snip
While we would like the country to see things our way, the "freedom
fighters" in Iraq seem to have other ideas. For the US to win, they have
to
do what we want them to do - quit! All the Iraqis fighters have to do is
keep the USA engaged until we spend ourselves to death. With people like
you
around, they may be able to pull it off.


But if we pull out now, they win, period. You do realise the
psychological damage that would do to our cause and the credibility
damage that it would bring to our military and our ability to "get the
job done"?

We are in a bad situation. You are suggesting that we cut our losses,
and pull out.

Not yet.

I *was* suggesting that we not get mired in this before it started. You
seemed to think that was a bad idea then; can you remember that far back?
Does it sound like such a bad idea now?

Since we *are* in it - our goal should be to minimize loses while getting
the job done. The administration is still trying to hang on to control while
asking for assistance. Why in the world would anybody get involved without
getting a piece of the action? Exactly how stupid does little Bush think the
rest of the world is? It is getting to be time to suck it up and pass the
baton to the UN. That means that it is time to let them have some say in how
things are done. It means loosening our grip on potential oil supplies and
rebuilding contracts.

End of story.

But you are not considering the emotional boost that this
will give to terrorists the world over. It would send a loud and clear
message that we do not have the stomach for this type of war, and that
we're at their mercy.

For someone who does not do much reading and has never spent any time
talking to these people, you seem to know a lot about the psychology of the
Arab people. Not! Just how stupid do you think these people are? I don't
think they need the USA to tell them if they are winning or loosing - they
can figure these things out for themselves.They already know that the
emperor has no clothes!

I'd rather drop a nuke or two than pull out in
shame..... It's pretty much a given that these people don't like us.

Kill them to liberate them - Where have I heard that before?

In any case - the population was ruthlessly oppressed by a small group
before we dropped by. Now you want to continue the oppression of these
people by nuking them? Dave, you should be ashamed! So how would you better
than Saddam? Would it buy our security? I think not. On the other hand, it
might turn a lot of people that did not care one way or the other into
vengeful enemies. If you remember the OK city bombing, some of the ****ed
off people might even be American citizens!

I
personally don't care if they do "like" us as long as, either through
respect or fear, they leave us alone. With that goal in mind, our
options open up a bit.

I don't think they respect or fear us. Actually, I think that they are
laughing at us! They *are* just killing us; the longer we stay there, the
better they will get at it. At this point, little Bush has driven us into a
box - We have very few viable options. I did outline them in march while the
war was still running hot.

http://www.google.com/groups?q=end+g...nsc04&rnum= 1

Do you see *any* other options besides the ones outlined?

Which brings us to your earlier point about this being an unwinnable
situation. In order for "negotiations", rather than battles to occur,
both sides need a face saving "out" in order to change the direction of
the campaign.

Negotiations? Now there's a hoot! Um, who do you intend to talk to? What
embassy do you go to? What do you have to offer that is better then *them*
winning? Can you think of any carrot that they might go for?

Capitulation would be seen as a sign of weakness.

Who are we trying to kid? We can run our country into the ground without
ever impressing them. Do you have any idea what *they* are thinking? I do
spend some time reading some of what is available on the web and exchanging
the odd email with Arab friends. I don't think we are making the impression
you are hoping for.

There
would have to be something which allows us to pull out gracefully, while
not giving in to terrorists. I can't see any way to pull that off as of
yet.

Why would *they* negotiate? We are in the loosing position. *They* are very
aware of that. All they have to do is more of what they are doing. As I have
stated before, this area has been invaded several times and the locals have
formed some very effective strategies. They have driven off every super
power that has dropped by. All we can do at this point is loose more money
and people without any possibility of winning. We can't get to the people
behind this without killing everybody. They *do* know that.

In the revolutionary war the rascally colonists refused to stand and fight
like they were supposed to; instead they hid behind trees and killed lots of
red coats. The administrations "dash to Baghdad" killed anybody that opposed
us, and left all tens of thousands of soldiers in the field. Now *they*
stage 15 or so raids a day, blow up a power station or town hall, and fade
back into the crowd. This is much better for them than standing and fighting
in the open desert like we hoped they would. Instead they hide behind the
civilian population and kill some US soldiers. Do you see any parallels
here?

Mark Browne

PS - I told you so!