, which is in a box
in the garage. I'm sure it's pretty easy to find on a web search.
"The_navigator_©" wrote in message ...
Really? Can you name the boat?

Cheers MC

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

It happened in the 1979 Fastnet race. At least one multi was
found with no one onboard.
"The_navigator_©" wrote in message ...
It is also rare for a cruising mono to break up and sink. In fact, they often are found with no-one aboard. I've never heard of that being the case for a multi. Once a cat gets flipped the loads on the bridge structure get really enormous due to water in the hulls and 'suction' on them. This will lead to structural failure PDQ in a storm and that is why they'll sink. Give a good monohull anytime for survivability.

Cheers MC



Oz1 wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:32:55 +1200, The_navigator_©
wrote:

Explain why so many cats break up and sink after capsize?

Cheers MC

Nah, you've got it all wrong.
They break up, capsize, break up some more and then scatter or sink.

Thing is the ones you hear of are usually racing bred and going twice
as fast as an equivalent mono.

It's rare for a cruising multi to break up and sink.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Your observations are interesting but they don't seem to be backed up by facts. First
you're claiming that cats capsize and breakup, but the truth is it has probably never
happened to a production cruiser. Now you're saying you've seen waves you don't think a
cats can handle - but hundreds of Prouts have done circumnavigations without capsizes.
Almost all of the Caribbean charter cats got there on their own bottoms with (almost) no
problems.

Now you're saying the most cats aren't suitable for ocean passages. Are you claiming the
most monos are suitable? And you're claiming the cat can't go to windward? Most
cruising cats can go to windward as well as cruising monos. Structural damage? Again,
you're just making this up.



"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...
I take your point about racers pushing it (racing monos also get
broken) but the fact is I've seen waves with near sheer faces that
would surely flip a cat -but not a mono. While you may get knocked on
your ear you are nowhere near capsize and even if you do, with the wash
boards in you'll come straight back up (assuming you have a blue water
vessel). Even with wash board out, most monos will come back up even
though they will flood down bit. Don't forget that more than 95% of big
ocean crossing are made by monohulls with no problems at all. While a
cat is nice in fair winds, you have to plan for the worst and that is
where the mono is surely superior. Talk about being your life raft
upside down is nonsense. The vessel should never become a life raft!
Most cruising cats are completely unsuitable for ocean passages. They
have massive windows to break, weak rigs, poor manouverability etc etc.
Since they are not used to heeling their stowage is terrible. If you
fall 20' across the bridge deck when she goes to even a mild 45 degress
tell me about how your broken bones feel!

The only choice in a cat is to run off and if that puts you in the
dangerous quad then you are in big trouble. The fact is that monos
generally sail the oceans because they are safer in extreme condtions
than a cat. This may not be true for coastal vessels/passages with
rescue close at hand. Listen to what really experienced ocean sailors
(e.g. Blake or Knox-Johnson) say about which vessel is most scary in a
storm... I think the ability to go to windward in a mono is a big plus
wheras a cat simply cannot do it (structural failure is inevitable in
slamming condtions). Since the speed benefit of cruising cats is now a
thing of the past what's really the big advantage (I assume you are not
going to object to a bit of heel) ?

Cheers MC

Oz1 wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:18:51 +1200, The_navigator_©
wrote:



It is also rare for a cruising mono to break up and sink. In fact, they
often are found with no-one aboard. I've never heard of that being the
case for a multi. Once a cat gets flipped the loads on the bridge
structure get really enormous due to water in the hulls and 'suction' on
them. This will lead to structural failure PDQ in a storm and that is
why they'll sink. Give a good monohull anytime for survivability.

Cheers MC



"Although statistics are sparse, a study of 35 publicized multihull
capsizes between 1975 and 1985 contained only three cruisers, one
anchored in a 170-knot hurricane. Ninety-one percent were racers,
designed and sailed to the edge, and 60 percent occurred during racing
or record attempts. A full 54 percent of the boats were eventually
salvaged, some floating for months before retrieval. Ninety percent of
the crews survived, and half of those lost were on a single boat
shadowing the infamous 1979 Fastnet Race that claimed so many
monohullers."

http://www.2hulls.com/archive/Gen%20...apaulting.html


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Nonsense.



"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...
Most cruisng cats thgat make it here here seem to be having their bridge
structures heavily repaired. Fact. just come to the yards here and check
it out!

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

I don't believe this has ever happened for a production cruising catamaran. Just what
boats are you actually talking about?


"The_navigator_©" wrote in message
...


It is also rare for a cruising mono to break up and sink. In fact, they
often are found with no-one aboard. I've never heard of that being the
case for a multi. Once a cat gets flipped the loads on the bridge
structure get really enormous due to water in the hulls and 'suction' on
them. This will lead to structural failure PDQ in a storm and that is
why they'll sink. Give a good monohull anytime for survivability.

Cheers MC



Oz1 wrote:



On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:32:55 +1200, The_navigator_©
wrote:





Explain why so many cats break up and sink after capsize?

Cheers MC




Nah, you've got it all wrong.
They break up, capsize, break up some more and then scatter or sink.

Thing is the ones you hear of are usually racing bred and going twice
as fast as an equivalent mono.

It's rare for a cruising multi to break up and sink.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.