On 4-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

Yes, of course I know you know nothing sponsons, because if you did know
anything about sponsons it would have been obvious in what you've written in
this long rambling discussion.

Well, little man, you obviously have not been reading my posts, otherwise you'd
know I've been writing from personal experience testing Timmy boy's sponsons
on real kayaks.

You've spent a few minutes of time in kayaks in your whole life! How much of
that with sponsons? Get off yor high horse!

I claim experince in a range of small boats makes a person capable of
making accurate comparisons after 2-3 hours investigating a number of
different kayak models.

Bull****! I've spent years sailing (inland lakes and offshore, racing and cruising),
canoeing and kayaking on fla****er and WW - in a variety of different craft as
well. I've been taught by a number of the best sailors and paddlers I could find.

One thing I know is that one _cannot_ determine what a kayak can do with
only a short paddle. It takes several day's worth of paddling under widely
varying conditions to determine a kayaks true characteristics. As I've said
before - you are speaking from ignorance and self-aggrandizement.

You have no formal training and have no basis for comparison to what those
of us who know kayaks are capable of.

"Expert" is not a word I would use for myself

Opinionated fool yes, but you are certainly not qualified to give a meaningful
opinion. As I said - you have no relevant experience in kayaks and have
no basis for your wildly exaggerated statements about the efficacy of
sponsons on kayaks.

You've already proven your ignorance with ridiculous statements about
waxing kayaks, round hulls and your fictions about the historical record
of Inuit and other traditional kayaks.

Which precludes the use of sponsons.

No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread with
any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent
re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid.

Sponsons _are_ a re-entry aid for kayaks. Get a clue. Just because you
think they are not doesn't mean the rest of us should change the way
kayaking is approached. Look in any decent sea kayaking book - sponsons
_are_ a re-entry aid. They are _not_ part of the kayak, but an add-on
that is deployed when needed.

And I repeat for the umpteenth time - sponsons reduce the stability of a kayak
in rough conditions and will almost certainly lead to a capsize in breaking
waves. This is based on the fundamental characteristics of hulls in rough
water and on the experience of many people over many years.

From John Winters' article on stability of kayaks:
http://www.swiftcanoe.com/kayak/arti...sults.asp?ID=4

-Quote
For day paddling in benign conditions a more beamy boat will feel more secure
and serve nicely for novices. On the other hand, if breaking seas are expected,
then the narrower boat is best. Conversely if we spend extended periods of time
in open water then a beamier boat is best but with the qualification that it must be
ballasted sufficiently to deter capsize and must not be so beamy as to have
_excessive_initial_stability_ [my emphasis - as that provided by sponsons MD].
[...]
Nevertheless, sea kayaks with high form stability are always more susceptible to
capsize by breaking waves than a boat with less form stability. It is myth that
increasing beam increases safety... [or adding sponsons or other artificial stability
aids MD]
-End Quote

John Winters has designed a number of canoes and kayaks for both racing, touring
and WW. Examples include the Swift Kippawa canoe, the Swift Bering Sea kayak
and the QCC kayaks.

Yes but anyone with any boating experience can see themn comming from far
enougth away to get to shore.

Bull**** - I've experienced those squalls running into Lac des Chenes in sailboat
racing when I was a member of BBYC many years ago. They come in so
fast that a paddler well into the lake would _not_ have time to get to shore.
If you want to stay in little puddles then you can stay off the water if
storms come up. If you want to travel by kayak then you are, of necessity,
required to be able to deal with storms. Paddling off many ocean coasts
and Great Lakes regions, like parts of Notre Dame Bay in Newfoundland means
paddling for many kilometers with no safe landing along the way. If you can't
deal with this then you aren't ready for real sea kayaking.

Reading winds and weather patterns is basic to sailing. Its not an option
for sailing like it is for paddling.

Again your ignorance of kayaking is showing again. I was paddling with a new
kayaker last month and spent some time teaching him how to read the wind
and explaining why it's important. No good sea kayaker would go out on an
extended trip without weather knowledge. That's why many sea kayakers, like
myself, are licensed for marine VHF and use radios to get up-to-date weather
info. That's also why there are often articles on reading the weather in sea
kayaking magazines.

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Go.../Summer98.html

"Limited" is the word I used to describe your outlook and experience.

You know nothing of my knowledge and experience. It is certainly
wider than yours.

Years of sea kayaking under all conditions on the Great Lakes and oceans
and no upsets unless I wanted to. Kayaks are _not_ that unstable. Your
comments are based on ignorance.

Are you claiming capsize and re-entry is a non-issue? Or just a non-issue
yourself?

I never said anything of the kind. You claim that kayaks are unstable and
need sponsons. I'm claiming that they are not that unstable and that
there are many options for re-entry beyond just sponsons.

Agressivness like yours is what leads paddlers into coniditions where they
don't belong, not safety mindedness.

In what way? I tell people to make sure they are trained for the conditions that
they _will_ encounter (not the nice, benign ones they daydream about). That
includes knowing many techniques besides just sponsons.

Sponsons have advantages and disadvantages (some of the latter I've listed). Every
paddlers should learn about them and other rescue and re-entry aids and techniques.
Then they decide which ones they include in their repertoire. Blindly advocating
sponsons without a realistic consideration of the drawbacks, as you do, is nonsense.

You still know nothing about kayaks and kayaking and still insist you are always right.
You have not addressed any of the objections that I have made to your comments,
rather you just keep claiming to know more than me. Get a clue.

Mike