Eisboch wrote:

"thunder" wrote in message
t...
On Tue, 12 May 2009 15:50:23 -0400, Wizard of Woodstock wrote:


1 - The "dirty hands" dilemma which is really a cost/benefit analysis.
The usual circumstances are the "ticking bomb" scenario in which a bomb
is set to go off and kill thousands of people - the cost of harming one
human life to save thousands of human lives is defensible and/or
excusable. This argument basically states that while morally
indefensible, the end result justifies the means.

If, in truth, there were a "ticking bomb", the torture argument does
become hazier, but the reality is that scenario is extremely rare, and
doesn't apply in this case. This was torture used for plain old
"ordinary" intelligence. When you put people in a violent situation,
there will be torture, and illegal killings. That can be put down as
"**** happens", but when you allow torture as policy, you place this
country on the same level as Pinochet's Chile, Stalin's Soviet Union,
Hitler's Germany...


To me, it isn't whether torture works or not, it's about what it says
about us. We're ****in' barbarians.



Tell me.

Are we as barbaric as a society who beheads innocent people and posts
the video on the internet for all to see including the family of the
victims?
Are we as barbaric as a group who sneak into the USA, hijack airplanes
and fly them into buildings in downtown NY city, killing about 3000?
Are we as barbaric as a group who instill lifelong hatred into 6 year
old kids and promote the killing of the "infidels" as a religious honor
and duty?

And that's not considering how they treat their own who don't obey.

Sorry. I have no sympathy for them.

Eisboch




1. Since we still have capital punishment in this country, and in many
cases it is painful to the victim, I'm not sure we are on high enough
moral ground to bitch about the ways other societies execute their
criminals or those they consider criminals. Also, we were involved in
the trials that led to the execution of Saddam Hussein, and if you
recall, videos of his hanging were on the news everywhere. We're at
least guilty by association in that public display, even though it was
carried out by our new warm friends and allies, the Iraqis.

Also, don't forget that we are one of the only "modern" western
countries that still has capital punishment, and that of all modern
western countries, we imprison the highest percentage of our people.

2. As horrific as 9-11 was to us, we have killed far more innocent
Iraqis with our bombings of their cities, towns, and villages. We don't
talk much in this country about the devastation we have caused to Iraq
and Iraqis, a country and people who were virtually uninvolved in 9-11.

3. We have thousands upon thousands of crazed conservative christians in
this country who instill lifelong hatred into their children towards
others in society (e.g., gays) who do not believe as they do, and
sometimes those children go out and commit violence in the cause of
their religious beliefs. We don't have as much of it as the Muslim
world, but we have it.

Your post ignores the fact that whatever high moral ground this country
occupied was given up by the actions of the George W. Bush
administration. We may not be down in the sewer with the fundie
Islamists, but we certainly were taken right to the gutter.

In short, the differences between the way the fundie Muslims abuse
people and the way we do here are a matter of degree.

The damage inflicted on this country by Bush and his crowd will plague
us for generations.