Stephen Trapani wrote:
jeff wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:
jeff wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:
jeff wrote:


Think about what you're saying. Cheney, who was selected by Bush as
his running mate, so badly wanted to be *vice-president* that he
surreptitiously promised to sacrifice the well being of the country
so these companies could make billions and billions of dollars in
profits.

No. He did it out of habit. It's the system he knows, the people
he trusts. It just turns out that his friends, relatives,
associates etc. are the ones who make money.

So anyone with a habit of taking such huge risk

What risk? I'd bet that Cheney could reveal the identity of a secret
agent just for political purposes and get away with it!

So you think massive corruption worth billions isn't much of a risk. I see.

When you make the rules, the risks are minimal. When your chief-of-staff
will take the fall, the risks are minimal. And for billions of
dollars, the risks are acceptable. If you're connected enough, the SEC
doesn't bother to investigate when you dump stock a few weeks before
announcing major losses. Only a few ever get punished - that's only
when the crimes are in the Enron scale.


to do so much for the people he loves

Omigod! You're pouring it so thick!

No, this is your theory. You're saying he's doing it for his friends. He
must love them or really really like them, or what? Why is he doing this
then if it's not love?

Oh, I thought you were claiming he (or "they" in general) do it "for
love of country." No, as I said, favors are given because that's the
way the system works. Give someone from a well connected family a small
stake in a business, perhaps a baseball team, and suddenly a stadium is
built with public funds. Out of love? No, that's something you keep
bringing up. Its a way of life.


Seriously, with rhetoric like this you're pretty much admitting you're
full of ****!

but not for himself is generally considered a wonderful wonderful
person, right? I mean the story is normally how evil of a person it
takes to do what he does. Do these pieces really seem to fit?

Perfectly! Your nonsense is a perfect example of "repeat the bull****
often enough and enough of the naive voters may buy it." How many of
the voters thought the last election was really about gay marriage?

Don't you get what I'm saying? Now you seem to be suggesting Cheney
doesn't love his "chums" that he is acquiring billions for. Why is he
doing it then????? He's just some freak of nature who has a habit of
trying to steal billions of dollars for someone else?

No, he's just dealing in the world he helped create. You're trying to
base an argument on "rich people would never commit a crime because they
have too much to loose."


It hasn't really
gotten average citizens of democratic countries any more rights,
priviliges, or benefits than any form of government that has come
before it, or more than any other country currently on earth.

Ah, so now you're claiming the rich and powerful deserve anything they
can grab because some of the people have more rights.

No, *you* are the one who said things are the same as they've been for
thousands of years before democracy existed.

Not exactly the same, obviously, but unchanged in many ways.

Perhaps you should read a basic history book. Read about the Patricians
and Plebeians in ancient Rome. Even after centuries of fighting when
the Plebeians were given equal rights, the wealthy families ruled. All
that really changed was that Plebeians could rise to power as the old
Patrician families died out.

Whether the common folk have right stamped on bronze tablets, or written
in the Magna Carta or the Constitution doesn't change the fact that the
rich and powerful are rich and powerful.



The children of the wealthy get their "youthful excesses" expunged,
while the same violation means 15 years for others. One could go on
all day on this theme, but only a fool believes the rich and poor are
really equal under the law.

Well, the average rich individual supports many many times more of the
governments expenses than the average poor person. You know that, right?

Well duh, they enjoy a privileged position.

They even pay a larger percentage of their income. Did you know that?

That is one of the myths that Rush loves to spout, but it simply is not
true. If you think I'm wrong, bring it on!

They do have ways of making it less, but it's still way way more than
the poor guy. Like, say, a million dollars compared to five thousand.

Do you have a point here? Because someone just getting by only pays $5K
in taxes, someone else making millions should only pay $5K?



It's very easy to see this as unfair, especially if the rich person
worked hard for his money. He isn't using any more of the government
than the poor person.

Oh, really??? What color is the sky in your world, Steve?

Why is he having to pay so much more? Why do you
resent him being able to decrease it?

Did I say I resent it? Frankly, I benefit from it! Everyone has a
right to lobby for their position. The question is, why do the
conservatives love to make up nonsense to support their positions? The
answer is, their policies only benefit to top few percent, so they need
issues like gay marriage to win elections!


Democracy is just a farce meant to hold the ordinary person down as
has happened for millennia.

Have I got that right?

Yes, that is the label the right wingnuts like to pin on anyone that
protests against their crimes.

So, okay, you think democracy has helped the average person, but not
much.

I'm not trying to quantify anything. Democracy has made a profound
difference. But the rich and powerful are still rich and powerful.

They're still getting screwed. Or, what are you saying?

Its a fact of life that people who do not look out for their own
interest get screwed. Its a fact of life that some people in power will
misuse that power. Are you claiming any different?