On 17-Aug-2010, bpuharic wrote:

You don't "get" your pay, you earn your pay, or hopefully earned it
(unless
your'e incompetent and protected by the mob) Once you're paid, veryone's
even, no one owes you anything. What you "get" from that point forward
depends on your viability as a useful laborer wage-earner.

uh, who made up this rule? you're surprised that the middle class has
no money with your view of wages?

Supply and demand is the rule - in the current U.S., there is a huge supply
of labor, but little demand.


and, no, it doesn't depend on ability. middle class wages have not
grown in 37 years.


how is that accounted for in your 'utility' view given that OTHER
countries haven't seen a run up in the GINI coefficient like the US
has?

oh. you don't know what the GINI coefficient is...

I know what it is, don't care, and it's accurate. Millions of people doing
nothing and a few being productive skew the scale to "inequality" which is a
perfectly natural occurrence.




and if labor is no longer needed...

why was there full employment for the 10 years before bush's
depression?

No depression, no recession -

1) a flood of money that bloated the financial marketplace as a result of
IRAs and 401k's etc., such accounts only becoming available to the
average
schlub in the early 80's, That money supply made the cost of investment
(and
borrowing) low so investments were made. and 2) the personal computer
industry, which employed millions and spawned complementary
industries/services. That's all that gave jobs to the otherwise
unemployable.

nope. the money from 401k's is deferred spending FROM the middle
class. money that wall street coveted and thought, like you, the
middle class didn't deserve.

401k's were a means for the feds to pander to the masses wanting independent
investment. If you put it in a risky position, once again, it's your
behavior. 401k's were never mandatory. The investments in companies went to
hell because of the faulty house of cards. All investments are wagers.
Intangible investments are pure wagers based on "gee I hope."



again, if labor is no longer needed, why did this happen only in the
last 3 years?

I explained that 10 messages ago - the markets dried up for (then) new
products, and producers had to move overseas to compete with unabated
foreign onslaught.

Let's pretend for a moment you are productive and have a little company
making furniture in your home town, Weasel **** Creek, Arkansas. One day
you notice large chains are selling a thousand times as much furniture as
you are, albeit shoddy, all imported from East Butt**** China (which cost
the reseller pennies). Their customers are dragging the junk home (in
Toyota's etc) at prices 85% of your prices. You have no business. What do
you do? 1) Close the business and ****can your employees, or if you have
the wherewithal, 2) move overseas, and/or import also. Now all the employees
that are left are retail sales stooges. POOF went the middle class
(managers, designers, skilled trades, etc). Just for ****s and giggles,
expand that occurrence across nearly every industry, and ask, "where did the
jobs (middle class) go?? I'd suspect you could even figure this out. The
government implemented the trade policies making it possible, and the
purchasing public went along with the demise. Worse yet, the purchasing
public will do NOTHING to reverse the trend. That's why a reversal is not
possible.



and jobs to the otherwise unemployable? what the hell does THAT mean?

Unskilled labor requires no skills.


During the same period (1992 or 1993 and beyond) began the greatest
escape
of productive output ever seen, and will never be seen again (too little
to
leave). Automobiles, steel, machinery, tools and dies, refined alloys,
electronics, televisions, consumer goods - all off to Mexico and China
due
to trade agreements promoted and put into place by Bush 1, Clinton and
Bush
2.

When the paper investment market burst (I predicted it for 10 years; the
real estate orgy was obvious to anyone), the PC market reached maturity
and
finally left the U.S. in combination with the simultaneous escape of
firms
having to leave the U.S., unemployment skyrocketed. (fear by the consumer
kills retail - but so what? It's al foreign anyway - who gain's - Walmart
jerkimo's?) Where will future employment come from? Prisons, minimum
wage
retail sales and scams like the financial markets, insurance and
medical/legal fraud. Prisons and retail will employ many but not
reestablish a middle class; the remainder is too small of a group. The
current condition is the new "service economy" you've heard discussed but
not described, hundreds of millions of poor people and a hundred thousand
high income people. There is no recession, "it" won't "get better."
(Unless
you get to another country where opportunities exist, to simulate the
former
U.S.)

uh no. there IS a recession caused by the artificial creation of
financial instruments, primarily CDO's

OK, the U.S. government bails you out (with your own money) then, where do
the jobs come from? They will NOT be coming to the United States.


CDO's went from ONE trillion in 1997 to SIXTY TWO TRILLION in 2007.

why? because wall street got greedy.

They held a gun to your head? Nope - you undermined the output the paper
was based upon.


home ownership stayed constant at about 64% of the population. what
changed was wall street created a bubble in housing prices,

Congress created a BOGUS bubble of real estate prices by encouraging banks
to loan money to people that couldn't afford the loan (bad loans, short term
loans). People failed to make the payments, the market value (hyperinflated)
diminished and tons of useless paper was held by the financial institutions.


in LIEU OF
wage increases. rather than PAYING people good wages, investors
impoverished the middle class and ran up the price of our houses so we
could use them as piggy banks.

Investors don't pay many people wages, productive companies making tangible
products do. You elected "people" that undermined that condition,. then
purchased the same overpriced crap that undermined your opportunities.
"Wall Street" is actually a small group of people (getting schmoozed by the
scumbags you elect)


we then borrowed against these to cover expenses since our WAGES WERE
DECREASING vs inflation

the CDO market collapsed when people couldn't afford to borrow and
spend

Investors do NOT borrow and spend without demand. Every day you hear
assholes in the media talking about firms unwilling to spend. NO company is
going to invest or hire unless there is demand for the products. If money
were available "free" (invalid concept) there would be no borrowing - there
has to be demand, and demand is minimal. Few companies (,maybe 1%) produce
at 100% capacity. When demand rises, they increase output with the assets
(equipment, labor) they already have. When demand rises above their capacity
to produce, THEN investment is made, and lastly, labor hired if necessary.
Labor is the LAST thing any company increases.


if the elites had PAID DECENT WAGES NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED

Decent wages are part of demand. If no one needs you, why pay you at all?
Or should the former U.S. adopt some Marx principles?


but wall street greed destroyed America

You destroyed "America" (no such country, but you're influenced by
television), and you not willing to correct your own damn behavior.

and the right wing continues to tell us how the unregulated free
market creates wealth

WHERE IS IT?

It isn't unregulated; investment and output is punished in the former United
States. There is no recession, because there is nothing to "turn around."

I should write a book - "Elementary Economics for Dummies," but then you
have to learn to read.

Learn basic Inglés, I'm getting tired of spell checking your convoluted
"logic."