On 3/11/2012 5:51 PM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 1:07 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In , says...

On 3/11/2012 10:23 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/11/2012 10:14 AM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/11/2012 8:27 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:48 PM, JustWait wrote:
On 3/10/2012 11:28 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Oscar" wrote in message
.com...

On 3/8/2012 11:15 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:53:44 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:25:15 -0500, wrote:

On 3/7/2012 1:33 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In web.com,

says...

On 3/7/2012 8:46 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In ,

says...

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:57:23 -0500,
wrote:

In ,
says...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:00:39 -0800, "Califbill"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:36:10 -0500,

wrote:

In ,

says...

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2012...lectric-lemon/









Told you, and you laughed...snerk Sometimes it
pays to
look
at the
world with an open mind...

Has nothing to do with the technology and everything
to do
with
the
sales.

It has everything to do with the COST of the technology
tho.

Basically the problem is battery cost vs price.
These things are rich man's toys. If saving money is
your
objective,
buy a Cruze and put the left over $20,000-30,000 toward
gas.

I understand the government will subsidize your electric
car
purchase
to make that price delta look more attractive but
that does
not
reduce
the cost, it only transfers it to people who can't
afford to
buy
one.


-----------------------------------
Very true. Look at the subsidy for a Tesla. Average
income
of a
Tesla
buyer? $250k. As to technology. In 1919 an electric car
got 30
miles to
the charge. What does a Volt get? 30 miles. Not a lot of
technology
improvement in nearly a 100 years. Still down to battery
technology. Plus
where is the power to charge going to come from? They
say no
pollution.
What about that coal or oil fired generating plant?

Actually they had a range of about 100 miles, but you'd
probably
bitch
about the 20 mph top speed, the eisenglass windows,
and no
gasoline
backup.

It appears that the same problems they were having 100
years
ago
with
electric vehicles are the same problems they have today.

http://inventors.about.com/od/estart...c-Vehicles.htm








The initiation of mass production of internal combustion
engine
vehicles
by Henry Ford made these vehicles widely available and
affordable in
the
$500 to $1,000 price range. By contrast, the price of the
less
efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to
rise. In
1912,
an
electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline car
sold
for
$650.

I'm waiting on the fuel cell. You people talk like the
Wright
Brothers
were idiots for not building the 747, first. Maybe Edison
should
have
invented the halogen bulb, first.

You will notice that the Wright brothers plane runs on the
same
fuel
that today's 747 runs on.

I don't know where you came up with that gem of
misinformation,
but
it
is demonstrably totally wrong. (Like the rest of your
assertions.)

The response you'll type to this will be possible
because of
all of
the money spent 50+ years ago on the space program,
which a
lot of
people said was idiotic and useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Things change and the gas station as we know it is on the
same
path
as
the blacksmith at the end of the 19th century.

The fueling station will not change for another 50 years.

You will soon be proven wrong. Look for LPG light trucks
and
cars in
the next model year or so, with road tractors soon to
follow. It
will
be a small leap to add electrical power.

http://www.extraordinaryroadtrip.org/research-
library/technology/liqufied-petroleum/ad-draw.asp

The drawbacks of LPG include:

In cold conditions, below 32 degrees Fahrenheit, starting
could
be a
problem because of the low vapor pressure of propane at low
temperatures.
One gallon of LPG contains less energy than a gallon of
gasoline.
The driving range of a propane vehicle is about 14 percent
lower
than
a
comparable gasoline-powered vehicle.
LPG is generally higher priced than other fuel alternatives
such
as
CNG and gasoline.
There are over 4,000 LPG refueling sites in the US, more
than
all of
the other alternative fuels combined. Most of these
stations,
however,
are not readily available to consumers on a 24/7 basis.
This is
one of
the reasons why most on-road applications are bi-fuel
vehicles,
which
burn LPG and gasoline.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg

You will notice that the Lion battery is way down near
0,0.

The Lion battery's days are numbered. Better technology is
just
around
the corner.

They are working on the heat problem. They haven't come
up with
anything
better, NiMh isn't any better. The plastic batteries are not
ready for
prime time. And the ceramic batteries are not cost
effective to
manufacture.

LPG is NOT higher priced than gasoline.

By what measure?

Cost.

Cost per gallon? Cost per pound? Engineers are supposed to be
precise
and un ambiguous. So far you ain't doin so good.

Does it matter? Considering the current respective costs,
cheaper is
cheaper.

At this time it is cheaper per gallon.

At this time it is cheaper per pound.

At this time it is cheaper in cost per distance covered.

At this time it is cheaper in BTU consumed.

It is cheaper to use as a fuel.
----------------------------------------
Cost per MPG? LPG is about $3+ around here.

$3 ? It costs $60 to fill a 20# grill tank? Holy crap! I can
get one
filled, retail, for a little over $14.00, including tax.

I buy 33# for about the same price including tax, delivered. (This
company won't do consumer tanks.) Who knows what the stuff really
costs? And what the markup is.


-----------------------------
You seemed to be Math challenged. $3 a gallon is not $3 a pound.
Around
here the tank exchange is about $18 and they are not full fill.

Where is the benefit of tank exchange when propane stations seem
to be
everywhere?


The EPA makes it difficult for new distributors to put above ground
tanks, and filling stations have lots of other regulations... But
almost
any retailer can make room for a locked 10x10 foot cage with
ready to
go, filled tanks...

I like the convenience of having the attendant thae the tank out
of my
trunk, fill it, and put it back, * full*.


Yeah, I like the convienience of driving up to Home Depot, give
them the
old tank, and get a new filled one.. No waiting for anyone to fill
anything. No huge tanks taking up half the parking lot, etc...

I'll have to time the guy filling my tank next time, I can't imagine it
taking more than a minute.


In a perfect world, yes... We have several stations around here and I
stil use them but it's not as easy. You pull in and grab your tank and
walk it out back where the filling station is. At least around here it
is usually off in a corner somewhere with a good buffer zone, locked
fence, locked nozzle etc... Then you go inside and wait for the
attendant to free up, anywhere from 30 seconds to five minutes before
you go out to unlock the gate, unlock the nozzle, zero the scale, purge
the tank, fill and weigh the tank, wait for the guy to fill three more
tanks from others who pulled in while you were filling (we obviously
don't have filling stations on every corner here like you do), and carry
your tank back to your car, go in and pay.... I just don't see why you
won't accept that it's easier to pull up to the pen, pull out a full
tank and pay for it inside... unless of course you are another Plume
type character that just want's to argue for the sake of arguing...

I can get my tank filled at my local hardware, 20# worth, quicker than I
can get one replaced and payed for at Home Depot or just about anywhere.
AND, I get the real 20#, not 15. By the way, you don't "purge" the tank.

This is turning into a really stupid thread.


Cause some people can't be wrong... and if they are they argue even
more. It's what they are here for, I can't imagine the childhood of such
dim-witted folks...