wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:30:28 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
Ok. So, what do you propose? Should we allow the Iraqi gov't to stand on
its
own two feet or should be help if necessary? Do we really want that
place
to
descend into chaos?


It will descend into some degree of chaos, no matter what we do.
There is no way to get out without getting out. Southeast Asia was
chaos for a few years after we left but now it is pretty much what our
government always wanted it to be, a trading partner and a market for
our cigarettes and beer.

It's unclear that this is true. We've pulled back quite a bit, and the
violence has increased, but it's not out of control. I think it's too
early
to just leave at this point. We'll likely have a role in the region there
for a long time.

Are we going to be the worlds policeman forever? That may have made
sense when we were rich but we are broke.

Did I or anyone say "forever"? I guess we do what we do until the people
elect someone else.

Huh? Torture has been pretty well-defined since the Spanish Inquisition.
We
signed a treaty not to do it, we've prosecuted our own soldiers in the
past
for it, we've put others on trial as well. It's quite clearly defined. We
should not be in that business. The situation needs to be fully
investigated
and those responsible need to be held accountable.

That is the problem. You confuse torture like ripping body parts off
and inviceration with sleep depravation and water boarding (something
that is a standard part of SEAL training).

Waterboarding, for example, as been around since then, and it is torture.
There are always worse things I suppose, but I don't understand your point.
A little bit of torture is still torture.

I doubt the people who were tortured by the gestapo would think it was
the same. The military established what were legal interrogation
methods and then went back on it.

Our military? Nope. Waterboarding has always been illegal here, at least in
modern times.

I grew up knowing my phone was tapped. My mom worked for Hoffa on his
legal team. That is chilling on 2 counts, warrantless taps and lawyer
client privilege. It is pretty chilling for a high school kid to see
his conversations with his girlfriend on an FBI wire tap transcript.
I am not a Kennedy fan.

Not sure what Kennedy has to do with it, but ok.

Picked up? Physically? I've been stopped before and asked if they could
search the car. I said no, politely of course. My kids were asleep. They
didn't like it much, but they let us go. Of course, I didn't look like
much
of a threat with two sleeping in the car. They didn't give me a ticket
even
though I was "speeding."

When I was stopped it wasn't really a question that cold be answered
with a no. It was, can we search your car now or do you want to wait
here for us to get a warrant? They can "search" your car with a dog
without a warrant and if they SAY the dog alerted they have probable
cause even when nothing was found. They can also detain you until the
dog gets there as long as it is a reasonable time (undefined). All
they have to do is look busy processing the traffic stop until the dog
shows up.

Sounds like normal procedure if there's something suspicious or you're
driving while black or latino.


--
Nom=de=Plume